SML Sound--Is It Really That Special?

[Swingtone]

Most reviews of SML's seem to praise the intonation and numbers of bells & whistles available on these horns, while calling attention to their vintage, somewhat awkward, keywork. But what about the sound of these horns? Is it really that special? Or is much of the appeal of the SML's the result of their rarity? While I've heard much about the rich and beautiful tone of competitor Buffet's saxes, it doesn't seem like you hear as much about the SML's in this department. Most say it's nice but nothing that will blow you away. Is there anything about the tone that says "that's a French sax" (a la Selmer and Buffet) or do they sound more like vintage American saxes? Any SML players (preferably tenor) care to share their experiences?

[tsaxy]

Don't know if the tone I get is special , BUT, I like it and others who listen like it. I believe one has to have a sound in his mind that he wants to strive for, it will be his personal sound . THe sound one gets is a very subjective thing and you will get all kinds answers as to which is the best sounding horn.

I play a SML GM1 tenor,sn #16,xxx and also a GM1 alto. My main mpc. is a older Dukoff D9 Miami (metal) with standard Rico 3s. I also use a Dukoff black ebolite (plastic) D7 and a B. Larsen 110/0/sm.

That said, I can tell you I have played and owned a number of tenors, including the MK VI, Serie III, BA, Cannonball, The Martin, Buescher TT, and still have a Big B Buescher tenor as my back up. I sold all the others and went back to the SML. As to the ergonomics of the SML, I have no problem and like the left pinky stack better than the Selmer angled stack, especially going from low C# to the low Bb.

tsaxy

[Swingtone]

Thanks, tsaxy

I know what you mean about the personal sound thing. However, I'm sure many could still detect a significant difference in sound between, say, a Conn Chu and the newest pro Yamaha--even when the same person was playing both. You could also insert the Big B for the Conn Chu in that example (BTW I also used to own one of those--what a dark, rich sound they have).

Maybe I should have asked if the SML's have more of a vintage sound (e.g., Conn Chu) or a modern sound (e.g., Mark VI)--or some of both to the point where it's hard to tell.

[tsaxy]

Swingtone,

I get what you mean. When I had both the Cannonball tenor (black raven) and my SMl , I would use the same mpc. reed combo and ask my wife if she could tell the difference as to which horn I was playing. The answer was .."No, they sound a like , I like them both, I can't tell any difference". Obviously she has an untrained ear as to the subtle difference in sax sounds. It just has to sound pleasant to her. To answer your question...the Cannonball was a brighter sound to me and the SML had more tonal color and the "vintage" sound I LIKE. Now, when I do the same test with my wife using the Big B and the SML..I get the same answer from my wife. But, to me the difference between the two vintage horns is subtle again... with the SML having more color and the Big b a little more of a a focused tone. Anyway, I like the SML "vintage" sound and the Bib B comes in second. Others will have a different opinion. makes for a good debate.

Bob AKA tsaxy

[Swingtone]

Thanks again, tsaxy, as if the prices on these horns aren't shooting up already--that's going to send them through the roof! :)

[Sigmund451]

An SML is a great horn. Its closer to an American horn with a really tight focus and tonal core than most other American horns. This is part of the attraction as well as the fact that they have a huge sound that will take down the walls while maintaining a complex tone. I dont think they are worth what they have been fetching lately on ebay but what the heck. The two Ive played had some significant intonation issues ...especally in the palm key region.

[honkytone]

I've owned three SML-made horns and liked them all very much. I now have a Reynolds Contempora alto and a King Marigaux tenor, both the same as the SML Gold Medal II. They're a pleasure to listen to and to play. For a point of reference, my King Marigaux tenor, with an early Florida Link STM #6 and a 2-1/2 Rico reed, sounds exactly like Sonny Rollins on "Way Out West." No idea what his set-up was at that point, but this is a dead ringer for it, chirpy G2 and all.

[WhisprnJohn]

Hi Swingtone -
I have an early Gold Medal which I got to replace a stolen Mk IV. I like it very much and while the keywork is a bit dated, once having gotten used to it I think it is great - solid and fast. Palm keys are the most problematic. My tech did some alterations to the LH thumbrest and octave key which helped alot. As to the tone, I would say it is focused and above all BIG. I tried out this horn next to a Series II, Series III and a Cannonball Stone. The salesman's comment was "you've got a cannon there". Next to a friend's MK IV, I would say the upper end is significantly more robust, intonation is not perfect but certainly as good or better than the Selmer, and the bottom is unusually full and lush. There is that Selmer "core" that people talk about that is not as present in the SML, and it is not as resitant as the Selmer. Better? Worse? I dunno, just different. As with all horns, you have to live with it for awhile to get the best out of it.

[Swingtone]

Thanks Whisprnjohn,

That was a really pithy summary of the pros and cons and exactly what I was looking for (no "popinjaying" going on here-oops, a little O'Reilly humor). I thought about a Selmer Series I or II, but just thought the SML would be a little more "special" (maybe because they're not as common). So a 1967 King Marigaux Tenor is on its way. I'll let you know how I like it.

[copperB]

Swingtone! How do you like your SML? I've read the threads and wonder what you think now.

[cal lemard]

Well, I "feed" my gold medal I tenor thru a lebayle brass jazz piece or thru and old french HR and either way it is the volume and the subnotes that is the point. Exemple: one time the band was one mic short. No sweat, let the selmerplayer have the mic, cause he did need it. The high volume and the clear low end gives you a wider range of variation of the sound and that is what it is all about. Calle

[Swingtone]

I absoultely love my KM tenor--just like Carmen Leggio adores his Gold Medal. :) It's the horn that gives me that modern, Stanley Turrentine sound--clear, yet focused. For a more complex vintage sound, I pull out my 1938 King Zephyr tenor with triple strap hook and double-socket neck--the warmest sounding tenor I have ever owned. I love both of them for different reasons. It's true that the Marigaux has the easiest subtone of any horn I have ever played. In short, you can't go wrong with an SML--more time was spent on them than any other horn in history, and they have immense power to boot.

[Voiceman]

Ya, it's funny, I grew up playing Selmers, and currently own several (including both SA 80 Series II alto & tenors and a Mark VI alto) and yet, since I've owned my Gold Medal alto and tenor, I hardly ever play my Mark VI alto or Series II tenor anymore... The Gold Medal is just so much easier blowing, the action (believe it or not) is so much more fluid and buttery, the upper- and lower-registers MUCH stronger, clearer and richer, and I find the altissimo much easier to hit - with the same mouthpiece & reed setup that I use on my Mk VI! Both alto and tenor are just BIG, with a richness and warmth that are tough to put down, once you hear them...

[-88-]

My serial 22xxx King Marigaux (possibly 1972 to 1974) sounds great, with SML stamped on the neck, and is in beautiful shape, but man it is *not* easy blowing. Am thinking about a Gloger. Anybody know of a fix, or are KM's just second rate SML's and forget about it?

[Voiceman]

Hmmmmmm, interesting, don't know exactly what to tell you on that one, 88, as I've never personally had or blown a KM stencil. However, some "clues" that I've found/learned from various sources might be of some use to you:
1. General Feature Set: The 22xxx s/n and date would've put it clearly in the "Gold Medal Mk II" category. These were considered the "cheapening of the Gold Medal line", with many/most of the vaunted 22 features gone or discontinued by that time in order to save money.
2. Comparison of body tube/bore size: I've heard that the Mk II bore and tube is smaller than the Mk I, which would change the sound dynamic considerably. Think I even saw a forum opened right here on the question (to get confirmation of this), but I haven't checked back - that might be useful. However, even if it's true, it wouldn't account (necessarily) to being *not* easy blowing, as every expert and repair person I've ever talked to will tell you that the vast majority of the air flow (and thus its relative resistance, or lack thereof) through the horn is generated in the combination of the mouthpiece and neck. So, that'd be the most logical/rational place to focus on.
3. Necks different: The Mk II necks DEFINITELY do not fit the Mk I body tube (smaller diameter at the tube/body end), so they are not interchangeable, and might lead one to believe that the smaller bore opening on the neck of the Mk II might equate to a more general smaller bore/airway throughout the Mk II neck - which would DEFINITELY have an impact on "resistance" and that "not-so-easy blowing" feeling you might be experiencing. But that's more conjecture than fact on my part (I've never done a side-by-side comparison of the two necks, so I don't know, just guessing based on some "clues" left behind by other facts...). That would definitely be worth checking out (i.e., whether there's a difference in neck bores/diameters, and how the Mk II compares to the Mk I and the Selmers).
4. Mouthpieces-not all created equal: For some reason, both the Mark VI and the SMLs seem to be very picky (i.e., have very specific preferences) on mouthpieces. Almost everyone that owns either an SML or a Mark VI knows that some just work well and other (otherwise perfectly great) ones just ... don't. You've really gotta try out a number of different pieces to find the right "fit". For example, I put a classic old Otto Link 7* of about the same era on my Mark VI when I first got it, thinking everyone and their brother had used this combination back in the day, but was shocked to find I had to push like I was in labor to get any sort of decent tone out of the 'VI. Slap on my Wilkerson 7 (with almost identical tip opening and bore albeit slightly baffled chamber) and voila, the 'VI turned into a raving monster - the kind of vaunted tone machine of its almost mystical reputation. Who knew? How would you? Just trial and error...

What mpc are you playing now? Tip opening/chamber/bore? Personally I find the more open and bigger bore the better on these older horns... Sure, you've got to soften up your reed perhaps a bit, but... worth it.

[-88-]

Voiceman, interesting comments. I was not tuned into the difference between the GM I and GM II, so thanks for that.

I am using a Dukoff Hollywood 7* and Vandoren T77 on my Rampone et Cazzani R1-J and P.Mauriat System-76, and Conn 10-M and they all respond easily. Free blowing, good intonation, good control.

I tried those pieces on the SML KM and the KM hates them! So, just to satisfy the KM, I tried a vintage Lawton 7*; a modern Link STM 7* (re-worked by Mojo for me); a Guardala Super King; a Dukoff Super Power Chamber D7. Used Vandoren 2.5 and 3 reeds and even tried a 2. All of them feel to me like breathing through a soda straw or trying to blow down a brick wall. It's odd because the horn has a big sound...so that's why I am thinking the neck. But then maybe it's like all KM's of the early 1970's. If all SML KM's are like this then it's no wonder they went out of the saxophone business (bad joke).

[hafuch]

Hi -88- and others,

Sorry to butt in here, but it turns out that the KM-GMII (tenor, at least) has a slightly LARGER bore than does the GM1, and that it is the KM-GMII neck that is too large to fit into the GMI body tube. Check out this thread here for details, particularly the measurements by mnash and saxyben: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=42822

Of my own experience, I play a KM-GMII tenor and have had the total opposite experience: the horn has a sound as big as a whale, is VERY free-blowing, the ergonomics and action are smooth and easy, and the intonation is superb. I primarily use an Otto Link 7*, but use other mouthpieces of various baffle heights as well, and all of them seem to work very well with the horn. And judging from the experiences of various others on this forum, these horns seem to be everything the GMI is (at least when it comes to sound and playability, action, etc.) with the exception of rolled tone holes and the felt adjusters (and perhaps a few other non-critical features).

Truth be told, these horns are fantastic, and I would recommend them to anyone. Keep experimenting with mouthpieces, and I sincerely hope you find the sound and feel you're looking for. I am much more inclined to believe the stuffy-blowing experience you're having is related more to the mouthpiece than to the horn itself. The other possibility is that your particular horn is a lemon, but this is pretty unlikely for an SML-made sax; I believe the mouthpiece issue is the most likely culprit!

Good luck with this, and let us know if you find success! For tips on mouthpieces that suit SML-made saxes, check out this thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=49218. I hope this helps.

SMeLmer

[-88-]

SMeLmer:
Thanks. That's good news that your SML KM is very free-blowing. I'll keep messing with mine. I've an RPC 105 that is such a fine piece on my Rampone et Cazzani tenor, so am going to try it in the morning along with re-trying my Link STM 7*. The truly odd thing is that all the pieces I've tried so far produce a relatively large sound on the King Marigaux, and yet there's been this persistent resistance. I'll A/B it with my R&C tenor. It blows easy.

I read both threads you referred. Helpful and informative. Thanks.

[-88-]

Well I A/B'd this afternoon with the RPC 105. A truly great piece. While the resistance melted under the influence of the RPC, there were various notes that fell out. None did so on the Rampone & Cazzani with the same piece. I think there's a leak in the SML, so will take it off to my tech.

[hafuch]

Hi -88-
Glad to hear that you're getting some promising results with the RPC piece. Keep us posted on how it turns out after you rectify the leak situation. Incidentally, which notes were giving you grief? That might help some (including various techs who read these forums) to pinpoint the locale of the leaks you're experiencing. Good luck with it, and keep us posted on the results!

[mnash]

My experience has been closer to smelmer's than yours, 88. I've been fortunate enough to play and compare 3 GM1s, a Rev D, and my wonderful KM, which I've since parted with in favor of a really really nice (and expensive!) GM1. Actually, I've currently got two GM1s - one in merely very good condition, the other in absolutely spectacular condition. I'm keeping the latter, and will be reluctantly parting with the other soon.

Just for kicks I tried the KM neck on both the GM1 and the Rev D. It fit just fine in both, and really brightened up the sound on both, and I mean in a lively, crisp way, not in the sense that it made them brash or harsh. The KM played brighter and louder than either of the others, and I'm wondering if the neck is more the reason than the horn itself. If I could have kept all of them, I might have used the ugly old beat up soldered KM neck on all of them. They were all free-blowing, not at all stuffy or overly resistant to my chops. I'm not one of those guys who uses a 11* Otto Link, either.

The other necks on the KM darkened it up a bit, but not as much as the KM neck brightened the other horns - I hope that makes sense, I'm not sure it does to me.....

The KM was every bit the horn that the GM1 is, just without a few bells and whistles, and none that affect the main thing - the sound. Except for that neck, which I think may have been just one of those unexplainable magical things.

[honkytone]

The longer I have my King Marigaux tenor I realize that there really is something different about the way it sounds. I also have a B&S 2001, which sounds big and robust and refined, as I'd expect a modern horn to be. But that KM sounds demon possessed--actually not quite as loud as the B&S and some other tenors I've had, but man that thing has an earthy, gritty vibe to it. I wonder if the KM and B&S necks are interchangeable. Will have to try that some time and see what happens.

[Ike Webkins]

I will get my GM1 next week, so I will be able to compare it with my Medusa .... the competion will be utmost interresting :D

Will be able to test Medusa and barone neck too (if diameters are OK)

[hafuch]

Hey Honkytone,

Ditto on the KM sound! After really carefully and intently listening to the vibe and sound it produces, I must say that the SML-KM has an earthy, robust, muscular voice that is audibly different from that of other horns I have played and owned. And it's not just me; several listeners have commented independently on this same point, and after listening to recordings of the KM side by side with other horns, I have to agree. These SML-KM horns really do have a distinct voice. I initially thought it was just brighter, but it's more nuanced than that; richer, fuller, earthier, commanding ... perhaps even gutsier or muscular is more like it. I imagine the SML-KM's distinctive sound has much to do with the larger bore and bell design, but whatever the source of that earthy, muscular voice, I must confess it's really starting to grow on me!

Well, put that into the "For what it's worth" column, and decide for yourselves. The distinctive SML-KM sound is no myth, though.

SMeLmer

P.S. By the way, -88-, how is that KM working for you? If you're still experiencing stuffiness, it may also be due to poor regulation. Check it out with a leak light or something and see if leaks are responsible. If so, try to fix them yourself or have your tech help you out. It's certainly worth getting it into good playing condition though, because it will thrill you when it's in top playing form!

[Swingtone]

SML KM (Strasser Marigaux Lemaire / King Marigaux) sound

= (equals)

SML Gold Medal sound

Strip away the cosmetics, and they're the same horn, you know. BTW I own a '67 SML KM, myself. Has 20 of the GM's famous 22 features. As close as you can get to a Mark VI for 2K--but like you said, with its own special sound.

[Ike Webkins]

My friend Al blew my rev D alto a couple of days ago... and he was amazed by the huge "jazzy" sound he got from it (he has a Selmer SA). the sound of the alto was quite close to a tenor sound (meyer NY like mpc...)

I fall in love with this sound :)

[-88-]

Hey Honkytone,

Ditto on the KM sound! After really carefully and intently listening to the vibe and sound it produces, I must say that the SML-KM has an earthy, robust, muscular voice that is audibly different from that of other horns I have played and owned. And it's not just me; several listeners have commented independently on this same point, and after listening to recordings of the KM side by side with other horns, I have to agree. These SML-KM horns really do have a distinct voice. I initially thought it was just brighter, but it's more nuanced than that; richer, fuller, earthier, commanding ... perhaps even gutsier or muscular is more like it. I imagine the SML-KM's distinctive sound has much to do with the larger bore and bell design, but whatever the source of that earthy, muscular voice, I must confess it's really starting to grow on me!

Well, put that into the "For what it's worth" column, and decide for yourselves. The distinctive SML-KM sound is no myth, though.

SMeLmer

P.S. By the way, -88-, how is that KM working for you? If you're still experiencing stuffiness, it may also be due to poor regulation. Check it out with a leak light or something and see if leaks are responsible. If so, try to fix them yourself or have your tech help you out. It's certainly worth getting it into good playing condition though, because it will thrill you when it's in top playing form!

Hafuch: life being full of surprises, I have had to move to a new place, and thus the move has slowed my SML-KM testing way down. That plus the acquisition of two more tenors, and only so many hours in a day, makes me think I will sell the KM. However, I want to make sure it's regulated and leak free, so before I sell it, it will go for a visit to Lee's Sax Worx in San Francisco. Hopefully that will solve everything. I'll report back.

[nissen]

Yes the SML Tenor has quote amazing tone and intonation. I am selling one on ebay at the moment and if anyone wants to come and try it they are most welcome. Go to ebay.co.uk to see details

[Ike Webkins]

a point o view (with Selmer refs):

huge sound like a BA, projection a la M VI...:D

best of the two worlds "en somme" :sunny: