Is the saxophone missing keys?

[sinebar]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that there are keys missing on the sax so you can't simply play a melody without artificially producing the correct pitch at some point in the tune. Either the natural notes of the sax are too low or too high but nothing in between. It just seems that there aren't enough keys. Is this right or am I just doing somthing wrong?

[Merlin]

Unless there's something wrong with your horn, you must being doing something incorrectly. Saxophones are capable of producing a full chromatic scale in excess of 3 octaves.

[fballatore]

You're doing something wrong. Do a search on fingering chart for the answer.

[kcp]

You're doing something wrong. Do a search on fingering chart for the answer.

Actually you don't have to do a search, you'll find several web-links to saxophone fingering charts listed right here: http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30232

[sinebar]

Unless there's something wrong with your horn, you must being doing something incorrectly. Saxophones are capable of producing a full chromatic scale in excess of 3 octaves.

Ok but is it capable of producing the full chromatic scale in excess of 3 octives with just the keys alone? I mean no alitissimo or anything like that.

[RickBusarow]

Ok but is it capable of producing the full chromatic scale in excess of 3 octives with just the keys alone? I mean no alitissimo or anything like that.Yes. In fact, most pitches have several alternate fingerings to choose from. Just what pitches do you think you're missing?

[Saxn]

Well, not 3 with keys alone, right? I mean Bb to Bb2 to Bb3 is 2 octaves, and then up to F#...

[RickBusarow]

Well, yes, to play the altissimo pitches you need altissimo. Sorry - I haven't been awake for very long.

But from what you've posted so far I get the impression you're creating some pitches by "lipping down" the pitches 1/2 step above them, "artificially" creating the desired pitch. This isn't necessary for any pitch you'd want to play, throughout the normal range of the horn or in the altissimo.

[Mike Ruhl]

Well, not 3 with keys alone, right? I mean Bb to Bb2 to Bb3 is 2 octaves, and then up to F#...That's correct. And some modern horns are even keyed to high G (second G above the staff).

It sounds like you just need a fingering chart.

[sinebar]

Well, yes, to play the altissimo pitches you need altissimo. Sorry - I haven't been awake for very long.

But from what you've posted so far I get the impression you're creating some pitches by "lipping down" the pitches 1/2 step above them, "artificially" creating the desired pitch. This isn't necessary for any pitch you'd want to play, throughout the normal range of the horn or in the altissimo.

I think that's what I'm doing. When I play "santa claus is coming" Please don't laugh, it starts in open c# and then progresses to the high left hand palm keys but then I have to play in the lower register to get some of the notes like F# and G#. The problem is F# and G# are distinctivly lower in pitch than the higher left hand palm keys so I have to change thier pitch atificially to match. I hope that makes sense.

[Jolle]

I think that's what I'm doing. When I play "santa claus is coming" Please don't laugh, it starts in open c# and then progresses to the high left hand palm keys but then I have to play in the lower register to get some of the notes like F# and G#. The problem is F# and G# are distinctivly lower in pitch than the higher left hand palm keys so I have to change thier pitch atificially to match. I hope that makes sense.
Try it using your octave key instead of your high left hand palm keys. Depending on your sax, they're not the most accurate pitches. That might be the problem as well. What I also learned in the beginning, is that you can change half a note on those palm keys by opening or closing the other palm keys, or the normal (finger) keys for C, B and A. I tend to limit the use of the palm keys for normal tunes, but I'm not a very experienced player either.

Good luck!

[Saxn]

Try it using your octave key instead of your high left hand palm keys. Depending on your sax, they're not the most accurate pitches. That might be the problem as well. What I also learned in the beginning, is that you can change half a note on those palm keys by opening or closing the other palm keys, or the normal (finger) keys for C, B and A. I tend to limit the use of the palm keys for normal tunes, but I'm not a very experienced player either.

Good luck!
Sinebar, I think Jolle's probably right. If you need a fingering chart there's a plenty of 'em available. Here (http://www.amromusic.com/Band_Instruments/Saxophone/fingering_chart2.htm) is a pretty decent one that (I think) is pretty easy to use.
Greg

[Ari]

Sinebar, It seems that what you are describing are "intonation" problems where you and the sax are having a disagreement on where the exact pitch should be. Some horns are more "in tune" than others but almost all saxes require some mild adjustment by the player listening to how in tune he is with his accompaniment.

[gelliot2]

Sinebar,

I'm guessing that you're playing the tune written for a different instrument, so you are running out of notes by the limited range of the sax.

Can you be more specific about the tune you are playing.
Does the tune start on the octave C#? Is it a score written for the saxophone?

[sinebar]

Sinebar,

I'm guessing that you're playing the tune written for a different instrument, so you are running out of notes by the limited range of the sax.

You may be right. The tune is a christmas carol "santa claus is coming to town". I know it's corney but Greg vail does a version of it on tenor that sounds fantastic. So yeah I think I'm running out of notes.

Can you be more specific about the tune you are playing.
Does the tune start on the octave C#? Is it a score written for the saxophone?

As stated above the tune is "santa claus is coming to town" and it starts out on middle C# (all open). I'm using the Greg Vail version off his CD.

[sinebar]

Sinebar,

I'm guessing that you're playing the tune written for a different instrument, so you are running out of notes by the limited range of the sax.

Can you be more specific about the tune you are playing.
Does the tune start on the octave C#? Is it a score written for the saxophone?


I have heard that the sax has a limited range but didn't realize it was limited to songs written for sax. Is that true?

[RickBusarow]

Sinebar, the sax's range is limited in that it's finite, but it's not "limited." What Gelliot was guessing at was that the arrangement you're trying to play is too high for a saxophone.

On the saxophone, you can play any pitch between the b flat below the staff to the f or f# (depending on if your sax has the high F# key) above the staff. If you master your altissimo, you can add more than an octave on to the top of that. You can play any song in which all the notes fall within that range.

I strongly suggest you follow fballatore's suggestion to look at a saxophone fingering chart. Here, use this one (http://www.amromusic.com/Band_Instruments/Saxophone/fingering_chart2.htm).

[sinebar]

Sinebar, the sax's range is limited in that it's finite, but it's not "limited." What Gelliot was guessing at was that the arrangement you're trying to play is too high for a saxophone.

On the saxophone, you can play any pitch between the b flat below the staff to the f or f# (depending on if your sax has the high F# key) above the staff. If you master your altissimo, you can add more than an octave on to the top of that. You can play any song in which all the notes fall within that range.

I strongly suggest you follow fballatore's suggestion to look at a saxophone fingering chart. Here, use this one (http://www.amromusic.com/Band_Instruments/Saxophone/fingering_chart2.htm).

I assume you mean between low B flat and high F or F#. My sax is a Yamaha YTS23 so I'm sure it has a high F# key. The song I'm playing was also played by Greg Vail on tenor sax so I don't think it's too high for sax unless Greg is doing somthing different like altissimo. The song starts on middle C# and maybe I should be playing on low C#.

[jazzbluescat]

Is the saxophone missing keys?

It's most likely got all the keys. You just gotta know where to look. Sometimes it takes a while to find all of them though. e.g. Concert Ab major was a real bear to find, almost took forever. I think it was hiding from me....the little devil.


:);)

[sinebar]

Is the saxophone missing keys?

It's most likely got all the keys. You just gotta know where to look. Sometimes it takes a while to find all of them though. e.g. Concert Ab major was a real bear to find, almost took forever. I think it was hiding from me....the little devil.


:);)

I found all the keys. in fact I can play the tune but the issue I am having is that some parts of the tune sound low as compared to other parts because I am using middle C#, high E, high D, low F# and low G# which contrast with the high note keys. It just doesn't sound right even though the basic notes are right.

[supra97rx7]

i'm pretty sure YTS23 doesn't have a high(high) F# key

[HUTMO]

I think the real question needs to be....

Why the H##L are you playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town in March? How about When Irish Eyes are Smiling or maybe The Easter Bunny Song?

Seriously...it sounds as if you are playing in a key that was not written for the voicing of a sax.

Good Luck and keep on practicing no matter what tune you are playing.

HUTMO

[fballatore]

I found all the keys. in fact I can play the tune but the issue I am having is that some parts of the tune sound low as compared to other parts because I am using middle C#, high E, high D, low F# and low G# which contrast with the high note keys. It just doesn't sound right even though the basic notes are right.

OK, now I'm really confused. Are you saying that the low F# and G# don't sound like middle F# and G# just an octave apart? If so, it sounds to me like you need to get a tuner to check things out.

Frank

[RickBusarow]

Sine, are you familiar with the octave key? That's the key by your left thumb. Pressing it will raise the pitch of the horn by one octave.

https://uwp.courses.wisconsin.edu/pages/personal/265422/untitled.bmp

Are these the pitches you're trying to play? These would be called middle C#, middle E, middle D, middle F#, and high G#. All but that C# are fingered the same as the lower pitches, except you should add the octave key (e.g. for a middle E, finger low E and then press the key located by your left thumb). You should not be using the palm keys until you get one octave higher than the D pictured above (and then, you'll need to use the octave key).

Again, I'd recommend consulting a fingering chart.

[sinebar]

OK, now I'm really confused. Are you saying that the low F# and G# don't sound like middle F# and G# just an octave apart? If so, it sounds to me like you need to get a tuner to check things out.

Frank

No, I am saying that the high F,E and D left hand palm keys are distinctly higher than say F# which is fingered as RH 123 LH 5. On some tunes these notes don't sound right together so I have to play the F# an octive higher using emoucher. Otherwise you have some notes that are really high and the others really low and it just doesn't sound right. That being said it just seems like the sax needs an extra octive range. I bought a trumpet on ebay and I understand that it has a 3 octive range also. So I'm guessing I will run into the same problem. That is if it really is a problem.

[danyo]

you can just hit the octave key on the sax to put the f# from F#1 to F#2, also u can get more then three octaves on the trumpet. can u tell us which lines the notes ur trying to play are on. the f/e/d should be 3rdspace above/3 leger line/ 4th space above the treble cleff where the f# should be first space in the treble cleff. I think u might be playing the f e and d an octave up b/c i didnt see those in music for two or three years.

[sinebar]

you can just hit the octave key on the sax to put the f# from F#1 to F#2, also u can get more then three octaves on the trumpet. can u tell us which lines the notes ur trying to play are on. the f/e/d should be 3rdspace above/3 leger line/ 4th space above the treble cleff where the f# should be first space in the treble cleff. I think u might be playing the f e and d an octave up b/c i didnt see those in music for two or three years.

I really don't have any idea. I play by ear.

[Jolle]

No, I am saying that the high F,E and D left hand palm keys are distinctly higher than say F# which is fingered as RH 123 LH 5. On some tunes these notes don't sound right together so I have to play the F# an octive higher using emoucher. Otherwise you have some notes that are really high and the others really low and it just doesn't sound right. That being said it just seems like the sax needs an extra octive range. I bought a trumpet on ebay and I understand that it has a 3 octive range also. So I'm guessing I will run into the same problem. That is if it really is a problem.
What about the octave key (the one on the back of your instrument, right above your left thumb)? You use it when playing the F# for example ? When so, does it still sound distinctively lower than the left hand keys played without the octave key?

[Agent27]

No, I am saying that the high F,E and D left hand palm keys are distinctly higher than say F# which is fingered as RH 123 LH 5.

I hope that's a misprint and you don't have you hands mixed up. Middle F# shold be LH 123 | RH 2

It's kind of confusing because assuming this is all in the middle register you shouldn't be using the palm keys at all.

[Pinnman]

If Agent27 is right, then it should be noted that the palm keys are an octave higher.

Like other posters, I am wondering about the octave key.

There are three Fs on a sax, not two.

I must say, sinebar, you must now hold the record for the numbe of people you have confounded. I think you need someone to sit with you.

Playing by ear is fine, but so too is the ability to read notes.

[sinebar]

I hope that's a misprint and you don't have you hands mixed up. Middle F# shold be LH 123 | RH 2

It's kind of confusing because assuming this is all in the middle register you shouldn't be using the palm keys at all.

Yeah I wrote it backwards. Sorry!

[sinebar]

I hope that's a misprint and you don't have you hands mixed up. Middle F# shold be LH 123 | RH 2

It's kind of confusing because assuming this is all in the middle register you shouldn't be using the palm keys at all.

I have to use the palm keys on this particular song because it starts out on middle C# which is all open. The only other C# I can find on the fingering charts is a low C# which is too low or a middle C# with octive key which is too high. See what I mean? Either the notes or too low or too high. Nothing in between using the keys alone with out some modification of the note.

[sinebar]

If Agent27 is right, then it should be noted that the palm keys are an octave higher.

Like other posters, I am wondering about the octave key.

There are three Fs on a sax, not two.

