Newbee Flute Question: Open hole or closed

[Gandalfe]

I am considering learning the flute and I have Gordon (NZ)'s fine document on the subject. My regular instrument dealer gave me a Gemeinhardt 3SHB to look at that has a silver head, low B foot, gizmo keys and open key holes. My wife sez learning to play with instrument will be more difficult than one with closed holes.

I took the flute to my teacher to check it out and my dealer is offering it for $400. Anyone out there have any observations or recommendations?

Thanks!

[Wicked Good]

I learned to play flute on my open-hole Gemeinhardt M3. I did not find the open tone holes to be an issue, but then I'm mainly a clarinet player, so I'm used to them.

I've heard that if one finds the open holes bothersome, one can get some small corks from a music store to plug the holes, effectively turning the open-hole flute into a closed-hole flute. I don't know if this really works - maybe some real flautists can weigh in here?

[MS]

If I had it to do over, I would probably consider the closed hole (best quality I could afford) and perhaps even off-set G. I'm a doubler who studies each instrument with the best classic teacher I can find (who will tolerate me). Can't remember why as a youngster I bought open hole/lowB except that's what all the best players had. I'm playing less flute now, and a good closed hole would suit my purposes at this time as well if not better than the open hole.

The only use I've had for the low B is added weight and to make C3 come out clearer.

I can relate a story of one of my teachers in Detroit, about 1962. He had a great Haynes closed hole flute (Haynes was the hot ticket back then). After he waited almost a year for delivery, he started playing the new open hole flute, sounded great. The plan was to give his daughter the closed hole Haynes. A few weeks later, he shows back up with the closed hole. Never could get the reason out of him. He was also a major clarinet player, so the open holes shouldn't have presented a problem, but I think he sounded a little better on the closed hole-perhaps he was just used to it.

[Gandalfe]

So I had my sax instructor and his wife, a flutist look at the horn. His wife was reluctant to try it because she wasn't sure she was good enough to determine if this was a good instrument. She loved it and said it made her sound better than her current instrument does. The instructor sez the instrument plays well and the intonation is spot on. He asked what I was considering paying for it ($400) and said that was an excellent deal. Now I want to make my way through Gordon (NZ's) flute manuscripts and get started. Oh, I guess I should pay my friend the dealer too. :)

[JfW]

what about using hole plugs on the open holes?

[SuiZen]

You can start with all the holes plugged, and remove one at a time, until you get the hang of it.

Bill

[Dr_sax]

When I started playing an open hole flute (pearl) I made the plugs myself out of an old bottle cork. (Have a bottle of good red wine :lol: ). It worked ´till I got used to the flute and since the last 20 years I never used plugs again. I prefer the open hole sound.
Have fun playing

[DougR]

If you mess up cutting the plugs - you ma have to start over with a new bottle.

[zadu]

Yep DougR, third bottle, can't find the flute.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I prefer the open hole sound.


It is valid to say that only if you have compared flutes which are identical in EVERY other respect. This is very, very unlikely, so I question the validity of your statement.

There are dozens of parameters in flute design that DO affect the sound. Whether the holes are open or not almost certainly is not one of them.

There are probably more reasons why the sound would be worse than reasons why it could be better.

On every open hole flute there are only 5 notes of an octave chromatic scale which could be positively affected by the open holes. If the open holes do create a better sound then you would be noticing the inferior sound of those other notes. in the scale.

A more valid statement would be "I have talked myself into BELIEVING that I prefer the open hole sound"

I write this post in an effort undermine this particular open-hole myth in the minds of other readers. I realise that, as with religion, a believer cannot be convinced otherwise with reason.

There are one or two benefits in open holes - not used by 99% of players -but in my humble and reasoned opinion, sound cannot be one of them.

[I. Fallon]

I just traded a open hole Artley Wilkins Model open hole, B Foot) for an Artley Wilkins Model closed hole, C Foot). I am really happy with my current horn.

It is kind of neat to feel the sound pressure on your fingers with the open hole, but I have more control with the closed hole. An offet G would be a nice feature, but was never available on the Wilkins. The C foot is easier to navigate than the B foot. A split E feature would be nice for the E3 (also not available on the Wilkins, so I make do with a donut).

[SuzySax]

I suspect that Gandalfe won't know the difference for a while. He a sax guy considering doubling on the flute. It will be a couple of months of practice before he will start having preferences.

[MissNiceness]

For the doubler whose primary instrument is sax, I would suggest the closed hole.

I've been playing the flute as my primary instrument for about 12 years now. I play an open-hole Armstrong with an inline G and it's just what I'm used to...the closed holes make me feel as if I'm playing a 'toy'. But that's just mental.

Closed holes sound no worse than open ones. So why try to learn to cover holes with fingers when you don't have to? :roll:

[Gordon (NZ)]

Closed holes sound no worse than open ones. So why try to learn to cover holes with fingers when you don't have to?

So very, very true.

[cc]

I play an open hole flute. I like having the open holes for bending and sliding between notes that isn't possible on a closed hole. I only do these effects if I'm playing tunes in a jazz setting (which is most of the time). If I only played strict parts in shows or classical music, I would probably opt for closed hole. Why add another difficulty to the equation if you don't have to? I've been playing flute for 30 years and could never tell a real difference in sound between open and closed. And to be honest, I like the feel of the pop or thwack from a nice closed hole under my finger compared to the thud of an open hole closing. But for me, it's open hole because I'm so accustomed to the options of the effects I can use.

[disgruntleddave]

I have a bit of knowledge about flutes since my dad played one for a while.

Open hole flutes tend to play a bit more easily and 'open' - the open holes let more air get out of the flute at learlier point instead of going all the way down, as if the keys would be partially depressed. In my opinion its better to play an open holed flute - i have played a bit of each.

I dont have all that much experience but thats what i know. it would probably be easier to learn on a closed hole though.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I'd like to ask exactly what you are saying.

I know that it is the propaganda spread by flute players and teachers, and in acoustic theory it makes a little sense. However in reality it is nonsense, because the effect is so minor as to be undetectable.

on your flute, or any other open hole flute, of the 12 notes in a chromatic octave, only five of the notes have an open hole involved in a relevant way.

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that these five notes "play a bit more easily and 'open' " than the other 7 notes.

I have never heard anybody make this specific claim seriously. Therefore they should not be making the claim GENERALLY, as you have done. And you, of all people, with so little experience with flute... Why do you pass on this groundless myth to unsuspecting future believers when you do not have a valid foundation for it...... Or do you actually believe that those 5 particular notes sound more special than the others?

cc, you highlight what sees to be the ONLY valid reason for open holes, and this reason is relevant for perhaps only 5% of players

[disgruntleddave]

well i tried. logically, the closer pads get to the holes, the more muffled the tone will get, until they are closed and you have the next tone down. by means of realistic thinking you could compare a sax with pads closer/farther from the holes. only by my logical inference do i come by this conclusion, as i have noticed differences on my sax when specific pads are raised/lowered slightly.

by no means am i saying i know anything about flutes. Most of the things i know (which is almost 0) comes from my dad who owns and has played flute for i dont know how many tens of years.

thats all i have to say. wrong? right? i really dont know (nor care too much), but am just trying to give whatever limited input i can.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Once any pads are open about 0.3 times the diameter of the tone hole, then further opening has no further effect.

I suspect that the following are also true and relevant:

- I doubt that sax behaviour can be applied directly to flute, because on a sax, the exciter of the sound, the reed, behaves much more aggressively than the exciter for a flute, a stream of air.

- On a flute the tone holes are closer to the diameter of the bore than they are on a sax, so lifting a pad makes a more effective end to the air column.

[cc]

cc, you highlight what sees to be the ONLY valid reason for open holes, and this reason is relevant for perhaps only 5% of players

Nice to see at least something I do is relevant. But don't try to tell that to my kids. :lol:

Actually, after giving this more thought, ( and totally un-scientific) it seems to me that an open hole flute would deaden more sound than a closed hole because of presence of pad resonators on a closed hole when the keys are closed. The sound waves have further to travel in an open hole, when the key is closed, and ends up being muffled by the skin on your finger as opposed to the wave staying closer to the tube and being reflected off a piece of flat metal. I guess the only way to tell would be to be able to record both in a controlled setting. Use two of the same model flutes (same headjoint) with the only difference ( hopefully) being one is open and one is closed hole. There must be a flute company that's done this already though.

I also agree with Gordon that once a key is opened, be it open or closed, it makes no difference to the sound. An open hole doesn't 'open up' the sound or anything like that.

[cc]

whoops, forgot to close quote.

[Saxdaddy]

For quite awhile the trend has went towards inline G, low B, and open hole.
Since then players have been going back to offset G, because there was no positive effect sound wise, or feel or even comfort with the inline G, tone quality was not improved with the open hole, and many players believe that both intonation and tone quality are best on a closed hole, low c flute. In reality the head joint is the biggest factor on tone quality, and intonation on a flute. Often times a weak, or poor playing flute can be made to play much better, just by giving some attention to the strike wall.

[I. Fallon]

Slightly off subject.

Does anyone know why German flutes are always closed hole?

I can see them passing a law like one of their beer purity regulations.

Or is it because open hole flutes are identified with France?

[Gordon (NZ)]

More to the point, why did USA exhibit such apparently sheep-like behaviour in unqestioningly embracing open-hole, giving so little attention to the down-sides, and imagining certain non-existent benefits?

BTW NZ, with a tradition of prdominantly closed-hole, is now seeing many more open-holes, seemingly driven by sheepishly following USA, as we do in so many things.
*sigh*