Goodson line at LA Sax?

[Dr G]

I just saw Curt's message regarding Goodson LA Sax models coming with his padsets. http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38915 Interesting. Now there is a whole new line of Goodson horns, actually two - "Steve Goodson" and "SaxGourmet" per LA Sax: http://www.lasaxophones.com/saxgourmet.htm

Any news on these horns? As usual, Steve has lots of innovations to share - special vents, extra keys, elaborate engraving... Looks inviting.

I wish him well.

[Morry]

And it says the Saxgourmet line, intended for pros for whom money is no object, is the "SUPER-PREMIUM" line. :-)

[Harri Rautiainen]

George,

"New Product Announcement" forum is intendended for the merchants to annouce (and only once) their new products.

That is why I moved your post.

-Harri

[rim shot]

Gosh, I feel this strang sense of deja vu coming over me....

[Dr G]

"New Product Announcement" forum is intendended for the merchants to annouce (and only once) their new products.

That is why I moved your post.

Thanks, Harri. I understand your reasoning.

However, given that people will only see this post if they go looking in the LA Sax forum, and it may be of broader interest since there was significant Goodson buzz associated with the Unison horns, might it be better placed in the General Discussion forum rather than in a Brands forum?

Thanks.

[Harri Rautiainen]

Thanks, Harri. I understand your reasoning.

However, given that people will only see this post if they go looking in the LA Sax forum, and it may be of broader interest since there was significant Goodson buzz associated with the Unison horns, might it be better placed in the General Discussion forum rather than in a Brands forum?
Thanks.In my opinion: no.

LA Sax is a LA Sax is a LA Sax, Goodson or not.
I do not see why a "Goodson design" should enjoy here any preferential treatment.

[gary]

Hmmm. I open. I read.

(whispers:I gently back out of the room.) ;)

[Hurling Frootmig]

I would recommend that if anyone is interested in these horns that they either contact Steve Goodson about them or LA SAX. It is my undertanding that these horns are being distrubuted by the parent company of LA SAX but are not LA SAX horns.

If anyone hears of these being available in the Chicago area please let me know and I will gladly check them out. It seems that wwbw is carrying them and at some point I'll head over that way for my periodic sax tryout day. Of course, I have a couple of killer VI's (and some great vintage horns) so it's not like I will find anything but you never know (not that I would get rid of the VI's).

[Dog Pants]

Back away very slowly and don't make eye contact.

[Blackwolf42]

I'm having trouble keeping up with your avatars, Dog Pants. :)

[Dog Pants]

So am I. :D

Just join the Church of Scientology, and all things are possible!

I might go hang out in the Forum Lounge and jump a few couch's.

[Harri Rautiainen]

I would recommend that if anyone is interested in these horns that they either contact Steve Goodson about them or LA SAX. It is my undertanding that these horns are being distrubuted by the parent company of LA SAX but are not LA SAX horns.
............................Maybe I should clarify my above statement.

This thread is titled: "Goodson line at LA Sax?"

Because there is a question mark I will go to the LA Sax web site, and sure enough, they have four product lines:
> L.A. Sax Series I
> L.A. Sax Series II
> Steve Goodson
> Saxgourmet

In the "Saxophone Makes and Models" we try to have sections for all major saxophone models. I am combining obscure models based on the best information available to me.

[mvspur]

I hate rumors almost as much as the next guy, but I'm close to this. Closer than you think. I've been told that Tom Scott fell in love with the Sax Gourmet horn so much so that he is going to put his CJS down and play one.

He hung out at the booth at the NAMM show and was blown away by the horn. For those of you curious enough to have read this far, the Sax Gourmet horn is "supposed to be" everything the VI is/was.....only better. It's been modeled after Goodson's personal horn that he has stated will not be sold for ANY price.

As we have already said.....only time will tell. Personally...I'm getting ready for a test drive, myself. Jerry at Orpheus swears I'll toss my Guardalas in the river for one of these things. Again....we'll see.

I know alot of you out there will take this post and pick it apart and so forth. I'm just trying to initiate a little conversation. No bashing, please.

Harry, thanks for the forum. It's by far the best one out there.

Mike

[Mark5047]

Mike,

Like you, I am a fan of LA Sax. Also Jerry at Orpheus seems to be a stand-up guy (slang for a decent bloke for you non-americans)
Anyway, you seem to be close to the situation there - and also I remember back towards the end of the year last year (or very early this year) you were supposed to take a "test drive" of the Goodson horns. May I ask why this has taken you so long when you seem to be so near? You were excited about the prospect of trying out one of these and if so, why the 6 month wait?
Like you, I am not trying to pick a fight here, just ask an honest question.
To my mind it seems like every few months we get someone who leaves a message regarding these horns - a friend of a friend play tested one, yadda yadda yadda and still no honest review to be had.
Just curious
BTW - I agree with you - this is the best board of its type out there!!

[gary]

Mark, you get extra Brownie points and induction into "Tact of the Month" club. :)

[mvspur]

I can honestly say that I had a VERY small window earlier this year to play the prototype horn and to their defense, it was me that broke the engagement. They want to have the "volume" come in so that they can splash down with a great product and be able to fulfill orders. I will not get into a historical debate about how things "used to be" with any specific dealer or individual for that matter. I say this fully knowing that as a customer, that is all we have to go by in terms of service and reputation.