I must say, sinebar, you must now hold the record for the numbe of people you have confounded. I think you need someone to sit with you.

Playing by ear is fine, but so too is the ability to read notes.

I know how to read notes. Just don't read music. Sorry for all the confusion. It's really hard to explain somthing by written word only. Lets just close this topic and forget about it. After all I'm new to the sax and that's the real problem. When I'm better this will probably resolve itself.

[RickBusarow]

Sinebar, http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=280546&postcount=24.
Sine, are you familiar with the octave key? That's the key by your left thumb. Pressing it will raise the pitch of the horn by one octave.

https://uwp.courses.wisconsin.edu/pages/personal/265422/untitled.bmp

Are these the pitches you're trying to play? These would be called middle C#, middle E, middle D, middle F#, and high G#. All but that C# are fingered the same as the lower pitches, except you should add the octave key (e.g. for a middle E, finger low E and then press the key located by your left thumb). You should not be using the palm keys until you get one octave higher than the D pictured above (and then, you'll need to use the octave key).

Again, I'd recommend consulting a fingering chart.

[sinebar]

Sinebar, http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=280546&postcount=24.

Ok, I think the problem I'm running into is the fact that the sax only has a 2 and one half octive range normally. As stated in articles I've read this is a limiting factor unless one can squeeze out more octives with emoucher. In which case it can go up to about 4 and one half for a tenor. Of course a beginner like me can't do that yet so I'm stuck with 2 and one half octives and that sucks on some songs. I can get only one octive above most of the lower notes which helps but it is usually a very high octive. I've heard some players get like 8 octives from a low B flat. I can barely get one. But I'm a beginner.

[Agent27]

Even a beginner should be able to get more than one ocave out.

You're right, it's hard to convey in words what's going on. My advice is to go find a real saxophone player in person and he'll be able to see/hear what's going on and tell you exactly what's going on.

[sinebar]

Even a beginner should be able to get more than one ocave out.

You're right, it's hard to convey in words what's going on. My advice is to go find a real saxophone player in person and he'll be able to see/hear what's going on and tell you exactly what's going on.

When I rented the horn, a Yamaha YTS-23, it was new in the case and never been played. It still had the cork stops under the keys for shipping. So I know for a fact that it was not setup or checked for leaks etc. I just wonder if it has leaks and needs to be adjusted?

[RickBusarow]

Yamaha has a reputation for playability out of the box. Chances are the horn's just fine.

Could you please answer my questions about which pitches you're trying to play, and whether you use the octave key? Are the pitches I gave above the ones which you're trying to play? If so, even a beginner should be able to play them easily while using the correct fingerings.

[sinebar]

Yamaha has a reputation for playability out of the box. Chances are the horn's just fine.

Could you please answer my questions about which pitches you're trying to play, and whether you use the octave key? Are the pitches I gave above the ones which you're trying to play? If so, even a beginner should be able to play them easily while using the correct fingerings.

I'm starting out on open C# and from there I use the LH palm keys E flat and I think D. I also use F# 123 5 and G#123 and LH spatula, A 12 and B 1. I don't use the octive key at all because I can get the G#, F#,A and B octives with emboucher.

[Carl H.]

I think part of the problem is your perception of the mechanics of the sax. While the palm keys will go higher than an open C#, technically the next note above open C#:treble: :space3: # is played by using the octave key with left hand 123 and right hand 123 :treble: :line4: , not using palm D.

If you can give us a general region where you are located I am sure we could direct you to someone whom you can meet face to face and is willing to help you out.

(edited for misuse of "who")

[sinebar]

Yamaha has a reputation for playability out of the box. Chances are the horn's just fine.

Could you please answer my questions about which pitches you're trying to play, and whether you use the octave key? Are the pitches I gave above the ones which you're trying to play? If so, even a beginner should be able to play them easily while using the correct fingerings.

Well one thing I may doing wrong is playing the LH palm keys with no other key. I see in the fingering chart that these keys are played all with the octive key and for high E and high F the use of the RH high E key + the octive key is used. I have been just playing them individually but they seem to sound good like that.

[Jolle]

I'm starting out on open C# and from there I use the LH palm keys E flat and I think D. I also use F# 123 5 and G#123 and LH spatula, A 12 and B 1. I don't use the octive key at all because I can get the G#, F#,A and B octives with emboucher.
My advice : start using the octave key!

