How to choose my ultimate Tenor? [Archive]

AlistairD

03-27-2006, 12:26 PM

All,

First off, an apology to anyone (Frank and Gary in particular) who thinks that this question has been raised and answered before, but I could not find the answer using the search facility. I found similar threads but am happy to be corrected if someone can point me in the direction of the correct thread.

I am about to embark on a quest for a new Tenor. The plan is that this will be my final Tenor (GAS permitting…) I have no expectations for reaching a great playing standard but I really enjoy playing and achieving the highest standard I can is important to me. The budget is not fixed but… ideally, I do not want to exceed the cost of a Selmer Ref 54. Now having browsed SOTW this probably gives me a shortlist of:

Yamaha 82
Yamaha 875
Yanagisawa 991/992
Selmer Series II
Selmer Series III
Selmer Ref 36
Selmer Ref 54
Rampone R1 Jazz
Borgani Jubilee

This list may change as I progress, but that is not my question.

Living in the UK, I do not think it is possible to do a side by side comparison of all of these. For example, looking at the stocklist of the Borgani importer in the UK, he has the Selmer Series III but no others on the list (though he does have a Yamaha 62E and a Yani T901.) The rest I can probably compare side by side at a single supplier.

My proposed approach therefore is to use the Series III as a benchmark and compare one model of the Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Rampone and Borgani to the Series III and try and grade my preference. Which ever manufacturer comes out on top, then compare their models together to make the final choice?

Unfortunately, that sounds a bit scientific and clinical. My other option, which is my preferred option, is to go and play each of them (preferably on their own). Once I have done this, then which ever ones I really want to play again, to go back again and re-try them. Then base the final decision on which one I still most want to go back and play most again.

Any views on which approach is likely to be better… Using your head or your heart????

makemyday

03-27-2006, 12:46 PM

I think the best thing for you to do is to take someone with you, preferably a pro or some advanced player with no ego-issues. Play as many horns as you can, alternating between the two of you. In that way you can compare eachothers outcome and hopefully one horn will come up that is better than all the others you have tried.

If you REALLY want to have the best horn, don't just go out one day saying to yourself, "today I will by my ultimate horn", but be prepared to spend weeks or even months untill you feel ánd know that you've found the best one available for that moment.

Good luck!

gary

03-27-2006, 01:26 PM

Alistaire, if you're not presently playing a Selmer III and accustomed to it's characteristics, using it as a yardstick may not be very accurate. I think you would be comparing other saxes to one which you are not intimate and I just wouldn't do that. I prefer your second option.

I spent a day at Saxofonwinkel in the NL playing tenors and went back and forth a million times. I didn't actually find one that knocked my socks off, and I had them all there to play.

Later, I went to Stephan Boesken's ostensibly to try and buy a B&S Medusa, which I had already talked myself into. He also had two Keilwerths tenors sitting there and I had had no intention of trying, much less buying, a Keilwerth.

I played the Medusa and wasn't knocked out. I played the first of the JKs, a special model and it also didn't do anything for me. I picked up the second and blew about three or four notes and just laughed. The difference to me was remarkable and I knew in an instant that I had to have that particular horn. If you're lucky, you'll have a similar experience and right then and there you'll know.

I think it's worth considering, that my preference might have been because of that particular horn and not necessarily because of the brand. Of course a JK is likely to have a basic sound different than a Yamaha and I prefer that, but my point is look for that one horn that gets you excited.

Happy hunting! ;)

btw - why have you left Keilwerth off your list? :|

Dentarthurdent

03-27-2006, 01:30 PM

The Borgani importer into the UK (are we both thinking of the gentleman from Oxford???) has a problem with a. attitude and b. body odour. Both make dealing with him an unrewarding experience. If you must try the borgs you'll have to deal with him - just bear in mind that unbiased advice is something you AIN'T gonna get from him - he pushes the Borgs like you wouldn't believe and rubbishes everyother make - regardless as to what suits you best. Sax.co.uk will give you the unbiased service you want for all makes apart from Borg.
When I bought my tenor a couple of years back I did the same as you which did include a trip to oxford to try the Borgs. I didn't buy one but came away leaving a mental note to myself to steer clear of the dealer in future.

Jolle

03-27-2006, 01:30 PM

My two cents :

- I strongly believe that the "best" sax is the one you get used to. It's like shoes : they should fit and they should be OK, but they're only getting really comfortable after 100 miles walking on them. --- edit : they should be however something attracting you to that horn, as explained in the posts above. Nevertheless...

- indeed, take someone with you ! I took my absolutely sax-ignorant (but great piano-player) girlfriend with me on my last quest, and she could tell better than me when the sax and I connected just by the sound. Having a second opinion, even from an inexperienced (but dedicated!) compagnon, is important.

- I would try to play those saxes as much as possible. I tried quite some out in shops without ever bying one. It really helps you in listening to the sound of the animal and feeling the differences between saxes. The one I bought, I tried out several times before making the decision. I think I drove in total about 400 miles to test it before I bought it.

Succes in finding one !

greetzz

AlistairD

03-27-2006, 02:36 PM

All,

Thanks for the valued input so far...

If you REALLY want to have the best horn, don't just go out one day saying to yourself, "today I will by my ultimate horn", but be prepared to spend weeks or even months untill you feel ánd know that you've found the best one available for that moment.

I am planning on a long quest.... could be 6 months, could be 18 months.... Haven't got all the pennies together yet anyway

btw - why have you left Keilwerth off your list?

No reason at all Gary, will definitely add them on (any model in particular I should look at in my price range?)

Dentarthurdent,

I have been to Oxford once, so have "experienced" him already. But, I don't think my quest would be complete without at least trying a Borgani (especially as I love a lot of Joe Lovano's stuff..)

Please keep the suggestions coming, its really important to me that I make the right choice....

03-27-2006, 09:30 PM

I'll second, or third, what gary and jolle said about getting used to a horn. It's difficult to say for sure how the horn will sound until you play it for a while and adjust to all it's characteristics. Having said that, you probably can play a horn for a few minutes (assuming you have some playing experience) and determine right away if it's at least a candidate.

I actually like the benchmark idea, but only if the benchmark horn is one you've played for some time so you have discovered most of its potential. For example, my benchmark horn is a very good MK VI tenor that I've owned for about 25 years. When I went on a quest for a second tenor, I always compared what I tried to my MKVI. Several horns were pretty good, but they fell short of the VI so I didn't buy them. Then I tried a '49 Buescher Aristocrat and after playing up and down the horn for about 2 minutes, I knew beyond any doubt that I had my second horn. It soon put the VI on backup status. But if you don't already have a good benchmark horn, you'll have to do as many comparisons as possible.

Finally, I have to ask, since I love the vintage horns, why have you disregarded them? For the same price (or less) as the new horns you list, you could pick up a great vintage model from a respected dealer in near-perfect playing condition (probably better playing condition than a brand new horn), and most of these dealers will allow you a trial period. Just something to consider, since you are obviously approaching this with some real thought.

AlistairD

03-27-2006, 10:23 PM

JL,

Finally, I have to ask, since I love the vintage horns, why have you disregarded them? For the same price (or less) as the new horns you list, you could pick up a great vintage model from a respected dealer in near-perfect playing condition (probably better playing condition than a brand new horn), and most of these dealers will allow you a trial period. Just something to consider, since you are obviously approaching this with some real thought.

I haven't been playing very long and play for the enjoyment I get out of it. My assumption (and the impression I get from reading here...) is that modern horns are generally easier to play and certainly easier to play in tune. Now I may be wrong here so if you have any horns in mind (and remember I am in the UK so the selection of vintage may not be as good as the US) that are easy to play (and in tune) then please let me know and I'll add them to the list. As I said earlier, its a quest which may take some time and I need to get it right...

03-27-2006, 11:54 PM

My assumption (and the impression I get from reading here...) is that modern horns are generally easier to play and certainly easier to play in tune. Now I may be wrong here so if you have any horns in mind that are easy to play (and in tune) then please let me know and I'll add them to the list. As I said earlier, its a quest which may take some time and I need to get it right...

I know this has been said, but I don't entirely buy it. There is a grain of truth in that an old, poorly maintained horn will present all sorts of problems, and certainly not ALL vintage horns are great horns. But a good vintage model (Conn 10M, King Super 20, The Martin, Buescher Aristocrat and 400, to name a few) that has been restored to good playing condition by a tech who knows what they are doing will play quite easily with excellent response. My Buescher 156 Aristocrat tenor is very freeblowing and seems to play effortlessly. The ergonomics on some vintage models are probably not as good as on modern horns, but to some extent it's what you get used to. I find the ergos on my Bueschers to be nearly as good as the MKVI, and certainly good enough for my limited technique.

Regarding the intonation issue, I'd be willing to put money down that the 1930to early 1950 Bueschers have the best intonation of any horn ever built, including all modern horns. I have 2 vintage Buescher tenors and they definitely have better intonation than my MKVI, and the VI isn't bad either. I can't speak for the other vintage models since I don't own any others. Now I will admit I haven't played all the horns on the planet, but my point is, with a vintage Buescher at least, intonation won't be an issue.

Al Stevens

03-28-2006, 02:59 AM

Take a tuning meter with you. Some horns have intonation problems in some registers that you cannot hear outside an ensemble unless you have extremely discerning ears. Besides all the other things that make you fall in love with a horn, you want to ensure that you can play it in tune without a lot of effort.

I wish someone had given me that advice before I bought a Yamaha 82Z. It would have saved me the loss I took when I sold it six months later so I could buy a sweet-playing Mark VI.

58tenor

03-28-2006, 03:30 AM

Too much focus on the horn here. Any quality sax will do. Yes, playing several will have some models come to favor over others. Pick one. Buy it. It will make you want to play and practice more. That's where results will come from,regardless of what level you aspire to.

Hypothetical question: if there were only ONE make and model of saxophone in existence, would you still want to PLAY? In otherwords, shopping is fun, but can be a distraction from making music. Best luck in your quest!

jacobeid

03-28-2006, 04:07 AM

Take someone with you to hear it. Take a tuner to check intonation. I would also recommend putting on a blindfold getting the saxes handed to you by the friend you took along. This will eliminate the "ooh this is a ref. 54 so it sounds better." You may find that out of all the horns you played, an intermediate yamaha or the like plays the best for you. By playing blindfolded you won't judge the saxes based on reputation, but by your eyes and your friends ears. Of course, you'll have to take the blindfold off to check intonation, but you can do that after you've decided you like the sax.

AlistairD

03-28-2006, 06:12 AM

All,

Great tips....

I would also recommend putting on a blindfold getting the saxes handed to you by the friend you took along.

As several of you have suggested, I will try and take along someone who can play when I get near to my decision. My thought was to have them play for me "blindfolded" to remove any inbuilt bias, but I may well try playing blindfolded as well.

I'm open to any more suggestions..

Hypothetical question: if there were only ONE make and model of saxophone in existence, would you still want to PLAY? In otherwords, shopping is fun, but can be a distraction from making music. Best luck in your quest!

Yes I would still want to PLAY. This quest will not distract from my practicing but I became aware of the difference between what I have got and what I could have when I tried my teachers Ref 54...

thehighend

03-28-2006, 06:43 AM

AlistairD, tough question! Here's how I would rank-order your list, today: (i) 992, (ii) 36, (iii) 991, (iv) 54, (v) 875, (vi) III, (vii) II, (viii) 82z, (ix) r1, (x) J.

On a given day, and with a proper setup, any of these horns could be #1. You might also consider adding B&S to your "short list" of horns to try.

58tenor

03-28-2006, 08:37 AM

Yes,definitely give the B&S consideration. You could miss out on a great horn.Made in Germany, not Taiwan.

AlistairD

03-28-2006, 09:40 AM

I thought B&S had finished production?

Ruediger Kramer

03-28-2006, 11:24 AM

I thought B&S had finished production?

yes, but there are still offered some saxes for very good prices (look at ebay USA or Germany: http://instrumente.search.ebay.de/Medusa_Saxophone_W0QQbsZFindenQQcatrefZC6QQcoactio nZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfgtpZQ QfposZPostleitzaQQfromZR2QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1Q QftrvZ1QQga10244Z10425QQlopgZQQsacatZ46595QQsadisZ 200QQsaprchiZQQsaprcloZQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ3QQsbrf togZ1QQsofocusZunknown)

Eddie McLean

03-28-2006, 04:00 PM

AlistairD,
I am curious to know how you got on with the tenor tests. Especially the result of a blind test with your larruping pink Bently and others. Without being prejudiced against the Bently, just how does it compare?
I have been playing a MKVI for 38 years and have just got a YTS32. Really the differences are small, though people will try to convince you otherwise. Eddie.

Al Stevens

03-28-2006, 07:37 PM

I have been playing a MKVI for 38 years and have just got a YTS32. Really the differences are small, though people will try to convince you otherwise.

Likely both horns respond similarly to how you play. Others might have different experiences, which is why they weigh in with different opinions. It's really a personal thing, I think.

Selmerdude

03-28-2006, 10:02 PM

To add my tuppence worth...
I have just purchased a secondhand Series III Tenor and it is a truly wonderful horn (for me!!). It is so easy to play by comparison with my old horn, (though most of them were).
I came to the decision after looking on and off for over a year and as I travel around the UK and Europe quite a lot, when ever I'm in a city with time to spare I go to a sax shop and spend an hour or two trying their expensive horns. Usually only one or two horns at a time but give them a really long play. I take my own mouthpiece and reed with me so that the sound and playability can be directly compared with my old student sax. I played most of the horns on your list, some new and some used. The two I liked best were the Series III and the Yanni T992 bronze. When the right offer came along, I went for it and am very happy with my choice.
Don't forget to check out the used horns. There are many instruments bought as a present which are never played and sold on for £hundreds less than new price. Mine is almost "as new" and cost £700 less than a new one!!
I think there is a lot of truth in what others have said, that the horn is 10% and the player is 90%. If that weren't true there would be hundreds of thousands of fantastic tenor players out there to go with all those new horns! All you need for a new horn is money.... to be a great sax player you need skill/tallent.
I don't have enough of either, but I'm working on it :-)
Best of luck,
Selmerdude.

AlistairD

03-29-2006, 06:10 AM

I am curious to know how you got on with the tenor tests. Especially the result of a blind test with your larruping pink Bently and others. Without being prejudiced against the Bently, just how does it compare?

I haven't started the "quest" yet. I'll update this thread when I have but... I am keen to keep the thread about "how" to approach the quest and keep it away from a "sax -vs- sax" thread.

I have just purchased a secondhand Series III Tenor and it is a truly wonderful horn (for me!!). It is so easy to play by comparison with my old horn, (though most of them were).

Selmerdude, this is exactly my feeling as well. I have only tried one of the horns on my list and found it so much easier to play and the stability of G2 and D2 were much improved over my current horn. I will not discount used horns. It looks like your approach and my second approach were very similar and in line with Gary's suggestion so this is looking more and more like my favoured option.

AlistairD

03-31-2006, 06:45 AM

The quest is due to start soon.

My teacher has said he will come along to help with the testing and listening which is great (even though he does have a strong bias towards the Ref 54....) This will give me an experienced ear to advise on my sound plus give me the chance to hear what a highly skilled and experience musician can get out of the horns....

makemyday

03-31-2006, 10:16 AM

he does have a strong bias towards the Ref 54....)

Have him play blindfolded! Might be fun for him too.

AlistairD

04-01-2006, 08:35 AM

Have him play blindfolded! Might be fun for him too.

Great idea.... not sure how he would react if he prefered something over the 54.....

les

04-04-2006, 12:31 PM

I just read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that I am the most obnoxious, prejudiced, biased, know-it-all horn snob there is. I plan on staying that way, so I guess I won't be reading threads like this one anymore! Sorry to make waves........

thehighend

04-04-2006, 03:29 PM

Les, let me take a wild guess: the Mk. VI is the best thing since sliced bread, right? The real certifiables are always the die-hard Mk. VI fanatics. :)

sam_uk

04-04-2006, 03:42 PM

Alistair

I read your post with interest as I'm in a similar position, whereby I'm about to look for a horn upgrade from a student yamaha tenor.

My thoughts are, you can follow a scientific approach, weight up all the attributes, ie. tone, intonation, reliabilty, key action, cost ... and place in preference order and judge each horn accordingly.

Or as I'm hoping when I play test a selection of horns that one just makes you "not" want to put it down. If the intonation doesn't need too much work with my preferred mpc setup then it is the one. As my Teacher says music is all about feeling not science, keep it simple.

I'm a late bloomer and have been playing around 3 years and intonation is the key for me after tone of course. I've tried some vintage horn's and although I can adjust the intonation to a degree, do I want to work that hard ? I'm a fan of the Vintage Bueschers, but finding a good one in the Uk is not easy.

I saw Art Themen locally in Harrow, Gt. London playing a Joe Lavano Borg his sound was amazing, superb. Its unfortunate there is just one Borgani outlet in the UK. For other makes Dawkes seem quite good in Maidenhead, Bucks.

I particulary like the idea of the blindfold test - removes any bias.

AlistairD

04-04-2006, 03:58 PM

Sam,

Good luck with your quest.... Yep I only know of Allegro in Oxford as a Borgani dealer. The other dealers that come to mind are sax.co.uk, Howarth's of London and John Myatt in Hitchin...

I'm also hoping that one horn will eventually grab me and not let me put it down (esp. if I am blindfolded...)

Let me know how you get on...

Al Stevens

04-04-2006, 05:55 PM

I particulary like the idea of the blindfold test - removes any bias.

I wonder. If you carry a strong bias in with you, the blindfold might be only a temporary diversion. When you take the blindfold off, if the horn of choice does not match the bias, how likely is it that your bias tells you to ignore the test results?

Some players just want to be seen by other players holding a lacquerless 50 year old VI. Blindfolds are incompatlible with wanting to be seen.

(I have a lacquerless 50 year old VI and a lacquerful Ref 54 LE. I'm having a profound identity crises over how I want to be seen)

zootspiker

04-07-2006, 10:25 PM

Much truth in all that was previously posted. Horns are a very personal choice. I did the blindfold test when I was picking out an alto for doubling and shocked myself when I settled on a YAS 875. (I've subsequently picked up a Chu Berry that is sweet, but the Yamaha still stands out) This is not a recommendation for Yamaha (I play a MVI and Series II tenor), just a suggestion to keep an open mind, and let your personal experience dictate your choice.

AlistairD

04-08-2006, 08:16 PM

OK,
The quest has started, today I played the following new Tenors:

Selmer S80 Series III
Borgani Jubilee - Black
Borgani Jubilee - Pearl Gold
Borgani Jubilee - Pearl Silver
Borgani Jubilee - Copper 24K (Gold and Copper)
Borgani Jubilee - Joe Lovano (Pearl Silver- gold plated keys)
Borgani Jubilee - Vintage Mk 2 (Unlacquered Brushed Brass)

Now I played the Selmer in the middle of the Borgani's mainly as a test comparison... My wife was there listening to give a second opinion.

To summarise, neither of us liked the Selmer at all (but this could easily have been the specific horn and I will NOT discount it on this test alone.) The big suprise to both of us was the significant differences between the Borganis. Now, I don't want to try and work out why the all sounded different but it was clear to both of us (me more so when playing in front of a piece of glass) that they had their own characteristic.

My wife's favorite was the Vintage and mine was the Copper and Gold (I think that it is galvanised in some way ???) with us both being happy that these two werre certainly the best for me, with the Black being third (I really struggled to get F3 out of the Black one for some reason...)

The Borgani's are with out a doubt, different to other manufactures but whether the differences we heard were down to the finish or the difference in horns themselves it was not clear (as there was only one of each finish to play...)

Loads to play yet, but a good (and interesting) start. I really loved the Copper and Gold one....

http://www.saxophoneheaven.com/images/stock/st60.jpg

[Image courtesy of www.saxophoneheaven.com ]

les

04-10-2006, 02:15 PM

Note to "thehighend" : I play a Conn 10m. I did however play a MKVI for 30 years and a bundy before that. The new horns are good if you buy them used but as an off the rack purchase I believe that they are a poor value.
My choices for horns to take to a gig BEFORE I would consider a new Borgani or Series III etc... are(in no particular order of preference):
Selmer Mark VI
Selmer Super balanced
Conn 10M (RTH)
Selmer MKVII
Selmer Balanced action (not the early ones though)
Selmer "Super" and radio improved
Conn Chu Berry or transitional

This list assumes, of course, that each one was set up the way I like it.
These are the "top tier" Tenors, in my opinion. My choices for alto would be similar but would include the King Super 20. I consider all other tenors to be "2nd tier" horns. There is nothing I can get out of a new horn that I can't get more of from one of these horns. That won't be news to anyone who knows me......

AlistairD

04-10-2006, 07:23 PM

Today I tried some used ones...:

Selmer Mk VII (Silver)
Yani T991
Selmer SA
Buffet S1

Clear winner (especially as it wasn't on my list and the guy in the shop suggested it) was the Buffet S1.

A fabulous sound, good intonation (as far as I could tell, forgot my tuner) and the key layout seemed to really suit me, even the unusual right pinky...

AlistairD

04-12-2006, 07:26 AM

All,

Tried another group of saxes (with my wife along to listen again this time):

Yani T991
Yani T902 (they didn't have the T992 in stock)
Selmer Series II
Selmer Ref 36 - dark lacquer
Selmer Ref 54 - dark lacquer
Selmer Ref 54 - antique brushed

Neither of us liked the sound of either Yani (though the ergonomics are great).

The Series II was nice (better than the Series III I had previously tried) and better than the Yani's but not as good as the two Ref's we liked (but way better than the Dark lacquer 54 for some reason?)

The dark lacquer Ref 54 was a real dissapointment... but the Ref 36 and the antique brushed 54 were both great. Very different and we couldn't decide which was better. We both prefered the low notes on the 54 and the higher notes on the 36 (which I know is opposite to a lot of views that I have read here...)

Most suprising thing was that the two 54's sounded so different. It must have been the setup or something on the dark lacquered one as it just sounded so dull... whereas the antique brushed sounded completely different.

At least we are starting to get towards a short list (though I haven't tried a Keilwerth yet):

Borgani Jubilee - Antique
Borgani Jubilee 24K - Copper
Selmer Ref 36 - dark lacquer
Selmer Ref 54 - antique brushed
Buffet S1

Clearly there will need to be a number of further play tests and I could live with any of the above list (and I guess if a really good deal came around on one of them then that might persuade me..) But the plan is to keep trying whenever I can to see if one emerges from the pack.

The biggest suprise to me (and my wife) has been the clear tonal differences between same model the horns.

When the list gets down to a few, I also feel that I will need to try them with different mouthpieces as I may then find that some do not match as well with my Jody Jazz and that the final order could be completely different with an Otto Link..???

Who said this was going to be easy....:?

Dr G

04-12-2006, 04:59 PM

The dark lacquer Ref 54 was a real dissapointment... but the Ref 36 and the antique brushed 54 were both great. Very different and we couldn't decide which was better. We both prefered the low notes on the 54 and the higher notes on the 36 (which I know is opposite to a lot of views that I have read here...)

When the list gets down to a few, I also feel that I will need to try them with different mouthpieces as I may then find that some do not match as well with my Jody Jazz and that the final order could be completely different with an Otto Link..???

You may well be right on that, Alistair. I find that each time I get a new horn, I start the mouthpiece quest all over again. Still, if that 36 is not delivering something fat on the bottom end, it's out of adjustment. My 36 likes all manner of Link-style mouthpieces - Barone Jazz/Hollywood/New York, Lamberson L/J, and Morgan L. If you want to really bark, try a Lawton B. This new Freddie Gregory II is really happening as well. I don't know the Jody Jazz and so cannot comment on its performance on this horn.

All in all, I find the Ref 36 to be very mouthpiece friendly but maybe that's because we just like the same kind of mouthpieces. :D

JPSaxMan

04-13-2006, 04:52 AM

I can't wait to see your results on this quest. Keep it up! :D

baritone

04-13-2006, 05:35 AM

AlistairD,

I am in Kent, I have two Mark VI tenor, if you interest drop me a line at

peterchik1113@hotmail.com

1saxman

04-13-2006, 11:24 PM

"ultimate Tenor"

No such animal. As you go along, there's always something new coming out that you just have to try. Generally speaking, I would concentrate on Selmer Paris tenors, both new and vintage. They're still the standard of the world. Keep one thing in mind - when you blow a sax that you've never seen before, you're getting a snapshot of one hour out of a probable very long lifetime for that horn. Maybe it has a little leak or it's missing a tiny piece of cork - it's very hard to tell if the horn is playing to it's potential or if the set-up you're playing is the best for that horn.
Still, with so many more choices today than ever before, there's no doubt that you just don't have the time to bond with a horn you're trying out, and it's ridiculous to try to match mouthpieces to horns that you probably won't buy. Just keep on trying them with your usual set-up. This is the control in the experiment, and although you will discard some great saxes, there will be one that comes to life for you and melts into your hands. Just keep looking, and remember, each and every sax is an individual, and you can't judge a line of horns by any one.

AlistairD

04-15-2006, 03:38 PM

Swingtone

04-15-2006, 03:54 PM

Les,

I know you have seen and worked on tons of horns in your day, so I'm curious what you think of the vintage SML's. Would you consider those 2nd tier? Is all the attention justified? Or is it just hype based on their obscurity? Saxpics picked them 2nd after the Mark VI as the best "all-round" horn--and on par with the Selmer Super Balanced Action. I'm really curious because I have a 1960s King Marigaux Tenor currently on order.

Thanks!

Swingtone

04-15-2006, 04:20 PM

BTW Les, I recently found a copy of the CD you cut with Kenny Barron at a used record store in Kansas City--"No More, No Less." I had it on autoplay in my car for about 2 weeks. Great stuff!

AlistairD

04-22-2006, 03:29 PM

GOT IT....!!!!!

More later, off to practice, but got great deal on a Ref 36!!!

Swingtone

04-22-2006, 03:46 PM

Starting to sound like a "hardhead" here, but you may want to check out this other thread, if you haven't already:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37761&highlight=clip+comparison

After listening to all the clips, the consensus was that Pete sounded like Pete on every tenor--and some even picked the two saxes worth under $1,000 (King Cleveland and Conn Pan Am) as sounding better than the Conn 30M, which is valued at like $4,000 or something. This was a valuable lesson to me--just bought a 1956 H.N. White King Cleveland tenor for $399 on ebay :D .

JPSaxMan

04-22-2006, 03:50 PM

Cool Alistair...hope you like your new Selmer! :D

gary

04-22-2006, 04:13 PM

Cool Alistair...hope you like your new Selmer! :D
Here too, Alistair. Enjoy, man!

