How ambitious?

[wainsworth]

I just wonder how ambitious a late starter should be. I took up clarinet at age about sixty and I am seventy now. I love to play music but hate it when the music chosen is beyond my ability. If I had a choice I would play in a band of late starters who would like to play crowd-pleasing music at about the high school band level. I have just taken up alto saxaphone and hope to learn to play it by ear once I know the scales and have a decent embouchure. But back to my original question. If you are a late starter do you think you should be as ambitious as a young player might be or should you just play for fun and not take it too seriously?

[stitch]

If you are a late starter do you think you should be as ambitious as a young player might be or should you just play for fun and not take it too seriously?

You should be as ambitious as you want to be, and if it's not fun you shouldn't do it! Age doesn't matter unless you're a cheese, as a wise man once said (the late Douglas Adams I think).

[bass]

As a 51-year-old late bloomer, your question interests me much.

I love modern jazz and am frustrated that I'm nowhere near being able to play and improvise at even a high school level. I'll probably never be able to jam very well no matter how long I play. But I have to keep reminding myself to take it one day at a time and learn to appreciate the small progress I've made after two years.

My (I hope) realistic goal is to play ballads and standards well enough to join a small combo group strictly for fun. I hope to find other older student players who want to gather and play some beautiful tunes. I don't think I'm that interested in joining a community band--which would entail learning to read music fairly well. But I do need to improve my musicianship (time, intonation, dynamics) to sound half-way decent in a small ensemble.

Anyway, music for me is an obsession but I need to realize it's only a hobby and that it's meant for fun and the mental and physical health benefits I think you get by playing as an older adult.

Best wishes to all us late starters.

Bass

[Mike W]

Hi Wainsworth. I am glad to hear you are starting sax at seventy! I am 51 and intend on playing sax (as a hobby for me now) as long as I last. I think it is an individual choice how far we want to take our music. There is something to be said for simply not giving up on what we want to do. If we look at Sen. Strom Thurmond (not his politics--just his ability to do more at an advanced age than most young folks), I would say seventy can still be young for an ambitious person. I read that Santy Runyon was still playing sax up until he passed in his 90s. I also read somewhere that Gato Barbari (he is good--wow!) is in his seventies and is still recording. I don't think it is impossible to become a sax recording star in one's 70s or 80s if someone wants it bad enough. Heck, it isn't easy at 25 either. If you want to do it, go for it!


Hi Bass--try playing along with anything and everything you like (including some play-along CDs). Put the sheet music away (but practice reading during some other part of your practice time--if you choose) and just blow. In a year or so, you will be amazed at your improv ability. Two years on the horn is just about the right time to start. Just keep it up in the beginning no matter how bad you think you sound--you will get better! Listen to the music you are playing along with and focus on trying to play something different each time that fits. It is a bit amazing to listen to some recordings of yourself playing different improv themes to the same background. After a while, more often than not, you will say "Was that me?"--in a good way. Many melodies can fit the same background. Do give yourself permission to sound bad and make mistakes. Try odd and unusual stuff and sometimes you will stumble onto phrases that sound great. I did this when I was a kid (no play along CDs then though) and by 18 I was doing studio recording sessions and playing in a band to help pay my way through college. It also helps to listen to the kind of music you want to be able to play--of course.

It sure is nice to know not just the youngsters are playing sax these days!

[steve]

I'm almost 60...and got back into music after a 30+ year layoff...I've been "back" now for about 4 years and play tenor and a couple of other horns in a blues band, professionally ( part time...since I still have my day job). The other players in this band are my kids' age. My perspective: Age means nothing...Sam Butera is still blowing the doors off and I would guess that boy has to be in his seventies. I also play part time, for fun and beers , with a loose outfit of older guys at the American Legion club once a month....to them, anything after "Margie" is way too modern...its a lot of fun...anyway, the clarinet player used to work with Pete Fountain...he's about 80..and he can blow me away when we trade fours. Just Have fun...if you aspire to be a pro, are willing to work at it, and have a bit of talent you'll do just fine. Otherwise hook up with some like minded players and play Margie. Good Luck

[alsdiego]

Steve,

You are a personal inspiration! I am 59, returning to sax (alto) after a 40 year layoff. Took me almost a year to get back in shape, but like sex and riding a bicycle, you never forget how, you just get rusty :wink:

My teacher when I was a teenager was Charlie Leeds, a teaching legend in northern New Jersey (and former lead alto in Louis Prima's big band prior to the advent of Sam Butera, who Charlie detested!). I played in jazz bands, combos, and "Fifties" style rock bands (guys with DA hairdoos and neon red tuxedo jackets), then went on with non-musical life. About a year ago, after a very painful divorce and five kids later, I sat down and reflected on what was personally important to me, and at the top of the list was music. I've been practicing like a demon ever since, and its starting to come back, and even get better. I'm heading for Louisville this Saturday for the Aebersold jazz camp, with all of the excitement of a teenager, even tho most of the players there will probably want to call me "Pops".