In fact you should be able to play every note from two octaves without adjusting your embouchure. That's why they put the octave key on the instrument in the first place.

Working with embouchure doesn't necesserally makes the tone go up a full octave. It is often a quint as well (at least, I think it's a quint). Off course your "F#" and "G#" will sound too low in that case. You're simply not playing F# or G#.

Good luck with the practice.

[MitchP]

I had an adult beginner at one point who did this exact same thing for months before he took lessons. Sinebar, get a teacher now. It was a drag for both of us since he learned so many things incorrectly and trying re-learn them correctly was very frustrating. It's great we have SOTW, but nothing beats a real person showing you how to play.

[sinebar]

I had an adult beginner at one point who did this exact same thing for months before he took lessons. Sinebar, get a teacher now. It was a drag for both of us since he learned so many things incorrectly and trying re-learn them correctly was very frustrating. It's great we have SOTW, but nothing beats a real person showing you how to play.

Yeah I'm thinking about doing that. I can see I'm using keys inapropriately. If I had a some good DVDs with a sax player showing the basics that would help tremendously I think.

[Carl H.]

NOTHING beats a good teacher. Spending a few dollars in the early stages for maximum benefit is a much better value than buying many DVD's of unknkown value.

[Agent27]

While it's possibly to play in the upper octave just using the embouchure, it's not a good idea. Your embouchure is suppose to remain relatively constant. Pinching to get the notes in the upper octave out is a BAD habit. Leave the embouchure alone and let the octave key do the work for you, that's what it's there for.

[sinebar]

While it's possibly to play in the upper octave just using the embouchure, it's not a good idea. Your embouchure is suppose to remain relatively constant. Pinching to get the notes in the upper octave out is a BAD habit. Leave the embouchure alone and let the octave key do the work for you, that's what it's there for.

Hmm I didn't know that. So it's NEVER appropriate to use embouchure for getting higher octives?

[RickBusarow]

Yeah, Sine - don't use the palm keys, and don't abstain from using the octave key. You're supposed to.

[sinebar]

Yeah, Sine - don't use the palm keys, and don't abstain from using the octave key. You're supposed to.

I have an audio file of a sax player getting like 8 octives from keyed low B flat. How the heck did he do that? Certainly not with just the octive key?

[Carl H.]

This would be a good question to ask a teacher.

It is done with the overtone series- the same series which all the brass instruments are based on. It is a more advanced technique which benefits greatly in tone production and as an introduction to altissimo. There is a book called top tones for saxophone which goes into great detail on how to do this properly. I spent many months in college battling through this book. Highly recommended for all players.

[RickBusarow]

Hmm I didn't know that. So it's NEVER appropriate to use embouchure for getting higher octives?In short, no - it's not.

Long answer - you use your embouchure to get higher pitches in the altissimo register - but NEVER for the lower registers, until you're ready for exercises like those in the Rascher book Carl mentioned. Just use the octave key.I have an audio file of a sax player getting like 8 octives from keyed low B flat. How the heck did he do that? Certainly not with just the octive key?Well, I seriously doubt it's actually 8 octaves - but that doesn't matter.

For every note at middle D (:line4:) or higher, you should use the octave key. The saxophone is designed that way. Finger that D just as you would the low D (:space0:), except add the octave key. Do not use the palm keys for middle D, Eb, E, or F. This is how you're meant to play each pitch up to the C# above the staff (two ledger lines above the staff) - by simply adding the octave key to the fingerings you'd use for the notes an octave lower.

After that high C# comes high D - and for this you use the first palm key, plus the octave key. High D#/Eb is accomplished by adding the second palm key (still with the octave key). High E is accomplished by adding the top right hand side key (still with the octave key). Finally, high F is accomplished by adding the last palm key, while still depressing the octave key.

Altissimo pitches utilize a very complicated set of fingerings which don't ever make any sense to the beginner, and they require a sophisticated control of the embouchure. At this point, you should really concentrate on learning the 2 1/2 octaves of "normal" register.

[MitchP]

The other book that is good (off topic somewhat) is David Liebman's "How to Develop a Personal Saxophone Sound". He goes through ideas related to Joseph Allard's teaching. Also, "The Art of Saxophone Playing" is helpful.
These, others and a good teacher and you'll be on your way. I wish the internet existed when I started playing in 1972.

[sinebar]

In short, no - it's not.

