1 1/2 on a Tenor

[Jazz Ambassador]

Hi all,

I've been playing for about 12-14 weeks now. When I started, I went out and bought the only reeds I could find (I live in a 3rd world country): 1 1/2 Vandorens. My teacher said he thought they were too soft, so I mail ordered some 2 1/2 Vandorens, and that's what I've been playing on...until today.

Today I started to practice, discovered that my reed was blown, and then discovered (d'oh!) it was my last 2 1/2. In desperation, I dug out the 1 1/2's I had inititially purchased and continued to practice.

What I discovered was that I sounded much better than I had on the 2 1/2's. My sound was fuller, and the bane of my existence these last 3 months -- jumping an octave when playing :line0: :space0: :line1: or :space1: -- was suddenly no longer a problem.

Both folks hanging out on these boards and my teacher have suggested that 1 1/2 is too soft for a tenor being played by a full-grown man, and as an amateur I bow to greater experience. At the same time, my experience tonight has me seriously thinking about sticking with softer reeds.

So, anyone care to:
a) validate my experience;
b) shoo me back to my 2 1/2's; or
c) just generally offer some wisdom on this little story?

Thanks in advance.

John

[UncleClark]

I am also new to the sax and have been playing about 2 months now. I experimented with Rico Royal 2 and also 2-1/2 and I prefer the 2's.

I'd use whatever works for you. I have played the guitar for quite some time and this reed strength thing is analogous to string guage in guitars. Heavy guage strings supposedly give you better tone, etc but are harder to play. Sound familar?

[cleger]

What are you playing for a mouthpiece? That can make a huge difference in the choosing of appropriate reeds. I use everything from a rico jazz select #2 medium to a Vandoren jaZZ #3 1/2 depending which mouthpiece I am using. The tip opening and the facing can make a big difference in which reed will work best for you. A 1 1/2 is a very soft reed but if it works right now why not use it.

I am also a relative beginner so take my advice for what it is, the ramblings of someone who is no expert.

[BassManJim]

I too, am new to the Sax, about 4 months, and prefer a Rico Royal #2 on Tenor ..... I do have a musical background (Guitar and Bass) and have heard the theory that reed strength is similar to string guage in relationship to tone thickness. I don't necessarily agree.

The predominant theory seems to be that the best reed is the one that works best for you, on the mouthpiece that you are using, and has nothing to do with a persons "age". At least this is my understanding.

All musicians are on a quest for perfect tone. Sax players are looking for the perfect mouthpiece/reed/embouchere (sp?) combination. In this regard it is my understanding that the brand and type of reed make more of a difference in tone,than does the strength #.

So if a VanDoren 1 1/2 works well for you, I don't see a compelling reason to change reeds. If your teacher is giving you grief over reed strength, especially at this stage of your playnig, perhaps that is a compelling reason to change teachers?

......Jim

[JL]

I agree with cleger that the mpc is a big factor. In general, a larger tip opening requires a softer reed. But if you're a relative beginner, you might not want a huge tip opening, and my guess is you aren't playing on one now.

Maybe you should split the difference and try some #2 reeds. If they are still too hard then go with the softer reeds, but as your embouchure develops, you'll find you will want to move up a bit.

[bari-gadje]

I've been playing Rico Royal 2 reeds since the 1980s and have never felt the need to step up. Anytime I have tried harder reeds I have been glad to get back to them. Play the reeds you sound good on and are comfortable with.
" Happiness is a wet Rico reed "

[baylistenor]

Vandoren 1.5 is like rico 2 or maybe harder.Vandoren are often harder than the number suggests.
I know a pro "Soulman" who plays vandoren 1.5 here in Manchester and gets a great sound!

[Jazz Ambassador]

Thanks for the input, everybody. Maybe I'll give Rico 2's a shot, too.

Since several people asked, I'm using the Kessler Custom 50OL7 mouthpiece that shipped with my Kessler sax.

