Still happy with the PM's?

[GAS_Wyo]

I am still awaiting the arrival of my PM's. In the meantime, I've been playing alot on my 2 Yamis (bari and sop). I am now thinking about my decisions and wondering if I'm going to love them when they get here. The alto should arrive late next week. Tim said the tenors should ship from Taiwan this week, so I'm thinking 2 weeks more to get it under my fingers. :|

Is everyone still happy with the horns they have received? I've been contacted by a couple of players who are already looking to unload theirs (Like Leon). With mine still on the way, I can't get keep myself from wondering if I made the right decision getting rid of my SA80-II alto and 60's Selmer Bundy. :?

I realize this confusion is exacerbated by continuing to read SOTW daily, but I really want to make sure I have made the right decision. Any thoughts?

[enrico]

hi, i buy a mauriat tenor (no rth) 7 months ago and yes, i'm still happy with it.
I think that in terms of sound quality and intonation, it's difficult be dissapointed with a mauriat.The horn has a very good response in all registers,perfect intonation and centered tone and a very good resonance.
It has a very complex richness of sound,hard to find,even on a new selmer and you can play soft or loud and the horn is very versatile in both fields.
just using different mouthpieces the horn will give you different sound color and almost all the mpcs work well on the mauriat,wich it's not usual with other horns i own.
Don't worry,you choose the right horn. and considering the price,it gets even better.

[Grumps]

With mine still on the way, I can't get keep myself from wondering if I made the right decision getting rid of my SA80-II alto and 60's Selmer Bundy. :?

No. You didn't make the right decision. You got rid of one of the finest models made today (the SA80 II) in exchange for a horn you've never played in reliance upon internet hype. This is not to say that you will not luck out and enjoy what you've ordered sight unseen, but ultimately it was a bad decision. If it were me, and I had to have a PM, I'd cancel the order (if you can) and pick up one of the ones the folks you mentioned are selling second hand.

[Dr G]

No. You didn't make the right decision. You got rid of one of the finest models made today (the SA80 II) in exchange for a horn you've never played in reliance upon internet hype.

Wow, that's harsh! ... but I agree. I, too, have played the SA80 II altos, owned a couple and have several friends that play them as well - for classical as well as combo and contemporary big band jazz. I really don't know why you would even consider selling it. If it needs adjustment, by all means get it to a GOOD technician and dial it in.

Maybe you weren't around for the Steve Goodson/Unison drama but it was a fine example of how wrapped up people can get and perhaps be drawn to making a choice they would not have otherwise considered.

Were you thinking of selling your SAII before you heard of the P.M.s? If so, why? What is your SAII not doing well?

This reminds me of another For Sale item I saw here recently. A SotWer was so enamored with the idea of a Ref 54 horn that he bought a Ref 54 alto because he couldn't afford a Ref 54 tenor. Say what?! :shock: Yeah, that alto is for sale...

Much as Grumps and I don't always agree, he nailed it on this one.

Think again before you sell the SAII. And, if the answer is "Sell the SAII to buy a P.M. based on everyone else's opinion." then think again. Iterate until you come to your senses.

If you still just need to buy something to settle that urge, get a new mouthpiece. ;) I turned my jazzer friend with the SAII onto Ron Coelho a few years ago. I still smile every time I hear Jim rip into a solo with the RPC .090" on that horn. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. :D

[Daktion]

No. You didn't make the right decision. You got rid of one of the finest models made today (the SA80 II) in exchange for a horn you've never played in reliance upon internet hype. This is not to say that you will not luck out and enjoy what you've ordered sight unseen, but ultimately it was a bad decision. If it were me, and I had to have a PM, I'd cancel the order (if you can) and pick up one of the ones the folks you mentioned are selling second hand.

He went to Tim @ Sax Alley to try the PMs if I remember correctly.

Thing is Greg, I'm still very much enjoying my 67R. The thing looks beautitful and sounds just as great. The only thing that is holding it back is that the brand is very new. Some people need that brand recognition and only trusts in tried and true companies. For others, they are willing to risk some $$ on a company in hopes that it can provide whatever they are seeking. It really depends on which side of the boat you're on. I've previously been a yamaha fanatic and has played them exclusively for over 10 years.... Then I joined the forum last year and discovered this new brand. At that time I was also in the market for a new pro level alto so I tested numerous saxes (from yamaha, selmer, JK, B&S) and couldn't settle on anything (had a short stint with a 82z tho). So I decided to give PM a try (heck, the worst case scenario is that I lose out on shipping). I never looked back. Yes, since then I've added a couple Buescher TT altos to my collection and they do play fantastic but I still love my P. It's well built and quite a remarkable horn.

Is it the absolute "best" horn out there? noone knows and frankly, there's no answer to that. Is it a great horn for the $$? heck, yes. The ref54 is double the price of the P. does it play 2x as well? I personally don't think so.... most if not all the comparison reviews on them if pro ref54, suggests that it beats the P. only by alittle bit. Is that little bit worth another $3k? Why do so many people play antigua sops when everyone says that the yani is apparently the best?

If you over hype something, it'll always be hard or impossible to meet your expectations. You went into Tim's with not much to go on and came out buying two horns. This is the hardest time now as you blew some $$ and have nothing to show for it. Just remember the reasons why you bought it and in the mean time... select some pieces so you can play them when they finally come.

[Grumps]

He went to Tim @ Sax Alley to try the PMs if I remember correctly.

Yeah, but to be technical, he never tried the ones he's waiting for.

We all make impulse purchases, and online forums are a great place to feed those impulses. I've taken Ebay gambles before, but I realized going in that they were gambles. Buying a new horn should be different. I'm sure there'll be a good return policy should GAS_Wyo not like his horns. Just not everyone is that lucky.

[GAS_Wyo]

Yes, I did go to Sax Alley and A/B the 67R against the SA80II. Both horns had an awesome, but different sound. Just like the 66R, the 67R has an awesome low end!

Grumps points out the thing that's been bothering me...I didn't test the horn I will get. Tim and I have pretty much been in contact since I visited him and I believe I will receive the alto next week. Since I am in a position to afford it, I might keep the SA80II for a little while longer just to find out if the 67R stands up over the next 6 months.

However, I have no doubt that I made the right choice on the 66R. It's way darker than the Bundy/Selmer; the Bundy is beat up from my days lugging it to school from 5th grade through college. I've also played it a lot in the past 5 years. However, one comment from a fellow player gave me the urge to get a new pro level horn a couple of years ago. He said "Wow, that's a bright sounding horn!" Since then I've tried mouthpieces and reeds to darken the sound with no satisfaction, so I'm getting a new one.

The ultimate "buyer's remorse" has come lately as I've been playing the Bundy more and more, thinking "is the Mauriat still going to allow me to peel paint like this horn?" As I've found, there are some situations when the paint peeler is needed to cut through the rest of the band. The first time I play it in practice I'll be able to tell if I made the right decision(s) or not.

[Morry]

deleted by poster

[Chris S]

I've had my alto for over a year and am still quite happy with it.

If your horn doesn't so well for you when it arrives, Tim will adjust it until it's exactly how you want. Would I sell a SAII to get a PM? If I wasn't playing the Selmer... sure. If it was my main horn... I'd probably keep the Selmer long enough to make sure that I was getting a feel for the P.

At any rate, my horn and I are quite happy together, except that it hogs the blankets.

Chris S

[Leon]

Is everyone still happy with the horns they have received? I've been contacted by a couple of players who are already looking to unload theirs (Like Leon).

Leon here, hoping to set the record straight.

"Unload" is an inaccurate description that I take offense to because it implies that I had no respect for this instrument. I had and continue to have a lot of respect for this horn, but it was an impulse buy and turned out to be not what I needed at this time. More on that shortly.

First, if I had had no buyer for this horn, I would not have been discouraged because keeping it as a second horn would not have been a unattractive prospect. But as it was I had no difficulty selling this instrument, and received several emails regarding it, and some local players were also considering it and probably would have bought it had it not sold so quickly to a member of this forum as a result of a Marketplace ad. This is hardly the description of an instrument that is "unloaded".

Regarding the instrument itself - I am, whether I like it or not, a Selmer convert. I used to love vintage Conn's, Buescher's, any big bore horn and the only modern horn I really loved was the Borgani Jubilee, a vintage copy of sorts. That is one of the reasons why I gave this horn a shot. But for reasons too complicated and extraneous to include here, a couple of years ago I ended up with a Mark VI, and didn't particulary like it any better than the aforementioned horns, but after a couple of years ended up hearing and playing with the more focused Mark VI sound. If you are looking for the smoky dark spread sound of a vintage Martin, which many have compared the Mauriat to, then this horn might be for you. If you are looking for a second, backup tenor to your main axe, and want something that offers a different color from, say, a Selmer, this might be for you. If you are looking or need, as I have learned, a horn that could substitute for your Selmer, you might be better off with a Yamaha or a B&S, which is what I ended up with.

So it's just a matter of what you want and what you need. I wanted a horn that was dark and fun to play and much different from my Mark VI, but I learned that I NEEDED a horn that was close to the VI for working situations. The Mauriat was definitely a great sound, but not mine, it had for me better ergnomics a great bottom and easy altissimo, it felt strong, was met with respect by my repair tech (who lightened the action), and I had a lot of fun with it during the brief time I had it, and if I could have three horns I'd of kept it AND the B&S as a backup to my Mark VI but I could not.

I'd like to think maybe someday I might be able to get one inexpensively on ebay, but from the way the wind is blowing it appears these might go up in price rather than down.

By the way, some of you who are dubious about these horns, for example Dr. G. who I know likes Borgani, might be surprised it the opportunity presents itself to play one.

[swormke]

Greg, first I want to say Go Camels! -- Hump Hard 8-). I grew up in Gillette, lived there for 27 years, and graduated from CCHS so I bleed purple as I am sure you do too. But, then I got tired of the wind and cold and moved south to Colorado, actually only 15 minutes from Tim's shop.

I have a PMST-66 and really love it, I am just returning to the sax after a 15 year lay off, and taking lessons from a Doctoral student in Jazz Studies at CU Boulder. The first day I walked in with the horn and he heard it he was amazed at the sound and how loud it was. He said I was the only student he had had on the first day that he could hear over himself. We played with some mouthpieces and reeds to get the most "junk" in the sound and now I get regular comments from him and others on how great the horn sounds. BTW we settled on a Link Metal NY w/ Java reeds.

As for the Alto I have never played one, but had the opportunity to hear one last week in a Big Band setting with the CU Jazz band in a concert with guest drummer John Von Ohlen. I had no trouble hearing the PM over the other two altos in the band, and the solo he played on it was much louder and fuller than the other altos.

What I did notice though (there was actually a tenor soloist who played a PM as well) is that the sound of the alto was not nearly as complex as the tenor. It just seemed like it had something missing in comparison. I know this is a hard thing to compare because the setups, styles, and abilities are different for each player, but the alto was just missing something.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I am sure you will be able to stand out in your band no problem because they are loud, but getting the sound you want may take some experimentation. Hang in there though, it is just a bit of buyers remorse because you don't have them in your hands yet. I am sure you will be happy with the tenor, and probably that alto too. But if not Tim will do right by you and make it play how you want. Besides, you got the tenor and the alto for less than a Mark VI :D .

[GAS_Wyo]

Swormke,
Good to hear from another Camel...we just moved over from Cody so I'm still having a tough time not being a Bronc, but I'm sure I'll change as my daughter and sons graduate here. You know how much Gillette sports is LOVED throughout the rest of the state! (NOT!) ;)

Also good to hear that the PM alto stands out. Do you think a great setup would really help add more color/complexity to the horn's sound? I'll start another post on this subject to find out. What setup on 67?

You're right about buyer's remorse. I'm sure I'll love it once it gets here, because it sounded better/different from the SA80-II with my old Selmer C*. I didn't try it with my Link True Tone, but the tip on that piece is just a little too open for me. I've always thought that the Selmer Paris' were the ultimate horns until I started messing with other horns. This opened my eyes to "other possibilities".