We're not getting older, we're getting better!

Best,

Al

[bass]

Mike, thanks for the inspirational advice. I've tried to allot part of my practicing to noodling to discover new riffs and phrases. I think it's helped me loosen up and improve my tone. I have used the Aebersold CDs and recently bought a used Boss JamStation which is essentially a stand alone Band-in-a-Box--but with more realistic sounds. You can program a song's chords and hear them played by a variety of drums, bass, keyboards. I think this is going to help me prepare to play with others.

It's great to hear stories about long-time players. I recently met a 73-year-old man whose been playing sax for 60 years(!). He's played in many ensembles, large and small. He told me he doesn't use written music and plays everything by ear. (That's tough on some of his side men.) He says I shouldn't depend so much on notation if I want to loosen up my playing and learn to swing. Sounds like I should work on memorizing tunes.

Bass

[wainsworth]

Great response to my question. I still want to play my clarinet in the concert band and at least be a reasonalby reliable third clarinet. My aim with the sax is a little different. I didn't intent to take up saxaphone but an old friend [ninety] gave me his old 1926 Conn alto sax that he bought originally for $25 Canadian. It cost me $517 Cdn. to get it renovated!!! Anyway I intend to try a different approach with the sax and learn to play by ear. Nursery rhymes here I come.

[saxqueen]

:D You all sound great and give me hope. When I turned 40 I wanted to play an instrument and choose alto sax. I have a great teacher and have been having lesson for almost 3 years now. Am just at the stage where I am trying to improvise but struggling to find my own licks. I have recently bought a soprano and am enjoying that also. I don't want to play pro but just want to have fun with other musicians. Here's to all of us late bloomers.

[frankbiff]

There is a sax player in my communitiy band who started playing when he was 76. I think he's 88 now, and still playing in the band.

[jazzbluescat]

Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!

[larry]

Screw age. You only go around once (that I know of - your experiences may be different).

I played a bunch in school, but took 15 years off to be an engineer and father and then one day woke up and thought that there's got to be more to life than work and child care and started taking lessons again. Found a really good teacher not too far from home who takes me during lunch.

I found a band via the now defunct musician.com website and we're playing 1-2 a month and I feel really, really lucky!

Anyways, rambling lead-in to get to the message: Go for it! Figure out what you want to do and then do it passionately! (Until you figure out what you want to do next!)

Check out our budding band at http://sambossa.home.comcast.net

[SteveK]

Steve,

You are a personal inspiration! I am 59, returning to sax (alto) after a 40 year layoff. Took me almost a year to get back in shape, but like sex and riding a bicycle, you never forget how, you just get rusty :wink:

My teacher when I was a teenager was Charlie Leeds, a teaching legend in northern New Jersey (and former lead alto in Louis Prima's big band prior to the advent of Sam Butera, who Charlie detested!). I played in jazz bands, combos, and "Fifties" style rock bands (guys with DA hairdoos and neon red tuxedo jackets), then went on with non-musical life. About a year ago, after a very painful divorce and five kids later, I sat down and reflected on what was personally important to me, and at the top of the list was music. I've been practicing like a demon ever since, and its starting to come back, and even get better. I'm heading for Louisville this Saturday for the Aebersold jazz camp, with all of the excitement of a teenager, even tho most of the players there will probably want to call me "Pops".

We're not getting older, we're getting better!

Best,

Al

[SteveK]

Hello alsdiego, I read, with interest, regarding your teacher, Charlie Leeds. He was mine too, and about the same time as well..When I was young, he came to my house for lessons..Later on, he set up his home studio, in Cranford, N.J. Like yourself, I gave up playing for all the usual reasons, and re-started about 10 years ago...Having more fun then ever!
I was in a band in the early 60's called the "Embraceables"...Currentlly, I am in an R& B band, with a 6-piece horn section...We are called "I'll take the Blonde"... At his stage of our life (I am the same age as you), no one in the group is taking themselves too serious, and we are having fun again, but this time around, on our own terms...Playing the Sax again (tenor), has brought a whole new joy to me, and Charlie's lessons still ring in my ears! Thanks for your post...It's good to see us old-rust buckets can shine again ! :D

[paulwl]

It's great to hear stories about long-time players. I recently met a 73-year-old man whose been playing sax for 60 years(!). He's played in many ensembles, large and small. He told me he doesn't use written music and plays everything by ear. (That's tough on some of his side men.) He says I shouldn't depend so much on notation if I want to loosen up my playing and learn to swing. Sounds like I should work on memorizing tunes.
Definitely. But do read, and keep reading better. If your mentor had started out today to play everything by ear, he'd have many fewer ensemble opportunities open to him.

Back in the 40s and 50s every little joint had a band. Today it's all about competing to get heard at all, let alone for good pay. Everybody has to at least try to do what the full-timers can do.