[Canadiain]

As its based on a florida link 7, that would give it a tip opening of about 0.100" I think.

Nothing wrong with a soft reed, its not like the better the player the higher the number or anything, but you need to take the mouthpiece into consideration. Im guessing the manchester soulman has a lot more than 0.100 as a facing opening.

For a beginner I think the Kessler is fairly open, compared to say those student standbys the Selmer S80 C** or Meyer 6 (0.080") So it might prefer the softer end of the reed scale, but Im thinking a 1.5 or 2 would be a bit soft in the long run, and that you might struggle with the softer reed to get a good sound and response in the higher range of the instrument.

Ive found a soft reed will make producing low notes easier, and generally be OK playing softly, and will offer less resistance and less of a work out for your undeveloped embouchoure, which might be why you prefer it, but it could lead to a weak embouchoure in the long run and hold back your development as you wont learn to get that supporting air flow that a harder reed will require.

Do you find that if you are playing really loud you can "overblow" the reed, or that you get a lot of squeeks or buzzyness sometimes? Both are signs that you may need a harder reed. Basically you want the softest reed that you CANT overblow, no matter how hard you try.

In short, yes, you probably feel its easier to play a softer reed, but you might not be getting the best out of yourself or your horn in the long run. In effect, playing a soft reed will allow your lips to slack off and grow weaker, not a desirable characteristics for lips that want to play sax.

[fballatore]

Wow, no wonder you're happier with 1 1/2s. As Canadiain says, the Kessler mouthpiece has a 0.100" facing, which is typically much more open that a beginner should be using. A beginner should be using a mouthpiece in the .080-.090" range. I think the real answer to your question is to try a different mouthpiece with an an opening in that range with the 2 1/2s and see what that does for you.

Frank

[Canadiain]

I dont think there is anything wrong with a larger tip opening for a beginner per se, maybe they want a jazz sound over the darker traditional school band sound. They will have to work harder for pitch stability though, which might be a good thing, but I think a lot of school band directors dont want that particular headache, so they direct students towards the usual smaller tip suspects.

My concern is that sure, the softer reed is easier to play now, but when push comes to shove it can be overblown and the Ambassodor will end up developing a weak lip and be unable to reach into the high end of the tenor range for want of a stronger embouchoure that was never given a chance to develop. If the 1.5 cant be overblown , then its probably fine in that piece (presumably previous advice to move up was based on knowing the piece concerned?), but that doesnt mean it will always be like that as practice and improved technique will probably mean stronger reeds will be required in future...as a beginner what works now wont work in a few months. I dont like the idea of moving up from a 1.5 to a 2.5. For the cost of a box of reeds, why not go through a half strength at a time and get a chance to build that lip up?

When I came back to playing after a 20 year lay off I was using a 1.5 on alto for about a month until I was getting back in shape, and within a few months 3s were the norm. Kind of like weight training!

[Jazz Ambassador]

What a week! Sorry it took so long to get back to this.

You guys have just explained a lot about what's been frustrating me since I picked up the sax a few months ago (though it's been a great experience so far!). It sounds like I need a new mouthpiece; even though I aspire to a jazz/swing sound, I am finding pitch stability to be an issue, as Canadiain suggested. I'll be posting a thread in teh mouthpiece forum, but if anyone wants to suggest a good mouthpiece for a beginner who favors jazz and swing, I'm all ears.

Thanks!

[AuntSaxophone]

It all depends on the player, the mouthpiece and other factors... If you feel better using the lower number, then you can tell your teacher to stuff it. You're the one playing the sax. One day just ask them how they think you sound without telling them what reed you're using.

[kavala]

Nothing wrong with a soft reed.

Many guys think it is macho to use a hard reed, but all they do is
compensate and put less in their mouth.

Softer reeds will make the lows easier, but you will have to work harder
at pitch control.

If you get into a loud rock band situation, a soft reed, when it gets real
wet may not cut it.

But for learning and practising, no problem.

You will know instinctively when you need to go up in reed strength.