SML is one HEEAAAVY horn

[Swingtone]

I just received my vintage King Marigaux tenor the other day. Love the sound though I'm still getting used to it. Has a big free-blowing vintage American sound, but with a more focused core, like you would expect from a French sax.

The only drawback is that it's the heaviest horn I've ever strapped on (but also a plus from the standpoint that this is where the rich sound comes from). Don't get me wrong--I'm 6'3" and weigh 225, but it isn't the best for those longer practice sessions. I found my old Buffet SDA to be the same way, though I think the SML is even heavier, maybe due to the larger bell.

So have any of you SML players found this to be the case, and if so, what kind of solutions have you come up with in terms of neck straps and thumb rests. I think I'm going to ditch my slinky Neotech strap for a more unforgiving one (stole this suggestion from a recent thread on a similar topic).

The right-hand thumb rest on the horn seems kind of wimpy for such a heavy instrument. It doesn't loop back down much after its initial rise. Has anyone had any luck in modifying their RHT rests with a rubber piece for better ergos?

Unlike many, though, I haven't had the problem with the LH ergos, probably because I have large hands, so it's not much of a stretch and actually pretty comfortable.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[tjontheroad]

I'd say my Rev D doesn't feel heavier than my other tenors. It is unbalanced with the location of the strap hook. They should have placed it lower down the tube. It's bottom heavy and places a strain on my left thumb as I push the horn outward.

SML are great sounding. I really like the tone. Glad you're liking yours.

[mike_s]

I have an SML alto and i found that having a modern adjustable selmer thumbhook put on the right hand really helped things out.

My horn is from the 40's and just had this awful fixed thumbhook, not sure if that got better with the later horns.

it could also be the neck angle is a bit different then you are used to.

[Swingtone]

I'd say my Rev D doesn't feel heavier than my other tenors. It is unbalanced with the location of the strap hook. They should have placed it lower down the tube. It's bottom heavy and places a strain on my left thumb as I push the horn outward.

SML are great sounding. I really like the tone. Glad you're liking yours.

Yeah, I'm diggin the sound, though I recently did a blind test with a family member, and they said they preferred the sound of my 1956 King Cleveland that I recently acquired for 400 bucks (I know--that's nothing compared to what you picked up your SML for--lucky you!!). Wasn't too surprised, however, as the King sounds similar to the vintage Super 20's and Zephyr's that I have played, and they have been voted (on saxpics) as THE American jazz horns.

Nevertheless, it really made me stop and think, after having spent $1,400 on the Marigaux. But it is a beautiful horn--made in 1967 but looking like it was made last year. I think the condition is due to it having been owned by one musician--one George Keith, an African American jazz musician who played in Dizzy Gillespie's band back in the late 40s and early 50s. I guess he peaked early and never made his mark so to speak, opting to run a music store and teach in the Denver area for most of his life; but I jumped at the chance to own his personal tenor sax. His former student, who was handling his estate (he just died in January), told me that for years he owned two tenors--an early Mark VI and the Marigaux. But according to his student, he sold the VI several years ago because he preferred the sound of the Marigaux/SML. This info also tipped me off that it might be one of the "good" Marigauxs (some people say their quality flucuates, but I think there may not be much truth to this--they are essentially SML Gold Medals with different engraving).

If you'd like to know more about Mr. Keith, here's an obit that appeared in his hometown online paper:

http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?id=5673

I hear he was primarily an alto player (I think his main axe--a Yani--might still be available through Tim Glesmann). I think it's kind of cool that he had his swan song in Japan--somewhere where jazz and jazz musicians are still worshipped.

[hornimus]

Swing, let's talk about those Marigaux toneholes... (g)

I have the same tenor, no problems personally with the RH thumbrest because I tend not to put much weight on my thumb, and I actually like the shape of the inside of that rest....

As to weight, I'd have to say the SML seems no heavier to me than other tenors, but that the Buffet SDA is noticeably heavier.

Played Mari last night and am really lovin' the sound. At times I have the notion of selling everything in the closet, but this is one that would probably go last, if at all.....

[Dr G]

Hey! I have one too!

Yep, ditch the stretchy strap for a while and see if that helps.

[danarsenault]

Us primarily bari guys love it when tenor players complain of horn weight.

[Swingtone]

How would you all rank the following tenor saxes for weight, from heaviest to lightest (feel free to comment even if you've only got experience with a couple of these):

-Selmer Mark VI

-Buffet Super Dynaction

-SML Gold Medal/King Marigaux

-B&S Chicago Jazz Series (threw this one in because someone just commented on another thread that his was heavy)

-The Martin Tenor (saxpics has complained about the weight of the one he used in high school)

[Swingtone]

Ok, just used the search engine--aren't you all proud of me?

Here's a thread started two years ago in which people weighed their horns:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13843&page=2&highlight=heavy+weight

Wind-miller, from this I see that you weighed your SDA and SML a couple months ago and they were pretty close at 3.4 kg each. Did you forget already? I think those have got to be two of the heaviest tenors out there.

It doesn't look like anybody ever got shmuelyosef to weigh his Kings, though. It would be interesting to see how much a Super 20 weighs compared to the rest. I used to own a late model S20 but never weighed it. But I recall it was one of the lightest horns I've ever owned. From memory, it even seems lighter than my 1956 H.N. White Cleveland, which actually has some weight to it. I would love it if someone would weigh their 40s or 50s (or even early 60s) S20, so I can compare it to my 5-digit Cleveland ;). But if you do, it should probably be posted in the above older thread so that non-SML owners will see it.

Thanks!

[hornimus]

I suppose I shoulda said, the SDA feels significantly heavier to me *in play mode* even though it and the Marigaux are very close on my metric bathroom scale (which measures in 0.2 kg increments, so not exceedingly accurate.....). I really wonder why.... The Marigaux feels "bigger" though (optical illusion?), even though I'm sure if I took a tape measure to it, they would be virtually identical (except for that SML bell flare).

[tjontheroad]

Ok, I just played my SDA and SML. The heavyweight champ is the SDA. SML has bigger bark. WOOF WOOF ;)

[Swingtone]

For those guys who own both an SML and SDA--

It would be interesting if you put both horns side by side to see where the neck strap hook is positioned on each. Is one higher (or lower) than the other? Since I used to own an SDA (and now an SML), I know that this is an issue with both--that the hook's too high for most people. Though I'm no engineer, I have a theory that this might make these horns (or one more than the other) feel heavier, because the hook is not positioned near the center of gravity of the horn. Thus, it seems like the horn is pulling in one direction--straight down. In contrast, for all other horns where the hook's positioned near the center of gravity, the horn seems to pull down on both sides, like the balances on a scale; thus, when you drop the horn (while wearing a strap, mind you), it just hangs there balanced, rather than snapping back up to hit you in the face. Maybe I'm way off on this, but just a thought....

[Kritavi]

I've owned dozens of tenors over the years. The heaviest of all was the silver plate SML Coleman Hawkins Special which I did not end up keeping partly for that reason. I did keep my earlier brass Coleman Hawkins which is not as heavy and to my ears sounds better.

[tjontheroad]

For those guys who own both an SML and SDA--

It would be interesting if you put both horns side by side to see where the neck strap hook is positioned on each. Is one higher (or lower) than the other? Since I used to own an SDA (and now an SML), I know that this is an issue with both--that the hook's too high for most people. Though I'm no engineer, I have a theory that this might make these horns (or one more than the other) feel heavier, because the hook is not positioned near the center of gravity of the horn. Thus, it seems like the horn is pulling in one direction--straight down. In contrast, for all other horns where the hook's positioned near the center of gravity, the horn seems to pull down on both sides, like the balances on a scale; thus, when you drop the horn (while wearing a strap, mind you), it just hangs there balanced, rather than snapping back up to hit you in the face. Maybe I'm way off on this, but just a thought....

Your theory is likely correct to some extent in terms of feel. Both are not hooked up at the center of gravity. Worse so on the SML. The neck on the SDA extends futher away from the body causing a potential slap in face.

Still, when I just held the two horns by the bell in both hands the SDA felt more heavy.

[esimpson252]

I played a Conn Bass made around 1918 for 15 years in a local band. Killer horn. Music Director put me back in the tenor section this year. I have a S.M.L. Rev D. Feels like a paperweight compared to that tank.

[Tryptykon]

I think the condition is due to it having been owned by one musician--one George Keith, an African American jazz musician who played in Dizzy Gillespie's band back in the late 40s and early 50s

I clicked the link and read the obit. story you provided.

It appears he was born and raised in Denver.

He was an American, not an "African-American" .

You could've just said George Keith a jazz musician who played with Dizzy.

or, why not :

"George Keith an African American jazz musician who played
with Dizzy Gillespie; also, an African American , back in the late 40s,and early 50s .

If he were, so-called, Irish American, would you've needed to state, same ?

Hmmm ...

[Swingtone]

Tryptykon,

I didn't notice your post until just today, and frankly, I think you are the one who is hung up about race--not me. I meant no malice or disrespect when I included that detail--which was accurate btw. I realize now that I shouldn't have even posted something that is fairly personal to me on such a public forum. I'm glad at least someone read it. It's just not the reaction I had hoped for.

You know, I have a theory that some of the most "PC" people out there are actually some of the worst offenders in the racism department--at least in thought. It's their hypersensitivity that reveals their unhealthy obsession with it.

Too bad neither one of us will ever get to hear him play--though I'm sure he was great.

[Tryptykon]

I guess our experiences and realities have been different re: the issue.

I don't think I'm being PC, though

I just don't think it was necessary to say he was african american

I won't go into it further, since you wouldn't be pursuaded, either, way.

[Swingtone]

So you are calling me a racist again? There was nothing to--in your words--"pursuade" (sic) me of in the first place. Everyone with two eyes can see that my intentions in posting Mr. Keith's obituary were honorable and done out of a deep respect for the deceased, a man whose personal saxophone I now own and cherish. You were the one who decided to besmirch my character by publishing your libelous and cowardly charges. I personally think that anyone who makes a charge of racism--implied or otherwise--should at least be man enough to reveal themselves rather than hide behind the anonymity provided by this Forum.

[Swingtone]

There was at least one good thing that came out of revisiting this old thread--I see that the link I posted to Mr. Keith's obit is now dead. But there is still another one available, though not as official, on a blog, and I will post it now:

http://denver.yourhub.com/Blog.aspx?contentid=53512

[Tryptykon]

So you are calling me a racist again? There was nothing to--in your words--"pursuade" (sic) me of in the first place. Everyone with two eyes can see that my intentions in posting Mr. Keith's obituary were honorable and done out of a deep respect for the deceased, a man whose personal saxophone I now own and cherish. You were the one who decided to besmirch my character by publishing your libelous and cowardly charges. I personally think that anyone who makes a charge of racism--implied or otherwise--should at least be man enough to reveal themselves rather than hide behind the anonymity provided by this Forum.

Swingtone, I wasn't calling you a racist, or implying you were.

Don't be simple-minded.

I just asked why it was necessary to identify George Keith as an african american.

It didn't seem to matter in the context of the thread.

Like I said, and you proved it in your responses that I couldn't persuade you
either way.
If I was given Allen Eager's old Conn tenor; I wouldn't need to announce it
as " I just received an instrument that was played by Allen Eager the great
white Tenorman from the 1940s. "

Call it me being PC/hypersensitive, if you want, I'm just saying I don't tend
to find it necessary to identify someone's ethnic makeup, unless I had to.

I'm not trying to besmirch your character, and your respect for Mr. Keith was
not obscured by your opting to racialize him in the same breath--It just made
me wonder; albeit, out loud.

[mnash]

Uh ...

My dark lacquer (is it ok to say that?) King Marigaux seemed heavy after swapping from a kind of light-goldish-lacquer (but not to imply Caucasian) French (no disrespect intended) Selmer. But I got used to it.

sorry to interrupt, you guys can go back to slamming each other now...

[candiceartisan]

My Allora Earthtone Tenor is VERY heavy! I would guess it weighs about 12 pounds. When people watch me playing it they smile and say the horn is almost as big as I am and they get a kick out of seeing a chick playing. I am 5' 7" and 142#. If any of you have weighed your Allora, post it.
Candy

[Tryptykon]

Uh ...

My dark lacquer (is it ok to say that?) King Marigaux seemed heavy after swapping from a kind of light-goldish-lacquer (but not to imply Caucasian) French (no disrespect intended) Selmer. But I got used to it.

sorry to interrupt, you guys can go back to slamming each other now...

My last comments on this unfortunate aspect of the thread.

Public apology to Swingtone(and others) for what appeared to be any sort
of attack(or slam) it wasn't.. and I just as easily could've
PM'd Swingtone if I had an 'issue'.

I really did not want to derail the topic of this thread, and, sort of, did.

Again, sorry about that .:)