[ajcurtis]

wainsworth
I started playing the alto 4 years ago at the age of 50 and I am slowly getting to grips with the beast.
Musical tastes pre the alto; Chicago blues, and the honking sax's on 50's r&b records. so the wife bless her bought me a alto as a christmas present.
My tutor in England John Knockles re-educated me to the sounds of Desmond, Getz, Mulligan and Pepper. Now I am saving up for a bari as I want to play in a dance band before I'm 60.

wainworth just do want you feel is right, if you enjoy it, it must be right, lifes to short :wink:
ajc

[mark_m]

And at the same time life is plenty long to start playing whenever you happen to get to it, the sooner the better. At 50, I just picked up alto a couple years ago, inspired by one of my kids.

He started piano at about age 8, and by 10 was playing quite impressively. It occurred to me that if I could pick up an instrument in, say, 5 years - compared to his 2 - that would be no time at all to me, time flying by as it does.

So here I am. I play alto tenor and bari in various contexts, in some cases with kids who were born after I was married, having a ball with it. Currently I am capable of keeping out of trouble in the jams I frequent, and my goal is to be able to stir up some trouble in a couple more years. Just started taking lessons this weekend, which I hope will accelerate me toward that goal.

I guess I feel more ambitious than I ever was as an eighteen-year-old!

[alsdiego]

SteveK,

That's absolutely amazing!! We might have even run into each other back in the old days... I played tenor in a rock band called the "Sedallions" (Westfield - Plainfield area), and still think about Charlie very often. I took lessons from Charlie from 1957 through 1961, did the NJ All State Band thing, and so on. Charlie taught me many, many things, not the least of which was how hard you have to work to be successful at anything (Charlie thought that 3 hours of practice a day was about right, especially when you were preparing for something like all state band. I'd think that I had something nailed down solid, like the chromatic scale from bottom to top and back down, and Charlie would just quietly point out where it could be improved; he really taught me something about how high you need to set your sights)

There's a very sad but touching part of the Charlie Leeds story for me. My father died of cancer in early 1958, and Charlie literally became like a surrogate father to me, counseling me on things like dope, booze, etc., and because of his background, you knew he'd been around and seen it all, so I really, really listened to him.

It's a classic case of the HUGE impact a teacher can have on the lives of their students... I'll never forget the time I was in the Navy during the Viet Nam thing, flying off a carrier, and while on leave in NJ I went to visit Charlie at his home in Cranford. He was absolutely, positively sure that I would be killed.... incredibly touching. BTW, did you know that his wonderful wife played tenor in Ina Rae Hutton's All-Girl Band just after WWII? Incredible.

Would love to chat with you further by e-mail... my e-mail address is waldchen@earthlink.net

Best,

Al

[alsdiego]

mark_m:

Cunning and experience will beat youthful exuberance every time :lol:

Seriously tho, I find that at 60, I have the drive and discipline to advance far faster than when I was younger. I used to avoid music theory like the plague, now I can't seem to buy enough books, some of which even make sense to me :lol:

For you older folks who want a structured approach to learning music theory and improvisation, I've been slowly working my way through "Intermediate Jazz Improvisation" by George Bouchard... it's available on the Aebersold site. HIGHLY recommmended to keep you moving forward, although I think it would be too difficult until you know your major, minor and dominant scales/arpeggios awfully well.... the book moves right along, and quickly gets into things like chord substitutions and so on. I'd guess it's roughly the equivalent of a freshman college jazz course.

[wainsworth]

Hello Everybody;
just to follow up on my original message and thanks to all who replied. I am taking part in a course given by our local university here in Canada and am now in the intermediate level and enjoying it quite a bit. Having played clarinet and reading music reasonably well gave me a big advantage over the others when I started. My fellow saxists are mostly at least sixty plus. One gentleman played sax in England during WW2 with the Canadian Armed Forces and never played again after the war [it intrigues me that I was a snotty nosed evacuee kid at the time]. He has now taken it up again and his tone is great and he is re-learning fast. I want to keep to my clarinet for concert band but for the saxophone I hope to learn to play by ear and get some good use out of Band In a Box. I still think that it is difficult if not impossible to catch up to those who have been playing continuously since their youth although some of the people in the concert band that I play with, because they read so well, do not practice from one rehearsal to the next, which does bridge the gap not a little.

[Jon B. Bop]

I still think that it is difficult if not impossible to catch up to those who have been playing continuously since their youth .

I find this to be very frustrating. The thought that I have no real chance to play as well as many who have been playing their whole life is at times de-motivating. I constantly struggle to focus simply on improving my own playing, and not get cought up in "what might have been".

Just when I'm back on track, I hear some other great player, and it starts all over.

Oh well, I guess 'Ya gotta suffer if you wanna sing the blues'! :roll:

[bassclarinet]

With RA and age 79 you get as ambitious as your body will let you. At least I am "still above the grass" and every day brings something new. Will I ever master this C-Melody? God alone knows. Some good days, some bad days. Maybe I should write CW songs? Course, I ain't got a dog and my wife is still loving. :shock:

[Dr G]

Oh well, I guess 'Ya gotta suffer if you wanna sing the blues'! :roll:

- David Bromberg :wink: