Need advice on improving tone quality

[PolteRGeisT]

This is a major problem for me. I've been playing 2 and a half years now and my tone quality is quite poor. I assume it could be the horn or the reed, but a fellow sax player in my band uses the exact same horn reed and mouthpiece, and she sounds great. I suppose I should point out that she's been playing at least 6.5 years, but that's no excuse for me. I need advice on improving my tone quality.

I use Vandorean 3 Reed, Selmer Student Model saxophone, and a plastic "Hermes USA" mouthpiece.

[Balladeer]

PolteRGeist:
2.5 years is not very long. How old are you? Do you play any other musical instruments - especially wind instruments? Developing technique on a sax from low C to high C (C1 to C3) is very straightforward. But extended range technique, left-hand pinky cluster, palm keys, and TONE take years.

I began playing alto sax in 6th grade. By 11th grade I realized that my tone was becoming pleasing. Before then, I was just trying to fit in and get my tone to blend with the other sections, and to follow musical directions.

It is possible that the mouthpiece/reed setup is not well suited to you. I recommend that you spend regular practice time playing long tones at different volume levels and work to crescendo/decrescendo over those long tones. When you hear yourself producing good tone, try to maintain that tone while making volume changes and note changes. This will involve your mouth, throat and diaphram. ...and keep your notes on pitch!

Unless you have mastered another wind instrument, you probably do not realize that players with good tone have very strong embouchures, open oral cavities, and strong air support from their diaphram. This is physical. Becoming a world-class diver, gymnast or figure skater takes more than a couple years because you have to develop and teach your body. It's the same with playing a sax.

[PolteRGeisT]

I'm 16 years old, and currently in 11th grade. I began in grade 9, but I must also admit I've only been taking it really seriously for the past year or so. I am currently taking it VERY seriously as I realized that my friend in my band (the one who's been playing for at least 6.5 years) was so far beyond me, I feel I need to close that 4 year gap. I originally started playing the sax when I was in grade 5, but I must have been too immature: I gave up after a couple weeks due to frustration. I deeply[b] regret that now. But your advice is comforting, knowing after all that the problems I'm going through with tone quality is normal. Thanks.[/i]

[Tears June]

PolteRGeisT

1) First, try to use 2.5 reed instead of 3. May be a softer reed can help you to improve your tone. If the reed is too hard for you, it's difficult to make it to receive more vibration. May good player even playing over 20 years but they still using 2.5 or max 3 reed.

2) Keep practice at least 5 to 10 minutes of long tone in each practice session by using different approach (Crescendo & Decrescendo. Match tone)

3) Blow a long tone on the middle note. Try to drop slowly then raise slowly of your jaw. Experiment this to hear which point you get the BEST tone. Then, remember this point, which is the right point of your jaw to place.

:cry:

[PolteRGeisT]

hmm, odd glitches there...

anyway, I'd like to add that the alto sax is the only instrument I play. I'm thinking of picking up soprano, but now I think I might put that off until I've made a lot mroe progress with the alto. After all, I don't know 2 instruments to worry about right now.

[Razzy]

Yes definitely use the suggestions above.

I was in your exact shoes, I picked up alto sax in 5th grade and never really practiced, I had no idea about proper technique, articulation, breath control, dynamic. I just played in bands up until 8th grade. Then in 8th grade I picked up the bari sax, and, same story up to the beginning of 10th grade: minimal progress because I didn't really practice. I picked up tenor sax in 10th grade as 2nd tenor in my high school jazz band and played in it for a year. I was developing more of a concept, began to learn how to properly tongue, but I still was using reeds that were way too hard for me, a terrible mouthpiece, and a school mark VI that was very out of adjustment, plus no real breath support. Still, since I was in a section of much more experienced players, I didn't sound too bad because I was constantly conforming to fit the section and learning how to play jazz from them.

Then at the end of 10th grade (now I'm in 11th) I had a breakthrough when I began studying with a QUALITY private teacher. He had me only work on articulation, tone, scales, and arpeggios for the entire summer. We didn't even begin working on jazz until November, even though I was 1st tenor sax and section leader of the jazz band.

Basically, as soon as I started to slow things down, do lots of long tones, and learn to articulate and move my fingers correctly, as well as purchase a good mouthpiece, good reeds to match, and a quality ligature, everything improved greatly. I am now a semi-pro player thanks to his guidance!! Even before I articulate the first note of a piece or tuning note or whatever, I do all this preparation: assuring my embouchure is in the correct place/tension, fingers are placed correctly, breath support is begun, then take a HUGE breath and relax the throat etc etc and everything sounds great. Now, I have a long way to go, mind you, but without the proper guidance and teacher to kick me in the butt and get me going, I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today. And I only really started taking the horn seriously 1.5 years ago or so. It's all about learning properly, having a good teacher or other resource, and playing with others that are more experienced than you.

