Most free-blowing tenor

[tomsch]

I love free-blowing tenors like my Couf. All other alternatives seem to have a level of resistance that I just don't care for. What are some of the most free blowing tenors out there, both new and vintage?

[sweetsax]

I think you probably have the two best examples in your signature - SX90 for modern, and Couf for vintage. I suppose you could throw a Conn in there too, but I don't have much experience with those, so it's just pure speculation.

[J.Max]

Keilwerth Sx90R, by far. It has a nice big bore, and is extremely free blowing.

[Dr G]

Borgani silver pearl Jubilee - maybe other finishes too but that is the one that I owned/played/enjoyed.

[Swingtone]

Eastlake King Super 20

[JL]

Buescher Aristocrat 156 "Big B" is extremely free-blowing, much more so than the earlier Aristocrats. I played a friend's Silversonic (Super 20) that was equally free-blowing.

[Grumpie]

I second JL on the Crat.That was one of the things that did it for me. If you want an even more free feel I can only think of going to the doctor's house and ask for such a lung-blowing-test. :D

[Mike Ruhl]

Pretty much any vintage King Super 20. Mine is a late-1950s model, and it's much more free-blowing than the couple of SX90Rs I've had opportunity to try. More free-blowing than any tenor I've ever played, for that matter.

[brassnaked]

Borgani Jubilee...mine is the unlacquered Vintage model. REALLY fre-blowing!

[catfishman123@hotmail.com]

guardala

[Ruediger Kramer]

guardala

as you say...

[Saxland]

Buffet Dynaction.

[bfoster64]

I recently played the following tenors:

Conn 10m (early 40s)
Selmer MkVI (110xxx)
B&S Allora (brand new)
SML Rev D (10xxx)
Keilwerth SX90R (brand new)
Buescher Aristocrat (1951)
King Super 20 (early 40s)
Ref 54 (brand new)
Yamaha Custom 875 (brand new)
Jupiter Artist (brand new)

The most free-blowing (i.e., low resistance) horns were the 10m, Buescher Aristo, and SX90R. The Super20 and Allora were next. The 10m really stood out as the most free-blowing throughout the entire range of the horn. I think it was a good one.

[J.Max]

I once played a Mark VI that was so free-blowing that it made my SX-90R feel stuffy. I think with vintage horns, there's a lot of variability...

[58tenor]

I had a horn SO FREE blowing that it sucked me through the mouthpiece the first time I played low Bb,(broke a good reed) and completley through the horn. I popped outta the bell and shot into the audience, carreening wildly over tables full of drinks and toppling a lady's wig before coming to rest halfway through the women's room door. Man,that horn scared the hell outta me and I never palyed it again.

[SactoPete]

Tom,

If I remember correctly, you are in Sacramento... I have a bunch of horns in my stable at the moment that you are welcome to have a honk on for experience's sake:

- Conn 30m
- Pan American (10m stencil)
- King Cleveland
- Buescher TH&C 400 (although currently in the shop at Tim's music for some dent work, but if you drop by there often I can give the OK for you to give it a whirl, it plays fine).
- Mk VI (just bought via Scott Mandeville at Tim's)

Drop me a PM if you are interested and we can arrange something.

BTW, Scott also currently has on consignment at the moment a Chu (if I remember correctly), a Yani 990, and a Yamaha 82Z for you to compare.

Pete

[GAS_Wyo]

I had a horn SO FREE blowing that it sucked me through the mouthpiece the first time I played low Bb,(broke a good reed) and completley through the horn. I popped outta the bell and shot into the audience, carreening wildly over tables full of drinks and toppling a lady's wig before coming to rest halfway through the women's room door. Man,that horn scared the hell outta me and I never palyed it again.
Literally ROFL! Someone top this one! :D

58- Please tell us what horn brand and model so your fellow SOTW brothers and sisters can avoid the same embarrassing debacle you went through!

PS...in Wyoming we joke that the wind blows so hard in this state because Nebraska sucks! ;)

[GAS_Wyo]

Tomsch -
I notice you have the P. Mauriat - PMST66 with the Super Jazz VI neck. Did that neck make this horn less resistant? I'm considering one for my new PMXT66R.

(I'm still laughing at your post!)

[rispoli]

Tomsch -
I notice you have the P. Mauriat - PMST66 with the Super Jazz VI neck. Did that neck make this horn less resistant?


That is my hope too. It would get rid of my main issue with my 66R...
I have a Mark VI, a B&S 2001 and a P.Mauriat 66R (listed in order of preference): by far the latter is the most resistant.

[Jolle]

let's add a stupid non-native speaking question here : what exactly is considered "free-blowing" or "low resistance"? I tend to believe that my mouthpiece and reed is causing the resistance and a horn has only little to do about it. Where am I wrong?

I'll add another stupid question : what's so fun about free blowing horns? I read quite some complaints about unstable tones due to a lack of resistance (the famous middle C and C# problem)

greetzz

[tomsch]

The Super Jazz VI neck does reduce the resistance to some degree but overall the horn still has more back pressure than I like. Nice tone through.
I prefer the feel of a low resistance horn because I'm able to have more flexibility in tone as well as inflections. The resistance of the horns I currently own (or have owned) line up like this:

H.Couf Superba I
Cannonball BB
Dolnet
Yamaha 82Z UL
Keilwerth SX90R NS
B&S 2001
163xxx Mk VI
P. Maruiat
Selmer Series II

My Couf was more free blowing after the Gloger silver neck. When trying the neck on the Keilwerth the resistance goes does slightly but it's still there. I'm taking it to my tech to have the key height raised to see if that helps. I've played a Martin that was owned by Keith (kride) that had a pretty low resistance.

[bfoster64]

As I use the terms, free blowing horns are easier to play softly, and therefore, perhaps, with greater expression and flexibility.

The player has to overcome the resistance to initiate a tone, so a resistant horn will have more POP when you start a phrase, whereas a free blowing horn will allow you to sort of ooooze into it.

Free blowing is probably beneficial to most people because one can easily play in such a way to ensure the POP is still there on a free blowing horn, but there's little you can do to compensate for high resistance if you want to play softly.

[SactoPete]

As I use the terms, free blowing horns are easier to play softly, and therefore, perhaps, with greater expression and flexibility.

The player has to overcome the resistance to initiate a tone, so a resistant horn will have more POP when you start a phrase, whereas a free blowing horn will allow you to sort of ooooze into it.

Free blowing is probably beneficial to most people because one can easily play in such a way to ensure the POP is still there on a free blowing horn, but there's little you can do to compensate for high resistance if you want to play softly.

Hmmmm.... that's not the way I thought of it at all. I was thinking in terms of physical backpressure. This can come from the mouthpiece, reed, horn, or horn setup for that matter (as key heights above were mentioned). With the same mouthpiece and reed, say, I can put more air through my Conn than my Selmer. Maybe it has a larger diameter neck, or whatever, I don't know, but you can feel the difference.

Free-blowing horns can be played softly; it just requires a little more diaphragm control to do so as there's not as much to "push" against. Some people like one or the other... I kinda like it in the middle, but find it more comfortable on a free-blowing horn than a very resistant horn. To Tom's point, I've found the one SA80 II that I played was very resistant, felt like I was blowing through a straw. Not a bad thing to me, just odd and noticeable. The sound was full and rich, so it didn't matter....

Pete

[tomsch]

The P. Mariat is also relatively resistant but it can take the air and sound full and rich. Not sure how much the sound is effected by resistance but it's more of what you get used to blowing against.

[JL]

I like 58tenor's description of a free-blowing horn. Thanks, man, that made my day! I'm still laughing.

I do agree that it really comes down to what you get used to. Regarding reeds & mpc, they can definitely have an effect, but with the same reed/mpc there are clear differences among some horns in terms of resistance.

What's so good about free-blowing? Maybe nothing; it all depends on what you like. I have 3 tenors and I'd describe the MK VI and series 1 Aristocrat as somewhat resistant, in a good way. What I mean by a good way is that the resistance is not stuffy, but allows a strong attack with lots of "punch." I like that. But there is definitely something to push against. I wouldn't say the resistance makes it difficult to play softly, but some of the tone is lost when playing softly.

On the other hand, my 156 Aristocrat (same as "Big B" model) is noticeably more free-blowing than the other two horns. I also like the free-blowing characteristics:

To me, "free-blowing" mainly means an ability to get the sound out with very little effort. And the tone is not lost when playing softly. As bfoster64 said, there is more flexibility with the free-blowing horn, so you have an easier time achieving a wide dynamic range, from soft and sweet to loud and screaming, and everything in between. All of this can be done with the more resistant horns, but it takes a bit more effort. On the other hand, the free-blowing horn takes more effort to play with a punchy attack and focused sound. So it's a bit of a trade off.

Of the horns I've played, the free-blowing ones include a Conn 10 M, King Super 20, and the Big B Aristocrat. The MK VI and pre-war Aristocrat are somewhat resistant and focussed, but NOT stuffy.

[bfoster64]

Nice comments. I think "physical backpressure" is a good synonym for resistance. This backpressure arises from the horn, mpc, and reed, but if you use the same mpc and reed on different horns you can see the extent to which the horn contributes to the resistance. I also agree that free versus resistant is largely a matter of personal preference and each has its advantages. A resistant horn can be played softly, but it takes more effort to do so. A freeblowing horn can be played with punch, but it takes more control of the airstream. It's good to try to define these vague terms we throw about, even though I think we are all using them in roughly the same way.

[58tenor]

What does pizza taste like? How does the color orange look? Are big things better than small ones? I decided to quantify this horn "resistance" quagmire. I measured the resistance of my saxophone with an ohmeter. It has about .4 ohms from neck to bell. As soon as I can get the horn down to the local dynomometer shop, I will get the back pressure checked.

[JL]

Hey 58, where can I get one of those ohmeters? I gotta measure the ohms on my Buescher!

But, seriously (I guess--), for those who haven't played a bunch of different tenors or are having difficulty with this whole concept, in a general sense the larger horns are more free-blowing than the smaller horns. So a tenor is more free-blowing than an alto and an alto is more free-blowing than a soprano. A soprano probably wouldn't even register on 58's ohmeter!!

[Jolle]

What does pizza taste like? How does the color orange look? Are big things better than small ones? I decided to quantify this horn "resistance" quagmire. I measured the resistance of my saxophone with an ohmeter. It has about .4 ohms from neck to bell. As soon as I can get the horn down to the local dynomometer shop, I will get the back pressure checked.
Man man, you got me there :sign5:

[rleitch]

58Tenor,

Only halfway through the door? You should get a reliable tech to open the action of that thing. It'll clear up that stuffy bottom end.

Rory

[Kritavi]

many VI's VII's s20's 10m's big b's sda's, coufs, committee etc later my most free blowing and favorite tenor is my SML Coleman Hawkins Special with an Oleg silverplated neck. With the original neck it is still very nice but not nearly as much.

[Jazzed]

My concept (with limited experience) is to offset a horn's tone, resistance, etc... with a mouthpiece that gives me what is missing. Therefore (for me) my mouthpieces do not work for more than one horn usually. Reed choice is also a factor. Your mileage may vary.

[Tryptykon]

My concept (with limited experience) is to offset a horn's tone, resistance, etc... with a mouthpiece that gives me what is missing. Therefore (for me) my mouthpieces do not work for more than one horn usually. Reed choice is also a factor. Your mileage may vary.

This post makes the most sense, to me .. YMMV :)

[Datsaxguy]

Just for the record, your mouthpiece and reed set up has a lot to do with the "stuffiness" or resistance on a horn. Some horns are not free blowing with a particular set up. That same set up on another horn can make it really sing. The most free blowing horn I've ever played was a Keilwerth SX-90r Tenor. I bought it on the spot.

Datsaxguy

[Mike Ruhl]

Resistance can be designed into both the mouthpiece and the horn. It's not always easy to tell the difference, as this thread confirms.

[Martin]

If you think a Keilwerth tenor is free blowing, try a keilwerth STRAIGHT tenor.

[EZ]

Most free-blowing tenors I've played are 10Ms. Too free-blowing for me actually - the Keilwerths being just right for the amount of control I have/need.

[rabbit]

58tenor,

I am VERY interested in buying that horn.

pgaylord,

Characteristically generous offer on your part to tomsch.
These many small things make this forum so cool.

rabbit

[58tenor]

At the time of the incident, I was standing right over my horn stand. Upon my exit the sax simply and amazingly fell straight down and landed unharmed on it's stand.

rabbit, your offer is appreciated. However, I cannot in good conscience allow this horn to be played by anyone at any price. It is just too risky. I will fill the sax with concrete and relegate it to a yard ornament...

[Tryptykon]

I do miss my Super 20, though; it had something that I haven't been able
to find since .. zero resistance, and very vibrant .. wow !8-)

[Saxplayer1]

The earlier comment was made regarding mouthpiece, reed & lig set-up. This is absolutely critical. But more critical is the horns set-up. Does it have pad leaks, etc? If a horn is wonderfully set-up, it should be effortless to play. Yes some horns may be a bit more freeblowing than others, but not by much if the horn is properly regulated by a competent tech.

[Alexk]

Sorry, can't help this, but I once played what I feel was the most UN-free-blowing tenor. How did I tell? It had a coin slot, plus on the neck a sign that read, "For 15 minutes use, insert 50 cents". :D

[mountainman]

Just for the record, your mouthpiece and reed set up has a lot to do with the "stuffiness" or resistance on a horn. Some horns are not free blowing with a particular set up. That same set up on another horn can make it really sing. The most free blowing horn I've ever played was a Keilwerth SX-90r Tenor. I bought it on the spot.

Datsaxguy

Ditto: The Shadow blows even more freely the the regular JK. Add a free blowing mouthpiece, freeblowing reed and freeblowing lig and you can just breathe in the horn.

[oldbluesman]

That's easy. My Ebay $250 Selman with my vintage Brilhart white Tonaline.

[Pannonia]

I can only repeat earlier claims.
Vintage: Conn 10M
Modern: Keilwerth SX90 and its derivatives

Actually, I have not played anything that is easier to blow than a well set up 10M. I have a bare brass one that speaks on a whisper.
If there was a chance to bring a vintage tenor sax back to be made again I would vote on the 10M. (OK, maybe this time it could have the Yanagisawa's keywork.)

[usda]

"A freeblowing horn can be played with punch, but it takes more control of the airstream. It's good to try to define these vague terms we throw about, even though I think we are all using them in roughly the same way."

Good line...what's we talking about?

Listening to Paul Desmond...I love the tone and think of the work of his diaphram. I believe he is blowing into lots of resistence.

Listening to Stan Getz and Josh Redman, the kid...I think I hear blowing with minum resistence.

Does anyone else get that impression? Or something else?

[Blackwolf42]

Personally, I much prefer the feeling of "pushing" against something. This is why I like Selmer horns so much. It is much easier to overblow a free-blowing sax than one with resistance. For example, I have a late Buescher Aristocrat (about 1957) and a Reference 54. I love the the extra resistance of the Selmer, while the 'Crat seems to have very little, if any, resistance.

[JL]

Personally, I much prefer the feeling of "pushing" against something. This is why I like Selmer horns so much. It is much easier to overblow a free-blowing sax than one with resistance. For example, I have a late Buescher Aristocrat (about 1957) and a Reference 54. I love the the extra resistance of the Selmer, while the 'Crat seems to have very little, if any, resistance.

If you want an Aristocrat with some resistance, check out the earlier, "series 1" model, with art deco engraving. It has the big sound and screaming upper register of the later Big B/156 model, but with something to push against.

[EZ]

Listening to Stan Getz and Josh Redman, the kid...I think I hear blowing with minum resistence.

Does anyone else get that impression? Or something else?

I'm with you on Joshua Redman. With Stan Getz, though, when I hear some of his work and the chirps that emanated on occasion, it sounds rather resistant to me. Pure conjecture.

[mattsax]

In the interview Stan did with Mel Martin (available on Mel Martin's website), he makes clear that his embouchure experience was not an easy one, not in any sense was it "easy-blowing." He made it seem that way.
Given his set up, you might wonder why. A Florida Link 5* with 3 Van Doren reeds on a 1960s Mark VI doesn't sound terribly resistant (a teacher mine actually had precisely that set up, and let me try it--it was freeblowing).
But Stan also had some embouchure problems due to his cocaine habit, reputedly.

[Pinnman]

.... and, in contrast to Blackwolf42, I prefer my 1949 Aristocrat to the SeLmer SA80 II I used to have. As ever, horses for courses, but the point is that I agree entirely with his comparison (as close as my experience allows).

[58tenor]

One of the most interesting writings related to this subject was an interview with Tubby Hayes and Sal Nistico. Nistico,a 10M player had tried a Selmer and could not get used to it. He thought that the 10M seemed bigger sounding to the player but out front he thought the Selmer had more.

The point is that what we perceive while playing can be quite different to the listener. I played a Selmer for 19 years and then tried a 10M. I got nowhere with it. Now have a B&S which was an easy transition and is just a great sax. It is certainly capable of more than anything I can do.

[tomsch]

Since I started this thread I wanted to follow up with and update to my Keilwerth SX90R NS. I just picked it up from my local tech yesterday and I have to say that it is now MUCH better. Three things contributed to the transformation. The first area that helped, even before I took it to my tech, was to clean out the neck. There was link and a general collection of crud that had built up over the 4 years. At the tech I had him fix the leaks and also raise the key heights. The previous owner lowered them and was after a different sound than I. Overall the horn is much closer to my Couf in terms of resistance. When I picked it up everyone that worked in the shop commented about what a rippin' horn it is.

[Mactenor]

Conn 10M and King Super 20. Monster sound......I realize that not everyone likes a monster sound, but I love power tenor all the way. When I feel like producing a warm, mellow sound, I like a Martin.
Best regards Mactenor