Starting to feel limited on my Keilwerth SX90R

[BlueNote]

I am by no means asking for that "perfect sax", as it does not really exist. I am simply asking for some opinions, reviews, insights, information, etc.

A little over a year ago now I purchased a Keilwerth SX90R for a bargain price (off of someone here on SOTW), which was very fortunate and extremely lucky. I fell in love with it from the beginning, mainly because I really dug the tone I got out of it and the big sound. That is what I look for first in a saxophone -- it's tone.

Months went by playing it and I started to get more familiar with the instrument. But up until recently, I started feeling somewhat limited playing it... meaning that I sometimes felt/feel that because the horn was so big and bulky, I was unable to play fast clean lines, have things come out the way I wish they would come out, etc. Basically, aside from the great tone, I am starting to feel somewhat uncomfortable with it. Add to the fact that I am constantly frustrated with keeping it in tune when I am practicing, and definately when I am playing with others where the intonation issues are sometimes very obvious. I do use a tuner often, but it doesn't seem to do a very good job at keeping the horn in tune from a day-to-day basis.

Does anyone have any recommendations for tenors that 1) aren't over $2000-2500, 2) have generally good/great intonation, 3) aren't big and bulky, and 4) have a generally big/warm sound on it?

Thanks!

[Dog Pants]

Blue Note,
Good post! I think you've highlighted a couple of problems here. Testing a horn and living with a horn, are often two different things. :) If you like the tone of the SX90R and it's just the ergos that are hanging you up, either you or your tech might consider some mods to the risers etc? I love the sound of my Chu Alto, but it wasn't until I finally decided to modify the horn to fit my large hands,that I started to feel comfortable on it.
With the intonation, I know you've been around long enough to try different mpc, reed combos. Did it make any difference?
If you do decide to go for a new tenor, are you looking for something modern or vintage?
The YTS62 I used to have, had great ergos and great intonation. Mine was an eighties model, so I'm not familiar with the later 62's. Of the "vintage crop", (won a lot of $ on a horse with that name once
), Bueschers are often praised for having great intonation. I have an Aristocrat alto, rather than the tenor, and the intonation and sound are great. Keywork leaves the Conn alto for dead. I just happen to love the big sound of the Conn.
Let us know how it all unfolds, and good luck.

[BlueNote]

I have tried different mouthpiece and reed combinations, but the intonation is always a killer. I used to play on a Berg 110/0 M, but the intonation was so horrible on it that I just had to switch to something else -- which is now a Morgan 8M. I get the perfect sound on that combination (Morgan), but some reeds in particular out of a batch of say 10 in a box cause the horn to go sour for some reason. That happened recently, and even though I got a very nice sound on that reed, the intonation became too big of a problem... even making it so that pitches an octave up can easily go a half step out of tune (which I discovered doing octave long tone exercises not that long ago).

I probably should look into a tech to getting checked out. It's not something I've done before, so it might be a good idea, because I don't know what I could be missing. And I would hate to play on a horn that doesn't live up to its potential. What kind of work would a tech do to modify the horn so that it is ergonomically easier to play on? Does it cost a fortune to get done?

My teacher knows Emilio over in NY, who I guess is one of the top technicians in the world, so it might be a good idea to talk to him (talking out loud here).

If I was going to buy a new tenor, I wouldn't be buying one any time soon, mainly for financial reasons. I still haven't paid off the Keilwerth, which I am paying half for (parents paying for other half), so I owe it to them and to myself to not bring up another "I want a new sax" thing while I am still paying off the one I have.

Thanks for the advice, Dog Pants. Much appreciated!

[Dog Pants]

I'm not sure exactly how far a tech could, would, go in terms of modifying keywork. Having seen the recent "Australian Story" where a Sydney tech, Tom Sparkes, modified a horn for a young player who had fingers chopped off with an axe, I'd say that anything is possible. Check out the thread on this topic. Scary and inspirational at the same time.
Of course, cost would have to be weighed against reward if you wanted to get into heavy modifications. The mods I did were simple build ups of the side and palm key risers, and an extension to the G# key. It would still be worth discussing your issues with a tech. A good tech can be more familiar with the individual layouts and quirks of different horns. You might find that if you discuss what you like, and what you don't about the SX90R and its keywork, mechanicals, sound etc, then your tech will be able to suggest a range of horns with keywork, layout, etc, that might suit your sized hands better, for example.
I think it's good that you asked the question. The usual response, is that you get used to the horn, and in my own experience, I've found this to be true up to a point. It would be really interesting to hear one of the Techs around here tell us what can be done to personalise a horn in this manner? At what point does the cost outweigh the benefit? etc...
DP

[dirty]

My little brother's friend has a Keilwerth sx-90R that is in terrible condition. It's full of leaks and crappy pads that haven't been properly taken care of. I'm not sure if it came this way or if this is the result of negligence (or some of each!), but it blew with tons of resistance and had some pretty screwy intonation. Maybe you should get your horn checked out for leaks and such.

If you are looking for another tenor though, I play a yamaha yts-62II and I love it. Intonation is perfect, keywork is perfect, tone is gorgeous and it looks beautiful. Anyone who tells you that Yamaha horns "don't have character" or whatever they say obviously hasn't played mine. I have friends who play on Yanigisawa altos and baris, but I've never played a tenor. Assuming the tenors are just as good, I would say check them out too.

[gary]

Well, first off Jacob, I'm shocked. SHOCKED! that you would ask this before having a competent tech check your horn out. Get your lazy a** on over to one
. . NOW! :twisted: (BTW, I thought Emilio was in Boston?)

Other possibilities:
- you could have a lemon (never heard of one from JK but...)
- your ear could be getting more discriminate. Maybe you've had these problems all along and are just becoming more sensitive to them. Or the problems are slight but they're bothering you more.

Regarding other horns, if I was going to trade my JK for another horn it would only be for the ergos and I would not be willing to trade tone for them. I would look, in this order, at:

- Selmer Ref 36
- Selmer Serie II
- Yamaha 875 II

[mattsax]

Given the price range you specify and other things you say, you might be
frustrated with a vintage Buescher or Conn, and a new Reference 36, while it is a great horn, is out of your price range. I don't know about the Yamaha,but a second hand Serie II might be what you are looking for, especially if you buy a Selmer red brass neck to go with it. I have come to dislike the stock neck on mine, but with the red brass neck, my Serie II tenor is a different horn--open, alive, and the ergonomics are great. You might also want a brighter mouthpiece, as the horn plus neck combination is (at least in my experience) very dark. But dark is what you like if you like Keilwerth to begin with.

[TMadness1013]

I'm of the opinion that no matter what saxophone you play, you will have to make sacrifices...because as you say, there's no such thing as a perfect saxophone.

I can understand wanting to try out a new horn because of intonation issues...if a trip to the repair shop or a new mouthpiece doesn't fix it first.

However, if tone is your #1 priority, then you're really limiting yourself by making ergonomics a priority as well. Think about all the great players that were playing on horns made in the 1910s, 20s, & 30s. Some of these musicians not only had great sounds, but phenomenal technique as well. Parker & Rudy Wiedoeft are just two that come to mind.

If Bird could play a 6M the way he did, I think any of us can do the same. It's just a matter of putting in the time on the horn to get comfortable with it. Tone should come first - you can always get used to different ergonomics with time.

Just my two cents.

[BlueNote]

Thanks for the input, everyone! :)

I think what I plan on doing is to send the horn (no sooner than a month, because I have 3 gigs and a recordings session coming up) to either Roberto in NY or Emilio in Boston (yes, correction ;)) and see what can be done, seeing as they're world class technicians. The more I think about it, the more I realize how out of the picture getting a new saxophone is. My budget isn't that flexible, so it would be nice to see what happens with some modifications to the horn I already have.

[altoblues]

It's good to spend the $$$ on a world class tech if you've got the bread, but for the problems you're talking about, you might do just as well with a good local tech who has the time to sit down with you to discuss the horn. Sending the horn away to Emilio, as good as he is, might not solve your problems since you won't be there to explain in person, or check what he's done. Getting the springs and key heights adjusted key by key will likely clear up your fingering issues to a large extent, and this is very hard to do via long distance. Ask around and find a good tech local to you, set up an appointment and try to be there for the bulk of the work. You will likely save some $$ and you might get a better result. Save Emilio or Roberto for the full overhaul on the horn of your dreams ... and make sure you're there to pick it up, fine tune it.

good luck!

[Dr G]

A J-K in good shape should be more capable than you for doing most anything. Get the horn in shape before you toss it in. I'm betting that if you give up on this horn - for the reasons you've stated - that you'll never be satisfied with whatever horn. Get this one dialed in and play it for a few years. Then you'll be better prepared for your next tenor. If you ever start to think the horn is the limiting issue, just listen to Ernie Watts on his ol' J-K.

[saxymanzach]

Yeah I agree with alto blues.

I was waiting to jump in. I think after only one year, you would be stupid to sell your keilwerth. I honestly believe that one year is not long enough to live and get to know your horn. Not to mention the financial part.

I think it is just time to go have a talk with a good local tech. Set up a time when you have an hour or two to go over what your problems are. Sending your horn to Emilio or Roberto for a tune-up is a waste of your money and their time.

As far a intonation goes, my knowledge is not too sharp ;)

[RickBusarow]

Jacob, I played on an SX-90R tenor (and alto, and SX-90II soprano) for several years. Quite a few of my friends here at school play SX-90R tenors, and my teacher has for the past 12 years or so. I can say that I've never experienced or heard complaints about the severe intonation problems you described. In fact, the SX-90R has a well-earned reputation for being one of the most in-tune tenors ever made. If your octaves sound more like flat nines, there's something seriously wrong with either your horn or your embouchure. Like Altoblues said, if it's your horn, you most likely don't need a guy like Emilio or Roberto to look at it - especially if you're strapped for cash and you need the horn for gigging (as you can bet both guys have long waiting lists). It doesn't take the best tech in the world to float in a new pad or replace a cork.

Similarly, I've never had a problem with Keilwerth ergonomics being too big. In fact, I feel that the right hand pearls on SX-90R tenors are too close to the thumb hook. My hands are about average-sized for a guy - I just barely span a tenth on a keyboard. And of course, there's no way to fault the Keilwerth's left hand. Beyond that, Keilwerths have a very predictable, reliable snap to their action. Really, the keywork's just about as good as it gets.

[altoblues]

as well, and I mean no offense here, but a concentrated study of fingering excercises will help out a lot. a lot of good players overlook this aspect of the practice routine. isolating the muscle memory away from the associated work of scales / tunes really helps to master the motions, and helps you get to know your horn from a purely mechanical standpoint.

finger excercises plus some close attention to your spring tension and key heights should clear up whatever issues you have with getting around on the horn. the intonation could very well be a key height issue as well ...

[newtenorsax]

Hi BlueNote maybe Sarge at World Wide Sax can help. They are located in Everett Wa. http://www.worldwidesax.com/wws_info.htm

[hydemusic]

i played keilwerth horns for many years, and i recently changed to a series II alto, and a series III soprano, the change is very noticable, everything is easier, my tone is rounder. I miss the big grunty sound of the kielwerth sometimes, but tone is something you can do by yourself, i believe.

[Dentarthurdent]

A J-K in good shape should be more capable than you for doing most anything. Get the horn in shape before you toss it in. I'm betting that if you give up on this horn - for the reasons you've stated - that you'll never be satisfied with whatever horn. Get this one dialed in and play it for a few years. Then you'll be better prepared for your next tenor. If you ever start to think the horn is the limiting issue, just listen to Ernie Watts on his ol' J-K.

Well said that man. I don't much like the JKs myself but you must have heard something that clicked with you to make you buy it in the first place. Be true to your first impressions - I find that they are usually right. When you are better than your JK that's the time to trade (but I doubt that day will ever come ;) )

[gary]

BlueNote, just so you don't feel like the Lone Ranger, my experience with the JK's ergos is a little different than Rick's. I'm just mentioning this so you won't think the problem lies all with you. For him I'm sure "the keywork's just about as good as it gets", but for me the YTS 82Z's were the best by far, not the JK's. I have some minor problems with the JK's.

The L.H. low Bb key is a bit of a stretch for my pinky and the Bb bis key lies kind of funny in that my finger seems to feel like it's falling through a crack when I use it. I have to be careful about fingering it.

But none of this is unmaneagable and I certainly would not trade the ergos and the sound of my JK for the sound of the Z that I replaced it with.

[BariSkaJazz]

You guys ever hear some of Gary Smulyan's work?

He's a bari player, plays on this vintage Conn, which IMO isn't exactly the best horn egronomically, and he's certainly not held up. So don't immediately think that a horn's egros can hold you back. Like altoblues said, maybe some new finger busters could be a much better and cheaper solution than a new horn.

As far as the intonation goes, I agree with most of the people who think you
should have a tech look it over.

I probably should look into a tech to getting checked out. It's not something I've done before, so it might be a good idea, because I don't know what I could be missing.


BlueNote, by not having your horn in the shop ever, you've allowed many variables to result in the dissapointment you find in your horn now. The horn could've come to you not properly adjusted, adjusted to someone else's preferences (since you said you bought the horn used), or was out of whack due to shipping. Also, in the year you've had it, you've probably had at least one pad not sit correctly, key heights could be out of whack, which could result in the tuning issues you describe. Have you oiled your keys properly and often enough? If we assume that you have kept your horn in perfect condition, allowing nothing to get changed by keeping perfect care, there is still the possibility that it did not come to you correctly set up.

I try to have my bari brought in every 4 months or so, as I have a contract w/ the tech which covers most minor repair and such (pads, risers, felts, adjustments, springs, etc.) for $40 a year. I particularly like this contract very much because I can bring in my horn whenever I want, not have to worry about cash, and if it still doesn't feel right, I can just go back again. Maybe someone near your has a similar deal?

[Ken]

Bluenote, just fyi there's one apparently world class tech in Everett, that I came across here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18962). I haven't been to him myself but other sotw'ers seem to like him.