I also know what is fully intended by the release of these horns. Their head and their heart is in the right place, my friends. I have literally been treated like royalty in every dealing with Jerry at Orpheus, so I know they have it in them to actually care about the client. For those of you that have not read anything else I've posted regarding Jerry, ALL of my horns came from him. I will probably buy my Bari from him when the time comes.

On another note.....

As consumers, we are sick and tired of empty promises. Let's be honest.....How many times have you heard that the latest release of brand X equipment is all you will ever need? You guys are very smart people and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that Charlie Parker's King Super 20 made beautiful music. Guys...it wasn't the horn. The simple fact that it spent a great deal of time in the pawn shop is living proof of that. Nothing beats time well spent in the woodshed. So let's lighten up a bit and when the horns are available, let's play them and see for ourselves. I'm telling you....that Tom Scott story was not fiction.

Very Respectfully.....

Mike

[Randall]

MV, before you dump your DG alto in the river for an LA sax, be sure to give me first dibs on it!;)

[mvspur]

Randall,

Here's where my stubborn nature overcomes me. No matter how much I like this horn. I don't think I will EVER part with my Guardalas. Oh man....don't get me started about those horns. I know this is not a B&S thread, but they sure knew how to make saxophones. Just a shame that it's no more.

Having said that, Jerry still insists that they will be orphaned.

Knowing that the CJS horns that Tom Scott plays are identical to mine kinda makes me wonder, though. Whether or not you like Tom Scott doesn't matter. He's an accomplished professional who's opinion has loads of merit in my book.

Like I said......we'll see. I'm particularly interested in the ALL black nickel tenor. Yes...the whole horn, not just the body.

Thanks all for your input.

Mike

[Hurling Frootmig]

Just tell me which river and what time so I can be there to save it. :D

[Mark5047]

Mike

Fair enough. Thanks for the update and be sure to tell us your impressions of the new LA-SG model(s)

PS - when you are in the store, ask Jerry if he has any more 650's in burnished brass layin around.... :)

[Grumps]

I hate rumors almost as much as the next guy, but I'm close to this. Closer than you think.

Are you close enough to tell us where the horns are manufactured? The designer has refused to reveal this information.

[mvspur]

Grumps,

Yes....I'm that close to it, and to be honest, spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys and I think you know what my choice would be if faced with that decision. I'm very confident that they visit this site pretty regularly to see what people are saying about their horns. I do not work for them, but because of the money I have spent there, they treat me like family. I have an idea, though. Let's all play the SG horn and decide for ourselves. If you literally fall in love with it (as Tom Scott has), why does it matter where it's made? Tom's new one is being specially made for him and will have some additional custom engraving on it, including his name. Man, what a deal.

I mean...I love my Guardala horns, but not because they say Guardala on them, or because they were made by B&S in Germany. I love them because they play better than anything I have ever had in my hands. How many people do you know that buy a Mark VI just because it's a Mark VI and then insist on fighting with the intonation problems that they are characteristicly known for just to be able to show the world they have a Mark VI? That's not good decision-making in my book. Please do not take offense to my Selmer comments. The horn is mythical as you all know. I just can't figure out why. I've owned and played them. I'll take my horns over them any day of the week.

Mark,

I called Jerry after seeing your request and he told me to tell you that you're in luck. The demand for that particular finish is higher than they could have imagined and they were supposed to be getting more at the end of this month. They have been made and are in the setup process and should be here in June. They were actually thinking of doing away with this finish. Can you believe that? I'm thinking about buying the Alto, Tenor, and Bari "just because". That's how much I like it. Jay Beckenstein still sounds great on his.

All,

Please accept my apologies regarding the request. I want friends here, not enemies. I hope you understand. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all. It's just that you asked the ten thousand dollar question and I am not allowed to go there without consequence. I value my relationship with these people more than you know.

Again....very respectfully.

Mike

[hornimus]

I recall (or was it a hallucination?) that WWBW had the Goodsen (sic) and saxgourmet sax lines listed on their site, but now I cannot find any links there. Anyone know what happened?

[Harri Rautiainen]

Grumps,
Yes....I'm that close to it, and to be honest, spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys and I think you know what my choice would be if faced with that decision.
..............................
Again....very respectfully.
Mike
Did Dick Fenno destroy his ties after posting this?:
....................
The fit and finish were excellent. They are made in the PRC so they will be priced at the dealers' very aggresssively I assume. The alto feels just right and its features merit more time than I had to devote to it last Friday.

There are enough features on this instrument to make it at least worthy of consideration when production is ramped (winter NAMM is the target).

You may not love Goodson. You may have heard from some of the posts here that he's a scoundrel. (I beg to differ as someone who was just outside the circle on that one. Most problems grew out of the distributor's inability to distribute.)
............................

[mvspur]

Guys,

Please remember that the LA SAX Steve Goodson model and the Saxgourmet "Six" are two different horns. The Saxgourmet horns are not out yet for the consumer. Tom Scott's new horn is a Saxgourmet. WWBW had the wrong picture for the Goodson model.

PRC, huh? Interesting.....

Have a great evening, all.

Mike

[Harri Rautiainen]

Grumps,
Yes....I'm that close to it, and to be honest, spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys and I think you know what my choice would be if faced with that decision. I'm very confident that they visit this site pretty regularly to see what people are saying about their horns. I do not work for them, but because of the money I have spent there, they treat me like family.
......................
Bolding by HR
Ooops, I thought I stepped into something unmentionable. :twisted:

[Grumps]

...spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys...
What are they, the sax mafia? You lose credibility here by witholding what you claim to know. Country of manufacture is a legitimate buying concern, and it's not like they can be sold without revealing same. To delay the inevitable gives the appearance of impropriety.

...but because of the money I have spent there, they treat me like family.
Hmmm... family... there we go again. Well, give them your money and they'll treat you right. Dare question them with legitimate customer concerns, and see how you're treated.

I have an idea, though. Let's all play the SG horn and decide for ourselves. If you literally fall in love with it (as Tom Scott has), why does it matter where it's made? Tom's new one is being specially made for him and will have some additional custom engraving on it, including his name. Man, what a deal.
I have a better idea... let's all play one before we declare "what a deal" and liken it to the second coming... although, in a way... it is. Funny how folks forget. Anyhow, the impression I get is order one first... then you'll find out where it's from.

[mvspur]

After reading the subsequent posts, I should have just said I was clueless. I guess I'm the bad guy for following through with a request.

Lesson learned.

Have a great day.

Mike

[Grumps]

mvspur,
You act as if you've been wronged here, when instead you came to plug a new model of saxophone that you've never played, and of which you are admittedly witholding information. I don't see how on earth you could be offended by the subsequent posts. But you are right... if you don't wish to have your ideas and opinions scrutinized and can not rationally defend same; don't bother.

[Bill Mecca]

Grumps,

I find asking a certain designer where his horns are manufactured is akin to reporters asking an actor if he is gay, and him responding that he doesn't respond to those type questions.

The bigger question is when will the vapor disappear and and the wares appear? it's a circuitous situation. I think Billy Preston had a hit describing it.

[Grumps]

I find asking a certain designer where his horns are manufactured is akin to reporters asking an actor if he is gay, and him responding that he doesn't respond to those type questions.
It is all so silly. Truly silly. The public refusal to reveal the country of manufacture is so glowing a red flag that it boggles the mind. You'd think somebody up on the corporate ladder could see that... or would hope they'd want to clear up any misconceptions. Not how I'd like to launch a new product.

[Bill Mecca]

I agree with you, and I wouldn't "announce" a product until it was shipping. but maybe that's wrong, I don't know, but it's how I feel.

[hornimus]

.....like a bird up in the sky...... uh-huuh! Overtaken by the stench of marketing. Where's saxtrolls.net when ya need it?

[martysax]

I find asking a certain designer where his horns are manufactured is akin to reporters asking an actor if he is gay, and him responding that he doesn't respond to those type questions.

Would you ask a Thespian if she was a Lesbian? (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

How about my hell? I sell new Toyotas! Talk about trying to be truthful in the face of non-believers! People ask to see the invoice, I show it, and then they say they don't believe it! I re-create the same numbers based upon their favorite web-site, and they still don't trust it! Even when they finally agree on a dealer "Cost," they still offer a thousand less than their perceived cost!:banghead: :banghead:


The bigger question is when will the vapor disappear and and the wares appear? it's a circuitous situation. I think Billy Preston had a hit describing it.

That's what the typical macho car buyer expert ends up with. Eventually he'll buy something like a Chevy because his buddy bought one. He'll be lulled by factory "incentives" that unwittingly destroy his resale value. I'll see him in a few years, hating his past purchase and wanting to make amends and buy my Toyota. Unfortunately, he's insulted that his car is worth half of what he paid for it and is in a negative equity situation. Now he can't afford the Toyota, and has to drive his POS until he raises more cash. Even worse, another Chevy dealer might dig his hole deeper by rolling his inequity into another loan!


The happiest people know what they want, purchase what they want at what they feel is a fair price. Typically, happy people don't mind giving profit for a good feeling throughout the purchase process. Whenever they come to the dealership, they come over and give a pleasant "Hello, How are You?"

The people who grind for a ridiculously low price look for every piece of lint on delivery, constantly call and visit my salesmen to complain (about nothing related to the salesmen), and give us a terrible survey.

Some people can afford to be happy. Some are too cheap to be happy, and will be miserable even in success.:!:

Sorry for my rant, it was a tough day for the past few years. So, how are these Goodson LA saxes?:)

[gary]

In the meantime Marty posted, so I'm going to backtrack a second and say that whatever the case, Mike is not Orpheus music, LA Sax, Unison or Steve Goodson and I see no reason to hound the guy.

He is under absolutely no obligation to reveal things told him in confidence. He is not accountable for information he might even not know. If any of us have an understanding with our friends to hold something in confidence, we are not under any obligation to betray that confidence simply because a few SOTW posters can't stand being in the dark. An attack on that person is just unwarranted, sorry.

This attack on Mike is way out of proportion to the information he was trying to relay and, fankly, I'm surprised no one has had the cahones to rise to his defense. These problems are not about Mike. They stem initially from SG and Unison. Let's attack the right people and not a scapegoat. Good grief!

[Mark5047]

I totally agree with Gary here. I was asking honest questions of Mike and was trying not to sound like I was attacking him. Next thing you know the dude is pushed against the wall. I think there are still some issues with the previous SG instruments - be that as it may, to our knowledge Mike is not involved with that in any way.

Mike, thank you for asking the question of Jerry RE: the burnished brass soprano. As you can see from my sig, I have an alto and tenor right now and I love them both. The ergonomics, the tone, and the look!

Thanks again!
Mark

[tophatsax]

In the meantime Marty posted, so I'm going to backtrack a second and say that whatever the case, Mike is not Orpheus music, LA Sax, Unison or Steve Goodson and I see no reason to hound the guy.

He is under absolutely no obligation to reveal things told him in confidence. He is not accountable for information he might even not know. If any of us have an understanding with our friends to hold something in confidence, we are not under any obligation to betray that confidence simply because a few SOTW posters can't stand being in the dark. An attack on that person is just unwarranted, sorry.

This attack on Mike is way out of proportion to the information he was trying to relay and, fankly, I'm surprised no one has had the cahones to rise to his defense. These problems are not about Mike. They stem initially from SG and Unison. Let's attack the right people and not a scapegoat. Good grief!
:cheers:

[Gimish]

I usually just lurk here, but I wanted to veryfy the Tom Scott story. I met and heard him at the L.A. Sax booth at NAMM and he told me this was hands down the greatest horn he had ever played.

I was a visitor to NAMM, and in two days I tried to visit every saxophone exhibit. Almost none of the horns were labelled as to the country of manufacture. A few were, but the majority were not. I don't recall that any of the major brands except Selmer were labelled, and almost none of the brands outside the big four were labelled. It seems like this may have been required a long time ago, but is not currently a requirement. Maybe everybody could look at recently purchased horns and tell us what they say?

[retread]

Threads on this subject always seem to attract a first-time poster.

[mvspur]

Thanks Gimish. Glad to know that someone else knows the story and in your case, witnessed it. And thanks to you few guys for coming to my defense. You are CLASS!

Harry, from many perspectives, you have the greatest forum on this planet. As I've already stated....I want friends here. It is my fault for thinking "out loud" in the post where I said I knew what was going on. None of the jabs would have taken place if I would have simply posted that I didn't know. Again....I've learned my lesson.

It wouldn't matter if this horn was made in some remote village in Bangladesh (it's not, BTW) as long as it delivered when called upon and in finer fashion than anything else you had played up to that point. This horn will make more than one kind of statement when it gets here. The problem is that most people will not want to accept that statement, because their close-minded "big 4" frame of mind and allegiance will keep them from doing so.

There has never been a horn made like this one. You don't have to play it as you can see that just from looking at it. I don't care what your opinion of Goodson is. He knows the mechanics of the horn and he knows how to improve it.

I'll eat crow in front of all of you if I'm wrong. Just hearing Tom talk about the horn has me excited. Keep in mind, he's putting a killer horn on the shelf just to play this one. Sometimes it ain't about the money.

So guys...please accept my apologies for engaging in this conversation when I should have declined. It is very unfair to do that and I am truly sorry. I want to keep the friends I have here and continue to enjoy the interaction regardless of the subject matter at hand.

I will promise you this: When I get to play the Saxgourmet Six, you guys will be the first to hear about it.

Very Respectfully.......

Mike

[Morry]

Threads on this subject always seem to attract a first-time poster.

How true.:)

[Hurling Frootmig]

It wouldn't matter if this horn was made in some remote village in Bangladesh (it's not, BTW) as long as it delivered when called upon and in finer fashion than anything else you had played up to that point. This horn will make more than one kind of statement when it gets here. The problem is that most people will not want to accept that statement, because their close-minded "big 4" frame of mind and allegiance will keep them from doing so.



I agree that where something is made doesnt' necessarily bother me much although I will be honest and say that I wish a pro horn could be made in the U.S. again.



There has never been a horn made like this one. You don't have to play it as you can see that just from looking at it. I don't care what your opinion of Goodson is. He knows the mechanics of the horn and he knows how to improve it.



That's a bold statement. There are a lot of great horns out there and I have never believed that one size fits all so I'm not sure how to go from here.

I believe each player will have to try out the horn for themselves and make their own determination if it is the "holy grail" of saxophones or not. I'd love to see a high level consistent horn available to the masses for a reasonable price but what I consider the "holy grail" is going to be different from the next player. I haven't seen a horn yet that meets the needs of every saxophonist.

[danarsenault]

This is an interesting discussion to me, and has been every time the subject has appeared, in all its guises.

Soon, I'll be announcing a new web site for US Internet sales of a new line of instruments from Taiwan. I've been working on this for many months. I have met the Taiwanese involved, and I know where the instruments are coming from. The hard part is meeting a value space. We're working on great instruments to compete with any in the world from a Taiwanese factory in the tradidional district that has been making parts and instruments for compnaines in the US and Europe for several decades. They will be priced lower than current top-end Taiwanese instruments.