Long answer - you use your embouchure to get higher pitches in the altissimo register - but NEVER for the lower registers, until you're ready for exercises like those in the Rascher book Carl mentioned. Just use the octave key.Well, I seriously doubt it's actually 8 octaves - but that doesn't matter.

For every note at middle D (:line4:) or higher, you should use the octave key. The saxophone is designed that way. Finger that D just as you would the low D (:space0:), except add the octave key. Do not use the palm keys for middle D, Eb, E, or F. This is how you're meant to play each pitch up to the C# above the staff (two ledger lines above the staff) - by simply adding the octave key to the fingerings you'd use for the notes an octave lower.

After that high C# comes high D - and for this you use the first palm key, plus the octave key. High D#/Eb is accomplished by adding the second palm key (still with the octave key). High E is accomplished by adding the top right hand side key (still with the octave key). Finally, high F is accomplished by adding the last palm key, while still depressing the octave key.

Altissimo pitches utilize a very complicated set of fingerings which don't ever make any sense to the beginner, and they require a sophisticated control of the embouchure. At this point, you should really concentrate on learning the 2 1/2 octaves of "normal" register.

Thanks for all the help. I think this may have been an important intervention for me.

[JL]

Of course a beginner like me can't do that yet so I'm stuck with 2 and one half octives and that sucks on some songs.....

I think this statement got lost in all the discussion of fingering and using the octave key. The fact is, 95% of all written tunes can be played within those 2 1/2 octaves. Some classical pieces are written into the altissimo range, but most standard tunes are not. That doesn't mean you should restrict yourself and never learn or use altissimo, but it's not necessary for playing tunes. In some cases you have to change to a different key to put a tune in the right area for the sax, but most tunes do not span more than a couple of octaves.

[sinebar]

I think this statement got lost in all the discussion of fingering and using the octave key. The fact is, 95% of all written tunes can be played within those 2 1/2 octaves. Some classical pieces are written into the altissimo range, but most standard tunes are not. That doesn't mean you should restrict yourself and never learn or use altissimo, but it's not necessary for playing tunes. In some cases you have to change to a different key to put a tune in the right area for the sax, but most tunes do not span more than a couple of octaves.

Well I wasn't aware of that. I saw a quote somewhere stating that the 2 and one half octive range limit of the saxophone was unwelcome news to musicians. I took that the wrong way I guess. Thanks for clearing that up.

[JL]

I think it's worth noting that the great Charlie Parker rarely ventured into the altissimo range. Almost all that fantastic music he made fell in the 2 1/2 octave range of the sax. Of course if anyone can play half as well as Bird, they won't need the altissimo. I, OTOH, need to hit some screaming high notes now and then to wake up the audience!

[Pinnman]

The best advice given so far is, get a teacher. If this is not an option, then a beginner's book - which, BTW, will not include altissimo, thankfully - would be best. Try Ravencroft's Complete saxophone Player.

The rest of this thread has proved to be a complete waste of time for us all.

[Jolle]

The rest of this thread has proved to be a complete waste of time for us all.
Not for sinebar I presume. And I thought thàt was the point in a beginner forum. :D

Any other questions sinebar, just ask. I'll be happy to waste some more time on you ;)

[sinebar]

Not for sinebar I presume. And I thought thàt was the point in a beginner forum. :D

Any other questions sinebar, just ask. I'll be happy to waste some more time on you ;)

Thanks

[JL]

Not for sinebar I presume. And I thought thàt was the point in a beginner forum. :D

Any other questions sinebar, just ask. I'll be happy to waste some more time on you ;)

I agree, we're just trying to help a guy out. It's very easy to forget how confusing things can be when first learning (even teachers can forget this). Of course it's important to get a teacher, but I'm happy to share what little I know with someone who asks.

[bagpiperjohn]

Howdy,
On one level this forum is about things saxophone...while on another level, and this is also an attraction to me and I would suspect many, many others, this is about people and interactions and interrelations between them. I read these forum topics and threads because I find out about saxophone and people. Sinebar had a problem and it seems to have been solved by interaction, questioning and developing communication. This was a satisfying project to have witnessed; sorry I couldn't have helped though. People who were glad to get on board put separate pieces together and voila, Sinebar is in the know. Personally I found it to be anything but a waste of time. A waste of time is trying to paint negativity over a situation in which there is none to be found save in the eye of the beholder.
Keep the questions coming Sinebar!

Regards,
John