Starting to doubt my GAS...

[larry]

I played a cocktail party gig today using my 10 year old son's leaky Bundy II alto with the stock Selmer mouthpiece and a 2 1/2 Rico Royal and got more compliments on the alto than on my Super 20 tenor w/ JJ ESP mpc, FL lig, and Legere reed.

WTF?

This idea is creeping into my head, that maybe, just maybe, fancy schmancy gear isn't necessarily the key to a good sound. It sounds a bit like heresy and I expect this thread will get closed down immediately, but now I'm having a deep Crisis of GAS.

What if I can't buy my way into tone and need to rely on <<shudder>> talent and practice? I'm screwed either way... :)

[Sigmund451]

Im more than willing to agree and assist you by sending you a Bundy tenor in trade for your 20 ;)

I think you have hit on something and Im inclined to believe that GAS is really nonproductive. I mean look at Joe Henderson....same setup for ages...and WOW!

Its really so easy to get caught up in consumer side economic traps when your passionalte about something. I think the best cure is to remember and clarify what your passion really is. If its music then its not buying equiptment...at least not necessarly. I have been as guilty as the next guy at times but Ive pretty much put a stop to it.

[tjontheroad]

Oh come on!!! Get it together!!! You're better than that... Buy a mkVI & you'll feel better.

Just kidding ;)

You're getting better than the horn can take you. Congrats :)

[HUTMO]

Larry has figured it out... EPIPHANY AT LAST!!!

I read this list and have realized that Saxophonist and golfers are all the same. I know this because years back I worked at Golf shop by the Greater Pittsburgh International Airport.

Guys looking for the perfect club(Sax), shaft (reed) or ball(mouthpiece) spending needless money when what they needed were good lessons and plenty of productive practice time at the range and on the links. Still, the masses would come through the door to buy the latest Big Bertha (Yammy, Yanni or Selmer) and they would still stink!

Once you have a decent set up practice, practice and practice. If your score is too high or your sound is too buzzy or what ever... it is your fault not that of the equipment. If you do not have a sound... the best hand crafted mouthpiece on a fantastic horn will still sound bad and if you do not have a swing you will still slice/hook the ball. Tiger woods can shoot 10 under on my 20-year-old Diawa High Tracs and M. Brecker would sound great on my B&S or some old Bundy.

There are McGregor blades and a few other clubs (MARK VI) from back in the 60's that are considered the Holy Grail of Golf Clubs but if you can't play they will not help you.

Everyone is looking for a short cut for a great sound (swing) when there is none.

Do yourself a favor.... buy as good of a saxophone that you can afford, one quality mouthpiece, get lessons, listen to good players often, hit the shed and try not to be so neurotic. The sound you crave will come. :)

Peace,
HUTMO

[txsphere]

You said you got compliments but question is did you enjoy playing it? Generally gas is related to people wanting to sound a particular way to suit themselves. After all those people at the cocktail party only had to listen to you for a couple of hours. You have to listen to yourself ever time you pick up the horn.

Besides compliments at cocktail parties should always be weighed with what kind of alcohal is being served and how freely it is flowing. Free booze makes everything sound better.

Just my 52 cents.

[larry]

Well, the room was real bouncy - linoleum floor, high ceiling, no curtains, so the tenor sound was kind of muffled but the alto cut right through.

About halfway through the gig, I gave up fighting it and started channeling Paul Desmond - you know - trying to play everything clean and sweet instead of dark and complex. It was a Standards of the 40s and 50s kind of gig so maybe that sound worked better for that kind of music too.

[JPSaxMan]

Larry has hit a very crucial point in sax playing. An epiphany to say the least.

Up until 6 years ago I had no idea what a Selmer Paris was, that there were so many mouthpiece options, players who could develop their own sound simply by listening and learning, I had no clue. Then I played my band director's Super Action 80 tenor. The thing sucked as far as playing was concerned (choked for me), but the "sax" appeal of the horn made me wonder, so that night I went home and looked up Selmer. Holy crap, who knew these horns existed. I had no idea, I thought the world was all about Bundy's, student Conn's, and student Yamaha's. I had no idea.

So I went on the venture for my own tenor and settled down with a LaVoix. Wanted a Serie III but hey, can't have your cake and eat it too. So now I have this semi-professional horn that is mine, I'm in my glee. I'm sounding better and better on it with the stock setup then I realize I need a jazz sound. So now I start looking into mouthpieces. My band director plays on a Dukoff and I always thought he sounded pretty good. So I got a D7 for grins. That was an experience, let me tell you.

That was all over a year ago. Now, I have my LaVoix setup with an Otto 6 STM NY that uses RJS 3M's, a Dukoff D6 (the older model with the longer shank) on the side with a Rovner MKIII ligature and Vandoren Java 3's, and for classical I happen to have a Selmer Soloist D with a Rovner Dark and for now am using the same Java 3's that I'm using on the Dukoff but I'm sure that will change.

Here's the main point, however. In the first 6 years of my playing before I knew better, I sounded superior amongst my peers. I came neck to neck with the best in my school as far as technique were concerned but usually blew them out of the water with my improvisation or unique sound (even on a student horn and student setup). I was doing pretty freaking well without all the fancy equipment. Getting just as many compliments from just as many people (and no, this wasn't at a cocktail gig :p). So, while this new equipment helps my playing tremendously, is it necessary? To be comfortable, yes, but could I pick up a student horn with several leaks with a student setup and sound like me? The answer, is, yes. I've done it several times since I've gotten set up (I haven't done it for a performance yet), but in play testing, making sure horns work, etc, I've gone with just as a plain jane setup as I did over two years ago. I still sound like me (which is a fairly good sound).

So moral of the story; equipment that suits you is nice, but not imperative. Thanks for the good discussion Larry :D

[Jazzy saxxer 4]

Larry, don't feel bad. Maybe the people hearing you play were not musicians and could not tell the difference. If they don't play music themselves, they're probably not going to notice or pay attention to what kind of horn or mouthpiece you're using. It's like when I was a little kid and playing in recitals. Even when I sounded pretty bad, all the parents and teachers told me it sounded good and encouraged me, even though I wasn't happy with how I'd played. I'm not saying you sounded bad--I'm sure you still sounded good considering the setup. Or ever think that the people you played for were a friendly group? But you must have good practicing habits and talent if you were able to make a crummy student horn sound good.:) I guarantee that any of us who know our saxes would be able to hear a differnce between a Bundy and a Super 20.

[saxfreak]

Larry has figured it out... EPIPHANY AT LAST!!!

I read this list and have realized that Saxophonist and golfers are all the same. I know this because years back I worked at Golf shop by the Greater Pittsburgh International Airport.

Guys looking for the perfect club(Sax), shaft (reed) or ball(mouthpiece) spending needless money when what they needed were good lessons and plenty of productive practice time at the range and on the links. Still, the masses would come through the door to buy the latest Big Bertha (Yammy, Yanni or Selmer) and they would still stink!

Once you have a decent set up practice, practice and practice. If your score is too high or your sound is too buzzy or what ever... it is your fault not that of the equipment. If you do not have a sound... the best hand crafted mouthpiece on a fantastic horn will still sound bad and if you do not have a swing you will still slice/hook the ball. Tiger woods can shoot 10 under on my 20-year-old Diawa High Tracs and M. Brecker would sound great on my B&S or some old Bundy.

There are McGregor blades and a few other clubs (MARK VI) from back in the 60's that are considered the Holy Grail of Golf Clubs but if you can't play they will not help you.

Everyone is looking for a short cut for a great sound (swing) when there is none.

Do yourself a favor.... buy as good of a saxophone that you can afford, one quality mouthpiece, get lessons, listen to good players often, hit the shed and try not to be so neurotic. The sound you crave will come. :)

Peace,
HUTMO

I'll second the notion that GAS is prevalent with golfers and sax players. I've experienced both. In the golf world there is a very strong advertising campaign that tries to make you believe that their product is the ultimate cureall for any problem, without requiring any effort or practice. Same as "chops in a box".

[A Greene]

Similiar situation - My VI was being overhauled so I play a YTS23 on a couple gigs. A few listeners commented on the tone. (IN a good way)

Let's see sell the Selmer for 5 or 6 grand buy a used YTS23 $400 and all is well. It does make one wonder - why do we do this GAS thing?

[Dr G]

Let's see sell the Selmer for 5 or 6 grand buy a used YTS23 $400 and all is well. It does make one wonder - why we do this GAS thing.

Go ahead, be a leader! Sell that horn and see if you start something.

Me, I'm content to keep playing and ENJOYING my horns. I'm on the high side of the half century mark and I really don't care what anyone else prefers.

I just ask that, if you are playing where I might hear you, please don't play some thin, whiny sounding setup. My ears are still good and I appreciate great tone.

[gary]

Jeez. Am I the first one to step up to the plate and say:
"Larry. I'm ashamed of you! I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

SHOCKED!!! 8-)

Snap out of it. Go buy something, quick, before this feeling takes over and strangles you.

OTOH, could this be the greater reason?:
"About halfway through the gig, I...started channelling Paul Desmond..."

Maybe they dug what you were playing on alto more.
Maybe you dug it more.
Maybe they're so used to hearing ratty-assed sounds on alto from a host of Sanborn wannabees that they don't know a really great alto sound.
Whattayathink?

Now go forth and multiply. Replenish the land with Selmers, Barones and Walt Johnsons.

(OK. Well. Maybe you should leave your Johnson at home.)

[A Greene]

Dr. G

In all honesty, I've played the same horn/reed/ligature/mouthpiece combintation for 14 years. And only changed mouthpieces one time in 20 years. (I went from a metal to hard rubber) So I was only commenting on equipment in general and how we sound as we do regardless of the money spent.

I certainly hope I don't play with a thin whiny sound regardess of the instrument I play. Including a Yamaha Beginner Instrument.

[Stretch]

Hey Larry, I think you should upgrade that leaky Bundy II alto to a leaky Yamaha YAS 21 or 23. I believe you will notice a difference.

[txsphere]

if sax stuff is not getting you excited go the the hardware store electronics store. They always sets my GAS tendencies off. MMMMMM, power tools and powerful electronics. I'm getting a rush right now.

[jacobeid]

My reason for wanting/having nice gear is the pride I guess. Think about it. If you are in a conversation with a musician and they ask what kind of gear you use, do you think they'd take you more professionally if you said a bundy or a pro horn?

Also, most of the pro horns I've used played nicer, were built nicer, and had better intonation than student horns.

[Sigmund451]

I dont think there is anything wrong with good gear. I think you should buy the best you can afford. The issue is how much gear one needs and long one wishes to engage the grass is greener syndrome...gas is greener?

[Carl H.]

gas is anti green

[Sigmund451]

and soilent green is people.

[Pete]

"Soylent Green". "Soilent Green" is the gunk you get on your horn after playing and forgetting to wipe it down after you played.

Just so everyone knows, I reported this thread to the GAS police :D.

[jacobeid]

Plus, as somebody's sig says, why have money when you can have horns? :D

[jaysne]

Senior year in college, I ditched my 1923 Martin old potato alto and rented a Vito from the local music store for $1 a week (an incredible bargain even in 1980). I used it to play lead alto in the jazz band. My bandmates were astounded at the great sound I got.

Heck, the horn was free-blowing and easy to play. But I don't think I would have ever gotten anywhere with it if I were doing say, a classical recital, or recording jazz with it. The metal was too light, and consequently the sound wasn't as robust as I wanted. And the key action was basic and not fluid.

But the main reason the Vito came across well is that I was a good player; it was me, not the horn. A good player will sound good on any horn. But when you start getting into the upper echelon of playing, a Vito will not give you the response you desire. The sound will not satisfy, and the key action will not be as swift and supple as you need. You can get away with it in a jazz dance or a cocktail party, but while the sound may satisfy the listeners, you as the player will probably be unfulfilled.

And I agree with everybody, one is much better off spending $1000 on lessons than the same money on a better horn. I knew a guy who had a Mark VI tenor and was constantly bragging about the horn and its great feel and sound. He was also the worst sax player I had ever heard. Even with your expensive dream horn, you're not going to sound good unless you put in the practice time.

[Pete]

As most of y'all know, I have a website that's dedicated to vintage saxophones. Not just any horns, but pro horns. However, I constantly get e-mail questions from beginners.

The general tip-off is when they ask something like, "Which is a better horn for me to get: a Keilwerth Shadow, a Selmer Mark VI or a Bundy II?"

Anyhow, a couple weeks ago I started getting e-mails in the form of, "I just want a sax to play with. I've never picked up a sax before, but I hear they're really easy to learn. My friend's got a beat up Martin Magna. Should I get that horn fixed up? Should I buy that Buescher True Tone C Melody on eBay, instead? It's a lot cheaper."

I just continue to respond: Lease a Yamaha from a local music store. They're very well-made horns and they have everything a newbie needs in a sax. You don't have to spend $7,000 on a new Inderbinden. You're not going to notice the difference. Don't by a vintage horn. You're not going to know what's wrong with it and I *guarantee* that you'll get a horn that's not going to work for you (C melody, high pitch, $old_POS_stencil) and/or will need repair.

And, while a sax is easy to learn how to play, it's difficult to learn how to play well. Use the money I just saved you on some lessons. They're worth it.

I suppose that the bottom line question for this thread is, "Is there that much of a difference between a pro sax and a student sax?" I think there is, but if you're a beginner, as I said, you're not going to notice the difference. Heck, all you need is a decent horn in good repair that plays in tune and a good mouthpiece, ligature and reeds.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I've told this story before but I'll tell it again.

When I was a kid in probably 6th grade my grandfather who played saxophone professionally came to visit the house (they lived a couple of hundred miles away) and my brother and I had to play for him and my grandmother. Kinda like meeting the godfather if you know what I mean. It's the first time I can ever remember being nervous. Anyways, I play and he tells my grandmother to make sure that when he dies I get his horns (Selmer Mark VI alto and tenor). I felt good.

Then he played my horn with my mouthpiece and reed. It was a Bundy II alto and I had never heard it played with such a robust tone ever! My crappy Bundy mouthpiece a Rico reed and a Bundy II sounded big and full! The player not the horn.

I still have the horn and every once in a while have some pads changed on it. It has a much more full tone these days :-) I'm not sure it's as good as what my grandfather had but I'm happy with it.

[kavala]

Okay, I looked up Web Acronyms. Nothing. I give up.
What is GAS ????
Another TLA - Three letter acronym.

[JPSaxMan]

GAS=Gear Acquisition Syndrome (right?) :D

[Master.America]

GAS=Gear Acquisition Syndrome (right?)
Yep.

I remember having similar thoughts when I first tried this Mark VI I recently acquired. When I first played it, I didn't understand the hype; it didn't seem to play differently than my Bundy tenor made only about five years later. Of course, a little acclimation was all it took to cause me to lose doubt in the sax. :)

[betelsax]

Two stories:

Story One:

I knew a guy who had a drawer full of cameras. He wasn't into photography all that much, but when a new model of a camera he had in the draw came out, off he'd go to swap the older model for the newer. He'd use it for a while, and then into the drawer with the other ones it would go. Until the next latest model came out. He was afflicted with the "Goody Goody New Toy Syndrome" or GGNTS.


Story Two:

My wife and I were having dinner with this other couple, Julie and Marvin (the names have been changed to protect the terminally clueless). Julie was showing us the new diamond earrings Marvin had just gotten her. Jewelry doesn't impress me; it's just wearing money. So I said to her (with my wife kicking me under the table - yes they do kick us under the table), "Why do you have to go spend thousands on real diamonds when fake ones are a fraction of the price and nobody looking at your ears (for whatever reason) can tell the difference between the real ones and fakes." And she said, stridently, "Because I know they're real, that's why!" She is afflicted with the "I Deserve The Best" syndrome or IDTB.

Both are part of the larger syndrome known here as GAS.

[goodsax]

My attacks of GAS have not always been about improving my playing. Several times I have just wanted the experience of playing a certain model sax, whether SAT or B, or a certain brand mpc/lig, and a whole host of different kinds and strengths of reeds on all the SATB horns. I've enjoyed the time spent with most of my acquisitions, with few exceptions, and often said I was done, that the current SATB collection was what I planned to stay with forever. WRONG!