All of this will change my realtionship to SOTW completely. I'll have to be more like the Kesslers, and no more flip offhand comments. So be it.

About fog: It may be the case that they do not know themselves who makes their instruments. I can tell you that musical instrument manufacture follows labor costs versus skills like most other things. Instruments are made in the PRC, India, Brazil, everywhere, really. Go to NAMM and get a PRC alto like I did for $150.00. Nice horn, too.

We will have a formal announcement this summer about the site. One interesting teaser - we are still planning to allow you to design your own sax. You pick from lists of options and then we build it. It takes 3 to 4 months, but we think there will be interest. When we are 'live' I hope we will have our own manufacturer forum here.

[Bill Mecca]

One interesting teaser - we are still planning to allow you to design your own sax. You pick from lists of options and then we build it. It takes 3 to 4 months, but we think there will be interest. When we are 'live' I hope we will have our own manufacturer forum here.


Now THAT, sounds cool8-)

[JMac]

The only reason I would take issue with the location of a horn's manufacture or assembly is in the pricing.

If someone is stenciling a horn manufactured in PRC at a cost of $250 - $600 per unit and then asking the consumer to pay well in excess of $6,000 for the horn, well, that ain't cricket in my book :doubt:

[Carl H.]

That sounds like the old story of the company with a problem with one of its machines. None of its experts could fix it so they called in "THE" expert. He looks at the machine, plugs this into that and slides that over there and gives them a bill for $50,000.
They complained that they were being robbed for a few seconds of work.

If you want to get the deal do the leg work, make the contacts and the investment yourself. Don't begrudge the guy who made the effort to become the "expert" a return on his investment.

Pay what it is worth to you, not what it cost the other guy. Sometimes you are better off not knowing. (Machine shipped out for 8 weeks vs 30 seconds)

[Morry]

I don't care what your opinion of Goodson is. He knows the mechanics of the horn and he knows how to improve it.

That is a matter of great debate. There have been plenty of anecdotal reports of SG completely screwing up horns taken to him for repair, or losing them altogether. I think I'll wait and see if they pop up on ebay for ridiculously low second-hand prices like his last version did.

[Grumps]

I usually just lurk here, but I wanted to veryfy the Tom Scott story.

Actually, you've posted here before as Gimish, didn't you? Right at the time when the site went down for a number of days, if I recall correctly. I believe your previous posts were lost then, but again, if I recall correctly, said posts were along a similar line as you're taking here.

[Harri Rautiainen]

Thanks Gimish. Glad to know that someone else knows the story and in your case, witnessed it. And thanks to you few guys for coming to my defense. You are CLASS!
......................
Threads on this subject always seem to attract a first-time poster.
Gimish is a first-time poster.
................
Harry, from many perspectives, you have the greatest forum on this planet. As I've already stated....I want friends here.
.....................You got that one right.
.....................
It is my fault for thinking "out loud" in the post where I said I knew what was going on. None of the jabs would have taken place if I would have simply posted that I didn't know. Again....I've learned my lesson.
I am really for life-long-learning.
.................................................. ....
It wouldn't matter if this horn was made in some remote village in Bangladesh (it's not, BTW) as long as it delivered when called upon and in finer fashion than anything else you had played up to that point.
We are getting bits and pieces: Now we know where it is not made in.
Will the family get angry if we start excluding possible manufacturing locations one by one?

[JMac]

If you want to get the deal do the leg work, make the contacts and the investment yourself. Don't begrudge the guy who made the effort to become the "expert" a return on his investment.

Pay what it is worth to you, not what it cost the other guy. Sometimes you are better off not knowing. (Machine shipped out for 8 weeks vs 30 seconds)I certainly did not say I would only pay what it cost the other guy. This is not a case of a single expert. There are plenty of them out there - and most of them have a lot lower mark up. Is this horn the bee's knees - perhaps for some. I don't believe any single horn is the best for everyone. I do hope this horn is all it should be, and that whoever is involved can do it right where ‘the family’ couldn't before - for those of you who are in the market.

I am also curious, if they are being distributed by Orpheus, where will they be ‘retailed’? I thought I had read they would only be available from the hornsmasher himself.

AS far as the innovator label, isn’t most of the stuff he puts on his horns stuff that was previously done? Of course, there is nothing wrong with so doing, it simply isn’t innovative - more derivative.

From alt.music.saxophone:
I'm putting the finishing design touches on the Category Five horns in the
Saxgourmet line and would like to have pictures of any of the following
mechanisms if you have an example in your personal stash:
1) Open low C# key with three key touches on the RH pinky table
2) High C to high D trill key
3) Forked Eb mechanism different from Conn/Buescher. Seems like I've seen
a Martin with an unusual speaker key on the low D cup....
4) G# trill mechanisms different from Conn/Buescher
5) Double G pad systems different from the old Kings
6) Conn-O-Sax high F# and high G mechanism
7) Mechanisms that open the high E pad when the palm F is pressed
8) Mechanisms that open the palm D when the palm Eb is pressed
9) Any other beneficial out of the ordinary mechanisms

The more you put on a horn, the tougher it is to keep it set up properly, IMHO. I also seem to recall that one of the innovations on his previous masterpiece caused some adjustment and intonation issues. When his loyal forum posters raised the issue, they were reassured the problem was that they were such amateurs….

The guy certainly has one area of expertise – parting people from their cash. Maybe this time he can deliver the goods…

[Pannonia]

My concern with many of these upcoming instruments dealers is the issue of long term support. There are many reasons the Big 4 are leading the market, but a very important and often overlooked aspect of the instrument business is service.
The smaller instrument distributors seem to come and go often leaving customers with no supply of replacement parts. That uncertainty devalues instruments from the beginning. You can make the best saxophones at good prices if customers don't trust that you will be in the business long enough to get support. It takes a long time to be on the market for people to feel comfortable and buy your products. A good example is Cannonball. They get all their parts from Asia, make decent instruments and have been in the business for a decade now (please correct me if dating is wrong). People buy their products and their instruments even have some resale value.

Will I pay $2K or $3K for a revolutionary new saxophone that has no dealer network and little chance of providing customer service two years from now? No.

Something similar has happened to me with an Italian motorcycle. Importer pulled out after four years and can't get parts even from Italy. :evil:

[Grumps]

When his loyal forum posters raised the issue, they were reassured the problem was that they were such amateurs….

Oh my, that was some great reading. Unidentified piece of metal falling off, loose/stripped screws, premature plating wear, high end intonation problems, low end response... The best of the bunch was the guy who had complained of some of those problems and tried to order another one. Not being able to do that, he picked one up on Ebay for a grand; one that had very public complaints of problematic intonation as reported by its original owner prior to the sale. I believe it was later reported that a phone call to an intonational wizard cured the problem and all was fine and dandy. Fade to black...

[bkiser]

Separated at birth???

P.Mauriat System 76: System 76 (http://www.pmauriatmusic.com/system76-mainpage.htm)

Saxgourmet Model Six:
Saxgourmet Model 6 (http://saxnation.com/forum/files/model_six_1_167.jpg)

Of course, these horns are not identical, but there are some definite visual similarities, especially looking at some of the engraving. Personally, I'd like a crack at either one of them.

[Morry]

Separated at birth???

P.Mauriat System 76: System 76 (http://www.pmauriatmusic.com/system76-mainpage.htm)

Saxgourmet Model Six:
Saxgourmet Model 6 (http://saxnation.com/forum/files/model_six_1_167.jpg)

Of course, these horns are not identical, but there are some definite visual similarities, especially looking at some of the engraving. Personally, I'd like a crack at either one of them.

Look at the little brace or nameplate or whatever it is below the left hand stack. I think we may have solved where the saxgourmet horns are made. :-)

[Mark5047]

Wow - 6 grand for a P. Mauriat look-a-like. Wonder if it plays as well as a P.

[bkiser]

Well, if you look at actual sales prices, the WWBW price of the Model 6 is about the same as the street price on the System 76.

But, it begs the question- who actually makes the P.M. as well, and what other "brands" are made there? Is there a $1000 horn that plays as well as a P.M out there, but maybe just has a plain gold lacquer finish and no engraving?

After reading up some on the Taiwanese sax industry, I suspect that we will never know....

[Randall]

The P Mauriats are being sold in Japan under the name "Cadeson" with a lot fewer options and flavors.
We will probably never know for sure until we go there and see the big 4 factories in Taiwan and get the inside story from them. One thing I do know for a fact is that the Cannonball factory does supply horns for stenciling.
I will not say that these horns are exactly like a current Stone Series Cannonball, but certainly the similarities are greater than the differences.

A dear friend of mine is selling them under his own brand name, so I know this to be fact.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Your friend is selling Cannonball's under his own brand name?

[Randall]

Hurling, yes...the horns he sells are made in the CB factory, but are not the current big bell models. They are the model right before the Big Bells came out.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Stacey]

The WWBW price on the alto Model Six is $2995, or about $100 higher than the street price of a System 76 tenor. At the moment WWBW does not show the Model Six tenor in their online catalog, but I can only assume it will be somewhat higher than the WWBW price for the Model Six alto.

Good luck figuring out what's what in those product lines. At Steve's forum, he has posted that his "Steve Goodson Model" horns and his "Saxgourmet Series" horns are not LA Sax models, and goes to great lengths to poke fun at the SOTW posters who dared believe otherwise. However, WWBW advertises the "LA Sax Model Six Alto Saxophone" designed by Steve Goodsen (sic), and if you go to the LA Sax website, you will read "LA Sax has collaborated with Steve Goodson to develop additional models: “Steve Goodson” and “Saxgourmet”." Whatever. At least back in the Unison days we all knew the horn was a Unison model, designed (or compiled from designs of the past) by Steve Goodson.

Maybe Steve has just reached the epitome of low-volume customized production, where every horn/prototype is a new line unto itself.


But, it begs the question- who actually makes the P.M. as well, and what other "brands" are made there? Is there a $1000 horn that plays as well as a P.M out there, but maybe just has a plain gold lacquer finish and no engraving?

Yeah, probably. Time will tell, maybe.

A year ago I played a horn with an awesome tone, fast action, and good ergonomics that Saxmaniax.com couldn't GIVE away because it had worn lacquer and was a modern Conn. Anyone who REALLY just cared about the tone could have had an awesome horn for $350.

[bkiser]

Yeah...I missed that WWBW was showing the alto rather than the tenor. In looking at Steve's photos of the new Category 5 horn which is coming...it sure bears a striking resemblance to current Unisons. Personally, if he is able to add value to the horns (some like the extra gadgets and innovations more than others), then I am all in favor of having better horns to choose from and the marketplace will ultimately decide what they are worth. And, that applies to the PMs marketed by Roger Greenberg as well as the new Goodson-improved horns, no matter what their origins. I think that it would be supremely beneficial to be able to identify the originating factory of various horns so as to be able to make informed decisions about the quality. Unfortuantely, the Taiwanese factories are relatively unknown to consumers, and have no marketable reputation. If there is one factory building superior saxes, I sure would be interested in knowing which one it is and being able to identify those saxes. Having owned an early Jupiter alto back in the 80s (which went out of regulation every 12 notes played), I have a hard time thinking about paying $3000 for a Taiwanese horn, but I hope that my prejudice is ultimately proven incorrect.

[Hurling Frootmig]

All I can say is that in my opinion the horns from China and from Taiwan have come a long way in the last few years. I have one horn made in Taiwan. An Antigua Winds A-590SPC soprano. A really nice horn.

The PM's that I have played are decent horns. They're not what I'm looking for . . .the system 76 might be closer but I don't really need any new horns as I prefer vintage stuff.

[Grumps]

I usually just lurk here, but I wanted to veryfy the Tom Scott story. I met and heard him at the L.A. Sax booth at NAMM and he told me this was hands down the greatest horn he had ever played.
Looks like Gimish was here plugging his own horn... but you all probably already knew that.
Gimish on alt.music.saxophone (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.saxophone/browse_frm/thread/77cd23a21a9c7f9d/e48de9ac224c23dd?tvc=1&hl=en#e48de9ac224c23dd)

[retread]

Busted! Good work, Grumps.

[Morry]

Very funny. That's the problem with lying - you have to keep your stories straight.

[Steve J.]

Nice catch Grumps!

[Bernards20040]

"Essentially" the same person;)

Grumps gets this weeks super slueth award:twisted:

[Grumps]

What's truly a hoot is if you cross reference this latest ordeal with his known, and frequently voiced, opinions regarding anonymous posting on internet forums.

[Bill Mecca]

Grumps, the word "troll" popped into my head, don't know why, but think I've heard somebody mention that term a lot and how she despises them.

[Grumps]

Well, generally what people despise the most in other folks are traits they share, yet refuse, or are unable to recognize.

[Bill Mecca]

Grumps, you reading my mind again? I had something similar in my post, but wasn't sure if it was clear, so deleted it... you said what I was thinking. ;)

[Harri Rautiainen]

You may call me Gimish
or you may call me sinjarah
or you may call me Hyman Irons
or you may call me Lomar Manx.

But don't call me Saxgourmet. :twisted:

[JMac]

You may call me Gimish
or you may call me sinjarah
or you may call me Hyman Irons
or you may call me Lomar Manx.

But don't call me Saxgourmet. :twisted:

Judging solely by the unfortunate experience of others... I think hornsmasher is the most fitting nom-de-plume chosen by the plume of fuzzy hair....:D

[Grumps]

I think hornsmasher is the most fitting nom-de-plume...
Funny thing too about that one... is when he first started using it on alt.music.saxophone, it was for his anonymous postings as well. It was only after being called out on it that he started using it with his full name and business contact info. I recall in the old days all kinds of folks used to plug for him. Wonder what happened to them.

[Bill Mecca]

all comes down to three little letters.

E, G, O.

[Al Stevens]

...spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys...because of the money I have spent there, they treat me like family
It is my experience that such relationships are based more on the money than on the beans. :)

[Al Stevens]

I usually just lurk here, but I wanted to veryfy the Tom Scott story. I met and heard him at the L.A. Sax booth at NAMM and he told me this was hands down the greatest horn he had ever played.
That's about what Phil Woods says about the YAS 82Z UL.

...strokes...folks.

[Grumps]

Well, here's one that didn't do too well on Ebay:
Goodson Alto (http://cgi.ebay.com/PRO-ALTO-STEVE-GOODSON-MODEL-GOLD-LACQUER-LA-SAX_W0QQitemZ120016844611QQihZ002QQcategoryZ16232Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Kinda pricey for a horn that at least one insider has said comes from the PRC. Also, no return policy for a brand new horn and from a dealer, no less. You do get a one year warranty, but if that involves shipping the horn back to the maker for repairs, well... guess it's best to ask the seller what the terms are.

There's another one in silver plate offered. Perhaps someone will ask the seller where it's made...

[mvspur]

After reading my posts on this subject, it seems as though my words could be interpreted as though someone told me where they were made and then asked me not to say anything about it. This is not true. I need to clear this up. My intent in my original posts was simply to make it known that I value my relationship with this company and that I would not disclose any information that is not made available to everyone for fear of damaging said relationship. Having said that, I still do not know where these horns are manufactured and last time I asked the question, that information was not available to the public. I can sit here and speculate with the rest of you and we will get nowhere. If you have issue with this, please take it up with the appropriate individual(s)

I'm curious to know who your "insider" is and where they got their information.

Respectfully,

Mike

[Al Stevens]

I'm curious to know who your "insider" is and where they got their information.

It was probably just someone who is close enough to know and would be spilling the beans, but doesn't care all that much about beans. :)

[Saxaholic]

Wow, Goodson busted. What a complete *****. We should all create a mass-mailing list of every sax player we know...and send this information to them. I'm feeling so...just completely disgusted right now. It's hard to believe scum like him exist in the saxophone world.

Saxaholic

[mvspur]

How can you think someone got busted here? I'm not Steve Goodson. Furthermore, why is there so much venom in this thread?

I'm really curious.

Mike

[Saxaholic]

Mvspur,

No one said you were Steve Goodson. The person who posted as "Gimish", was actually Steve Goodson...trying to raise praise for his new saxophone he designed. He's done this in the past before; posing as another person to try and raise his own products' standards. Search "Goodson" on the forum and you'll find many, many interesting topics.

Saxaholic

[Grumps]

I'm curious to know who your "insider" is and where they got their information.
It was Rick Fenno, and he posted it on this very site.
Now be gone, minion...

[retread]

...why is there so much venom in this thread?
Five years or so ago, SG was an honored and appreciated member of this forum. Then he introduced the first SG sax, using his reputation on SOTW to promote it here. The sax apparently did not go as planned. Many forum members remember this and are very suspicious of any posts that promote his saxophones, especially because many posts praising the new SG sax appear to either come from SG in disguise, or from people he may have enticed to shill for him. Hyperbole is the first warning flag.

[gary]

...and it got emotional!

That has carried over to Steve's negative comments about SOTW and its members on his own, alternative forum, and his posts on other forums as well.

[Grumps]

It's probably a waste of time to try to explain this to mvspur. I don't find him the least bit credible, and here's why:

Early on I asked him if he was close enough to the designer to know where the horns are made. Here was his response:
Yes....I'm that close to it, and to be honest, spilling the beans would mean destroying my relationship with those guys and I think you know what my choice would be if faced with that decision.
Clearly that response infers knowledge of where the horns are made.

Now he says this:
...I still do not know where these horns are manufactured and last time I asked the question, that information was not available to the public.
Not only is it comical that he's asked for himself where the horns are made, despite his stated opinion that it is irrelevant, but now he's playing dumb. Kinda like Rick Fenno did in his follow up post. What happened in between posting? For both mvspur and Mr. Fenno. Were they contacted by the designer? Were they given talking points?

Same old, same old.

[Saxaholic]

Thanks, Grumps. I was just about to make a post concerning this, as I had caught this as well. Keep up the good work!

Saxaholic

[mvspur]

Fair enough. I tried to own up to a poor choice of words on my behalf. Let's get something straight.......I'm no puppet, and I don't know who Rick Fenno is. I should have made it clear that I would not speak on behalf of that company when asked questions of that nature whether I knew the answer or not. I have received no threats or ill-will from Mr. Goodson. Simply stating that I didn't know up front was the right thing to do, and I didn't. That fault is mine and no one else's. I should have just said I was clueless. Seems as though you all think I am anyway, so.....mission accomplished.

The thing that I find comical is that you guys have direct access to Steve Goodson and can ask him any question you choose. But instead, you would rather sit here and bash the guy for whatever reason. I do not know the man to any extent. I met him for the first time at the TBA convention, and played the horns myself. I then came here and gave you my honest opinion of what I thought of them.

I have to tell you, this really reminds me of the way I hear some people trash Dave Guardala when they don't know the real story behind why he is not in the business anymore. If you want to sit here and bash Steve Goodson for whatever reason, you are obviously entitled to do so. I just simply don't see the value in it. Simple as that.

I will be the first person to sit here in front of all of you with egg on my face for my poor choice of words. I apologize as the outcome was clearly not my intent.

Best of luck to you all.

Regards,

Minion

[Grumps]

The thing that I find comical is that you guys have direct access to Steve Goodson and can ask him any question you choose.
Yes, this is quite comical. More so if you go to alt.music.saxophone and google up how many times the designer has personally evaded answering this very simple question. Lots of other neat stuff there too. Check it out and see for yourself why the hornsmasher is truly his own worst basher.

[Mark5047]

The thing that I find comical is that you guys have direct access to Steve Goodson and can ask him any question you choose.

Well I think there lies the problem (no pun intended) ... Most folks COULD ask Steve but honestly, based on his track record here, he would not have any credibility. Also anybody else who has little or no history here is going to be viewed with suspicion when they come on with lots of praise and very little objectivity in a review. I am not trying to be argumentive with you here, just telling you like I see it.
Outside of the few times you have tried to do a review on these instruments on SOTW, I have seen nothing from a neutral party regarding these instruments. (Lets NOT count the SG website, hardly considered objective, no?) Take something like the P. Mauriat instruments for example. I read several reviews on these plus some folks who's opinion I value have come out and backed them. Honestly, that is why I play an LA Sax now - I read reviews a while ago and when I had a chance to score an alto and a tenor at a deep discount, I jumped on it and have not regretted it.