And BTW, Pete might've sounded like Pete on that other thread, but there was hardly a concensus that the sounds being produced on the different saxes were the same. I certainly heard a difference. Just like I heard a difference when I A-B'd a Ref 36 and YTS 82Z side by side.

Good choice Alistair!

sinkdraiN

04-22-2006, 04:39 PM

Fun thread. I remember when I was searching for my tenor. I brought just about anyone I could to the music stores to get there opinion.

I found it interesting the difference in opinion between sax players and non-musicians towards the tone of the horns. At times, I found the non-sax players to have the most useful comments.

Swingtone

04-22-2006, 04:44 PM

Here too, Alistair. Enjoy, man!

And BTW, Pete might've sounded like Pete on that other thread, but there was hardly a concensus that the sounds being produced on the different saxes were the same. I certainly heard a difference. Just like I heard a difference when I A-B'd a Ref 36 and YTS 82Z side by side.

Good choice Alistair!

You might want to go back and reread it. It seems like most people's first impression was that he sounded very similar on all four (with the 5th horn added later). It was only after a second listen that I began to pick up on the nuances of the different horns. But I know what you mean, there are two sides to the argument (sound concept vs. "brand thing"), and while not trying to boast or anything, I must say that i correctly picked 2 of the four horns before looking at the answers. Picking the Buescher was easy, since I have owned 2 Crats in the past--I just listened for the darkest core sound. And I picked the Pan Am out of the bunch. But what really blew me away--I actually thought the King was the 30M and vice versa! Seeing how the 30M usually sells for $4,000 and the King for $400 or less, you can see that there is a lot of hype in the vintage market.

AlistairD

04-22-2006, 06:52 PM

OK,

When I set out I assumed it was going to take a long time to find what I wanted. If you've been following this thread you'll know I was interested in the Borgani's, a Buffet and the Reference 54 and 36. My wife had helped and listened to most of them with me and our current thinking was either the Borganis or the Selmers.

When I tried the 36 and 2 54s, we preferred the 36 but we hadn't compared the Selmers to the Borganis. Also the 36 had been in the store for 3 years or so and no one wanted it.... So after some discussion the shop made what appeared to be a really good price offer on the 36. I did some research and could not find one cheaper in Europe, possible would have been slightly cheaper in the US but shipping, import duty, VAT would have made the cost loads higher plus having tried a number of the same models, I was not keen to buy without trying.

So, today I went again with my teacher and I had only tried about a dozen notes on the 36 when he said "That's the ONE...." This was exactly my feeling but it was good to hear it from someone who knows.... I then got him to try it and it sounded great and he said it was a good one (and I think he should know as he picked his 54 from a choice of 15 in Paris...) He then tried the 54 and said that the 54 was a good one as well. In fact he preferred the 54. Now listening to him play the 54 (and he played my Pink Bentley as well as a comparison for me...) I still preferred the sound of the 36.

I then tried the 54 and he said, for him the 54 was better but for me, no question, the 36 was the ONE....

So, we agreed the 36 was not only a good one, but the ONE for me.... Now, price wise it was £500 (€725 or $890) cheaper than the 54 and the 54 was £100 - £200 cheaper than most other shops in the UK..... And this inlcuded the Reference Case, a Selmer C* 80 mouthpiece (anyone want to buy this???) a years warranty, etc....

So, I'm over the moon, now I just have to be able to learn to play it..:D :D :D

jonathanbyrnes

05-07-2006, 10:25 PM

if i were you id go to london to Howarths they have all those saxes except the borgani. Pick 2 or 3 from the list as quickly as possible then spend alot of time picking between those 2 or 3. All the saxes on your list are great horns and will serve you well. Its more a matter of getting used to the one you pick rather than trying to find the perfect horn. None of them are perfect its just a matter of getting used to the quirks of the horn you pick