I am slowing down, however, and as I reach FRA (full retirement age) this coming November, money for GAS is going to become scarce, as is money for gas. So, my current SATB collection is what I plan to stay with forever. ;)

Rob

[prodigal]

You're the most important part of the equasion.

The reed second, the moutpiece third, the saxophone is is LAST. EG, Charlie Parker - who regularly switched horns and played on everything from Caddys to Yugos!

If it sounds good, don't be afraid to use it!!

The horn needs to be in good condition, but a 'better' horn just makes certain things easier - intonation mostly.

[Jonathan C.]

I have a very small GAS. It's money thats my problem. If I want a new mouthpiece, I save and sell an old one. Samething with instruments I save and save, and maybe I will get lucky.
I don't see why people need a closet full of sax's. Sure get a nice vintage horn, and a great back up. Get a good mouthpiece for each and pratice. I don't need a fancy set up. I like my Tenor set up, maybe like to make a mouthpiece change. But I don't need the horn.
When I was in 7th and 8th grade I made 1st Chair Tenor in my City. Where I live that is an acomplishment. I was playing on a Imtermeadiate Yamaha. With the school set up. The horn doesn't matter, it plays a nice part. You don't need the Porsche (Mark VI) But hey it is a nice thing to brag about.

[chitownjazz]

... So, my current SATB collection is what I plan to stay with forever. ;)

Rob
Rats, no more great deals from Rob!

[sonnymobleytrane]

I have a mark Vi 85xxx and have always played on Designer mouthpieces and started using a Jumbo Java in January which cost me 85 dollars (I have ligatures that were $65 and Reeds at 40 a box)
The first gig I played, friends in the audience (that I didn't believe listened that close) commented on my sound.

[sonnymobleytrane]

But the money I had set aside for a new mouthpiece was burning a hole in my pocket so I bought 3 All jumbo javas actually 2 t 45 and 1 T55 there doesnt seem to be any real difference between the 45 and the 55

[Giganova]

You don't have to spend $7,000 on a new Inderbinden.
What?? :Rant: What's wrong with you??

Do this man a favor, give him some great advice and make him spend at least 5 grand so he will feel better and snap out of it!

[Bootman]

Remember there is no cure for GAS, just stages of remision. I diagnose a bout of antacid here. Go play a Martin or two and see how your feel in teh morning!

[tensopbass]

Nothing wrong with gas, just get the best you can afford and work on getting the best out of it.
I think my choice of horns has peaked out (aided by a bout of poverty) and I should be able to do justice to my purchases in about 20 years.
At least I know that any shortcomings in the playing are 100% me, not the equipment.
nicko

[Giganova]

That's the right spirit! :D

[bari_sax_diva]

I'm not sure that any of us are deluded enough to think that the perfect horn will make us sound like Getz, Coltrane, Cuber, or [insert your hero here].

There are definitely reasons to have the best equipment you can get; leaky baris, for example, are enough to turn people off to playing, and there's nothing worse than fighting a losing battle with a horn that has pitch problems. Still, I think that GAS is an affliction primarily because we just LOVE saxophones, and like any other equipment-intensive pursuit, there will always be a bunch of us gearheads who will continually look for something new to add to the stable, whether we think it'll help us or not.

In our defense, though, I find that a new toy can be good motivation to practice a horn I wouldn't otherwise enjoy as much. My recent alto switch is a case in point; all of a sudden, I'm allotting more practice time to alto and I'm already sounding better (plus, it gives my hands and wrists a break from the big axe). As long as we're realistic about the results we expect, I don't really see a problem in having somewhat of a revolving door.

I just gotta make sure some of mine start rotating back OUT, though... :oops:

[andrewbowie]

This one will never go away (nor should it), but let's get it clear.
1) If you practice a lot and are taught well, you should end up playing pretty well, as long as your horn and set up are reasonably good.
2) If you get better equipment, you are very likely to sound (and feel) better.
3) Trying a new horn/mouthpiece, etc., is exciting, because it might be a big step forward, and who wants to miss that chance?
1), 2), and 3) are not incompatible, and that's why threads like this are fun, because we all do different versions of each. There is no one right way, but there can be lots of right ways, so those of you who insist on just 1) or just 2) can't be right all the time.