[JEdge]

What Razzy said shows that it wont happen over night. So please dont think that, but the main thing you need to do is practice. If you start long tones and practicing everyday you might have the tone and technique your looking for by the begining of 12th grade. Sounds like a farily long time away but you will be very surprized at how far you progress from month to month.[/u]

[Anonymous]

The realization that your tone is weak is the first and best indicator that you can (and will) improve it!

Many players listen PAST the tone to the point that they play all the right notes---miserably!

[PolteRGeisT]

When you say longtones, I take it you mean play individual notes for as long as a possibly can while watching a tuner? Hey I can record myself too! :D I can keep tabs on how much I improve with every passing month.

[synchro]

When you say longtones, I take it you mean play individual notes for as long as a possibly can while watching a tuner? Hey I can record myself too! :D I can keep tabs on how much I improve with every passing month.

More important than using a tuner is using your ears. I picked up my sax after a long layoff 8 months ago. I have been practicing the long tones the whole time and my tone has gotten better constantly. I had a pretty good tone after 6 years of playing in high school, and now after 8 months its back to where it was.

I have recently been trying to correct some embrouchure problems using the mouthpiece only exercises found on this site. It has really helped with intonation problems. I now don't have to "lip" 2nd octave notes into tune.

2 main things are the open throat concept and breath support. I had a private instructor in high school that helped me acheive it. It helps to have someone with a good tone teaching you, and playing an example and then you try to match it.

Also, a plastic mouthpiece won't be helping you either. A good hard rubber one will help you improve too. But, a decent tone is possible even on a plastic mouthpiece with proper embrouchure, breath support and open throat.

[Bryan Kendall]

I have three pieces of advice
#1 Listen to singers - especially opera

#2 Listen to singers - especially opera

#3 Listen to singers - especially opera

[Bill Mecca]

Question: Define what is "poor" about your tone. for example is it strident, do you warble, is it tough to initiate a tone, in a particular area of the horn, do you have problems staying on pitch, holding a note for any length of time, does it change from one end of the horn to the other?

You need to use your ears and analyze your tone, what you like and what you don't like about it. That being said, the best advice is long tones, crescendo and decresendo, vibrato and no vibrato, also overtone exercises will bring some complexity to your tone.

and mouthpiece matieral doesn't matter, the design of the mpc is what matters. check out some of Paul Coat's articles on the main SOTW pages, you will find the mouthpiece exercise explained and information on equipment.

[Subtone Sam]

Poltergeist,listen to great alto players,like Johnny Hodges,Charlie Parker,Paul Desmond,Cannonball Adderley,Art Pepper etc. and try to emulate and imitate their sound;theres nothing wrong trying to sound like somebody else,thats the way everybody learns.Especially listen these masters playing ballads so you can really hear the tone quality they have.But keep in mind that its a recorded sound,not live.Long tones practise is important but one way to improve your tone quality is to play ballads yourself.J.Aebersold has "Ballads" play-a-long you can practise with.Most of all,LISTEN to your sound very closely all the time you play.

[sessionsax]

I agree with subtone sam. I also advise that you determine what sound you are going for.

A lot of band directors (I know this, I was one for a while) want you to go for the extremely dark -- blending sound -- sax with a sock is the way I describe it. This is great for concert band work, but I believe that if you take this as the gospel for the sound that you want to produce, you will be dissapointed. This may be whats happening to you now.

I began working toward producing the sounds that I heard from my sax idols (Dave Sanborn, Eric Marienthal, ect......) at a very early age.

Now, I didnt do this by going out and buying a Dukoff just because Sanborn uses one. I tried to strike a balance between my ultimate goal for a soloist sound and one that was workable in a concert band environment.

I really began to focus on my embrochure. I actually used to sit in front of a mirror with a picture of Charlie Parker and tried to imitate his embrochure. I also practiced long tones with a goal of being able to produce a clear open sound with no lip warbling sounds for 30 secs.

After I noticed an improvement in my tone I began to notice the mouthpieces that the more advanced players were using -- and I upgraded my mouthpiece.

Since my tonal ambition was a little on the brighter side, I tried some pieces until I settled on a hard rubber Otto Link tone edge. I liked it better than the Meyers as it was slightly brighter (this was in the mid 80s).

I also went up slightly on the tip opening from the mouthpiece that came with my horn. For the first little while, I found the more open tip challenging, but I didnt go over the edge and get something that I couldnt produce a sound on from the start.

On this setup, and with continued long tones and experience in general, I began to get closer to the sound that I heard in my head.

Although the sound that I produced was a little brighter than the concert sound, I really began to enjoy the sound of the instrument.

I have seen a lot of saxophonists in my life, discourage themselves in their early development by not identifying what they believe should be the sound they are going for.

Its amazing how many young saxophonist I have seen that don't really have a clue how the sax is supposed to sound. Getting a concept of the sound that pleases you is critical.

From that point on, its just research, experimentation and development.

[Charlie A.]

Hi!
I am charlie A and would suggest that you go to my site and read the article there about "Proper Embouchure Pressure" and the exercise given there will help you to determine if the embouchure is correct.

Santy Runyon's book, "Suggestions For WW PLayers" is also available on the site. It is a very inexpensive booklet that will help you understand many problems and get on the right track.
My site is: www.gigdust.com.
Regards,
Charlie A.

[asian sax]

i just have to say DAMN, there is a lot of good info here. just listen to everyone, man, and you'll progress.

i have the same story. i started alto in elementary band in 4th grade. i was always 1st chair (our band isn't very competitive) so i thought i was good enough but when a guy from another school came in the 10th grade, he just blew me away. then, i acquired my passion for the saxophone after hearing him as well as listening to different artists.

now, in the 12th grade, i've progressed a lot after some lessons, A LOT OF reading (books, websites, and ESPECIALLY this forum), and lots of practicing during the week.

for your tone, i'd advocate mouthpiece exercise, long tones, and overtones. also, you may want to get a new mouthpiece and reeds to match it (like razzy said). for me, a new mouthpiece made all the difference in the world; after all those years of playiing, i had the embouchure to support the new mouthpiece and my tone just totally changed.
also, listen to others' sound. listen to different saxophonists and find one whose tone you want. for alto, i like maceo parker.

i just want to wish you the best of luck. keep practicing and someday, you'll have that beautiful sound u've always dreamed of. :D :D
my setup @school: bundy 2, runyon custom w/spoiler 7, rico 2.5

[hornstar]

for all wind and brass instruments, great tone comes from using the throat to give it resonance. master fluteplayer Robert Dick gives a great explanation of this, which he calls "throat tuning:"

Every person who has ever played a wind instrument with a beautiful tone has done throat tuning to some degree, whether they were conscious of it or not. If you hold your vocal chords in a position where they are ready to sing the note you are playing, you will maximize this resonance. The vocal chords do not have to be pitched in the same octave; throat tuning will work very powerfully even if the silent voice is pitched octaves below. To try it out, sing a note softly and gently with an open vowel like "Ooh" at the same time as you play that note. Then play the note without singing while clearly hearing your voice in your inner ear and feeling like you are singing that note. After working with some single notes, go on to short phrases, etc.

Mr. Dick also advocates shaping the mouth cavity in different syllables, such as "Ah", "Ooh", "Oh," "Eee," "Ewe," etc., to vary the tonal character. this may seem tough at first when you've been taught to hold the mouthpiece a certain consistent way, but you really do have freedom to vary the expansion of the oral cavity, the placement of the tongue, the pressure of the jaw. like any new technique, there is a learning curve, so don't give up after the first attempts. soon you'll learn to control your tone and have different colors to use in your sound painting, learning early what many of us took much longer to discover by accident.

[SonnyMurphy]

Thanks Hornstar, for that clear description of "throat tuning". Well put!

[Anonymous]

Before betting the farm on this one, try sounding a tone using different vowel sounds and other grotesque oral gymnastics.

Unless your gob is substantially different from mine, you'll hear an absolute minimum of change in timbre! Probably not enough to be detected by a third party listener!

In short, I think we're talkin' about tuning the engine through the trunk of the car, just because that's closer to where the driving wheels are located!

Better to bring in an exorsist and have your setup purged of evil influences!

This is just an opinion, of course, and certainly not intended to obstruct the right of anyone to their voodoo science.

:wink: , :wink: Nudge, Nudge!

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry! Make that:

Nudge, Nudge! :wink: , :wink: !

[gary]

A word of warning about the "throat tuning" quote above. I suggest that too much concentration on mechanics and the psysiology of playing can lead some people to choke up, physically and/or mentally. I think sticking to the basics of "doing" the long tones, vs. "thinking" about the process and all it entails, would be more beneficial.

The head of my university's trumpet dept. was fascinated with this stuff and we had frequent seminars on specifically was happening in various parts of the body when playing. Not everyone in this program had problems as a result of this, but I did. It eventually led to my thinking so much about the physical mechanics that I actually began having problems playing.

That summer I studied with a guy who was a twenty-year, first call L.A studio player. He made things so simple. I.e when I asked him about all that should be going on, and how it should feel, etc. I.e. when I asked about what muscles were used in breath support, what they did, what I should feel, etc., he merely said "cough". I choughed. He said "Any more questions?".

In about three lessons my playing made a marked jump in quality, mainly because I got on with the business of playing and not analysing. I'm not suggesting not using one's mind. Just that for some, if overdone, it can lead to problems.

[Demolisher_2000]

Also remember, DO NOT BITE DOWN ON YOUR REED. If you do this, your saxophone sound will get muffled and youll never get full potential sound of it. Keep your emboshure firm, dont matter if you leak air a bit from not biting, it will still give you that big beautiful saxophone sound. Also gets the airflowing very well and is good for soft notes.
Hope this advice helps you:)

[bass]

I read this thread with great interest because I'm a beginner who is also dissatisfied with his tone.

I started playing the tenor 20 months ago as an adult (49). My setup is a Yamaha YTS-23 and a HR Otto Link 6. Although I think my tone has improved quite a bit, it still is harsh and not pleasant to listen to for any length of time. At times it sounds brassy--almost like a trombone. Not much subtlety or beauty. Perhaps there are intonation problems at the upper end that make the pitches sound shrill. (The sound does sound better recorded than when I listen to myself live--any one else had that experience?)

Anyway, I understand that a good tone takes years to develop and that I shouldn't be so impatient. I also understand that long-tone practice is essential. But I wonder if I can be doing anything else except playing every day and waiting.

Thanks.

[Sigmund451]

TheYTS-23 is a good student horn but it is (much like the same alto version) rather tinny and harsh sounding. Getting a thick full sound out of it is going to take more work than with something like a good old conn or a martin. Thicken your reed if you can...even if it means going to a slightly closed mouthpiece.

[sadist]

After reading the comments i realised i am facing smilar or rather more problems
i've like played for 2.5 years but for the first 2 yrs i'm total slack... Not wanting to boast here but i am quite a fast learner and managed to pick up quite fast... My tone is reasonable if i use a correct reed and mouthpiece...
however on impulsion, i converted to play soprano just about recently. Now i am struggling to get a good tone... i do suspect the mouthpiece though, but i really think that is something wrong...
i also feel my band's going wrong... my peer always uses reeds that are hyper thick and produces a holy great sound, but i simply just cant on any range

[orions_belt27]

As for me, i believe in 3 primary things.

1. Embouchure muscle control.

2. Open Throat concept.

3. Diaphragm muscle control/ Proper breathing with diaphragm.

Play the sax as though you are singing like Pavorotti, and you'll get the solid good tone :) the production of a good tone starts from the diaphragm :)

As for all the technicalities, nuts and bolts dat go into producing tone, understanding them is fine and yes imperative, but having them on your mind when you play, is not fine. :)

[Razzy]

Right, there's so much going on in the muscles and all that you'd go nuts and forget about the music if you were trying to control it all. You have to control it for a while. Then let the brain do its job, the subconscious takes over and you can focus on the music. that's how you eventually just KNOW where the notes are 8)

[sadist]

true... all that diaphragm all that stuff...

hmm but tell me how do you "open throat" ?

:oops:

[orions_belt27]

Just imagine this:

Sing a high pitch note like wat an opera singer might. Notice how the throat muscles constrict? now this is closed throat.

To get an idea of wat the open throat is, sing a very low note. notice how the throat muscles have to open to allow larger throat capacity? now dat's the open throat.

you can try it many ways, like do a Santa Claus "HO HO-ing" or sumthin. my teacher likens it to blowing lots of HOT air thru the sax or sumthin like yawning~ :)

Now, remember the position of those muscles. Dun tense, just keep those muscles there and blow a nice round tone using ur diaphragm to steady the air stream :) hope this helps~

[KMR]

After many years of working on my own sound,and giving thousands of lessons, I agree with a lot of the above.
There are a great many ways to improve sound quality.
The problem for many people in the early stages of playing is too many ideas and concepts.

For me, it is simple.

1) Know what you you are trying to achieve.

2) How to achieve it

How do you know what you want to sound like? You listen and identify the sounds that you like. On Cds , Radio, TV or whatever. Then try to retain that sound in your head when you practice. On alto this may range from Paul Desmond to David Sanborn, or anything in - between. Identify what you like. Keep it in your head all the time. Conjur it up often.

It can be very beneficial to play along with the recording, trying to match the notes, and particularly the tone quality of the sound that you admire. In the early stages dont pick anything too complex. It may be for example that you can only pick out the tune and the solo is beyond you. that is ok. This ability will get better with time.

This is a big problem for many people. BE PATIENT. BE CONTENT, THAT IF YOU DO THE "CORRECT" THINGS YOU WILL/ARE GETTING BETTER.

In terms of the physical side of things, Long notes are great.
Listen to yourself. Keep the sound of your hero in your head. Try to duplicate what you hear

There are a million long note excercises. You cant do them all!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pick something that you feel is good and stick with it for a reasonable time.

Here is one that quite a few people do. It really taxes the embouchure. If you get tired and the muscles start to ache..... STOP... Be content that for that day you have done enough. The next day it will be better. At that point move onto other apects of your practice
Tone Quality is a long term thing. BE PATIENT!!!!!!!

Do this EVERY practice session. Try it. What have you got to lose. Your present method isnt giving you what you want. But give it a month or so before you judge if it is making a difference.

Here is the ex.

Use a metronome if possible but if not used to this, then it doesnt matter too much. BUT count in your head.

Play a middle C sharp for 4 beats, then C natural for 4 beats then back to C sharp for 4 beats, then rest for 4 beats. Use this 4 beat rest to get ready and breathe in for the next sequence.

Play a middle C sharp for 4 beats, then B natural for 4 beats then C sharp for 4 beats, then rest/ breathe for 4 beats

Continue like this all the way down to low Bb. ie each sequence relates to mid Csharp.

This may not be possible for everyone to begin with. I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT EVERYTHING IS SLURRED
Not using your tongue and slurring from mid C sharp to low Bb is hard. Your limit for the moment may be C sharp to low E or whatever. That is ok. Stick with it it will get better. Try to keep the blow steady. Think about the amount of air needed before you get to the low note. This is a difficult concept to put over in writing, Good luck.

Then go back to mid C sharp and work upwards.
ie C sharp / mid D /C sharp
C sharp / mid Eb / C sharp etc al the way to C sharp/ high F / C sharp

If you can go down and then up and you embouchure is still ok then you are already doing well. The ultimate would be to slur from every note to every other!!!!!!!!!! This takes time!!!!!!!!!!! At this point you are well on the way.

I am not saying that this is the only way. It is a method that I have seen working many times. If you do this and listen to what is happening, I can almost promise you an improvement in tone quality.

WOW, what a claim. Why not try it. What can you lose. 10/15 minute per day out of your life for a month!! It may make the difference that you are looking for. I am not claiming that after 1 month you will be the finished article, but hopefully you will see an improvement and keep going. Then we get to overtones, but I believe that is a more advanced concept. Everything in good time.

Good luck

[Paul Coats]

All of the suggestions above are very good.

One person asked, what aspect of the tone is lacking?

I had a friend long ago who consitently got poor marks for her tone each semester in her juries (performing in front of a panel of teachers in college), but her brass teacher realized her basic tone was good. It was her tonguing and sloppy release that was the problem, and made her sound bad. They worked on just this aspect of her tone for the entire semester. Her next jury, she got all A's, and the remarks on the sheets were "tone much improved".

A change of reed, mouthpiece, or both might be in order. Hermes mouthpieces have been made by several different manufacturers, so I don't know which one you have without seeing it. Some are quite good. The Vandoren reed might not be a suitable cut for that mouthpiece. Is your tone cold, dry, airy? A softer reed, or a different reed might be in order.

If your instrument has any leaks, it will encourage bad habits to try to overcome these leaks, and can result in tone and response problems. Look at the octave and palm key pads. Are they cut or damaged? REPLACE! You have had this sax for a few years now, have you had it in the shop very often? I replace palm key pads on my saxes every 18-24 months, needed or not.

So, these are some other factors to explore.

[Subtone Sam]

Listen to saxplayers that you think have great sounds (or tone) and try to get that sound in your head;try to imagine HOW such sound could be achieved and you mind will work on it and give you the answer.Then try to sound like that yourself,theres nothing wrong with copying and emulating,thats how we all learn.

[sadist]

great tone improving advices.. thanks!
KMR does your method work for soprano sax?
i would not daresay i want to get kenny g's tone but which good soprano player can i follow?
i'm really a newbie cause i have played for 2 1/2 years and i used to skip practices most of the time... Now i started to come in more intensively...

one point i would like to bring up, though i'm not entirely sure if i should bring it up here is, as my band does not require soprano sometimes, should i double tenor or alto? would my tone be affected?

[Paul Coats]

My article on Tone Production can be found at:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/tone_production.html