[gary]

Greg, as long as you are in a position to do it...it's mentioned above and I read it several years ago here and turned out to be excellent advice, and that was, "don't get rid of your old horn until you've really played your new one in and are convinced that's what you want".

I had a Conn 10M and then bought a YTS 82Z to use as my primary, but kept the 10M until I was sure I could feel comfortable selling it. Eventually, I sold the 10M but interestingly, it was to pay off the "Z" so I could sell it and buy a Keilwerth which is, and I believe will remain for some time, my primary axe.

[Keith Ridenhour]

I recorded myself playing a benefit gig for Fat Tuesday at a local restaurant last night. I still don't sound like my idol brecker (never will but the drive never stops) but I had the fattest, darkest with an edge tone I've ever had. I didn't sound like a "weekender". I'm using a Berg 130/1 and with a weak reed I can get a bright/funk tone and with a darker reed , say a rico 2.5 its plenty dark. But my point is that my tone is as complex as the Conns, and The Martins I've owned (Mk 6s also). Its not the end all, be all horn but for 2K its a good value. I was tempted by a BnS that I played in Las Vegas last year for about that amount of money but it wasn't alot better than my YTS 62 I had at the time and when I trialed my P against the Yamaha the YTS was on ebay the next day. Anyway, hope this helps. I've got lots of sound clips of various horns on my webpage. K

[tomsch]

Keith - You get a great tone on the P! More focus and darker than your Martin but with a resonance that works. I

[MikeCa]

I would strongly suggest hanging onto your Selmer as well. You definitely won't be able to replace for what you are going to sell it for in the eventuality that you aren't as happy as you hope with the new horn.

[Keith Ridenhour]

Tom, I just taped myself playing some 1235 major runs up and down the horn with a met and after some overtone work even a Hemke 2 sounds good on this berg 130/1. I can't remember liking my tone so much but I do have to do the overtone work or it isn't as resonant. Now , back to work on my tech. K (I was tempted to send you the Mp3 but I think the major comment would be, slower and more accurate!! )

[Joe Jazz]

Nice shirt Keith!:)

[Keith Ridenhour]

Joe, are you the same guy that lived in the east bay and wanted me to buy your Ref 54 years ago??? Wish I'd jumped then? (I'm happy with the P but it's 75% of the Refs tone at 50% of the price. ) K

[Joe Jazz]

Nope, that wasn't me......

[saxmanglen]

Joe Jazz,

Tell us about your avatar......The guy holding the notebook looks so familiar for some reason.

[Joe Jazz]

That's me(familiar notebook guy in the Yamaha shirt)with Euge Groove on the Warren Hill Smooth Jazz Cruise in January. I remember jokingly telling my wife beforehand "Wow, I'll probably be able to tell people I was in the men's room with Warren Hill!" Closest I got to that was being in the men's room with former NBA star and now stellar smooth jazz bass player Wayman Tisdale.........wow, he's one big dude......:D. Maybe you've seen me peeing in your pool?

[saxmanglen]

That's me(familiar notebook guy in the Yamaha shirt) Maybe you've seen me peeing in your pool?

LOL:D Now I just tell people that ask "Do you mind if I smoke?"..... "As long as you don't mind if I fart".

Anyway, I have a business contact that's pretty much a twin to your pic. Took me a bit to figure out who it was.

[Morry]

I have a business contact that's pretty much a twin to your pic. Took me a bit to figure out who it was.

You must work for the National Circus Freaks Union. :-)

[saxmanglen]

You must work for the National Circus Freaks Union. :-)

Oh....MAN! My secrets exposed!!!:D :D

[Joe Jazz]

Hey! Being a card-carrying National Circus Freak is highly underated!;)

[GAS_Wyo]

Circus freaks -- I just got my PMXA-67R this evening. I think the UPS guy thought I was going to kiss him! :D

Went over the horn with a fine tooth comb, assembled it, wet a few reeds, got out all 3 of my alto mpcs and went to town on the horn. This thing is awesome! :D :D :D I tried it with my standard Selmer C*, then a no-name piece that came with my SA80-II, then with the Otto Link HR 8. WOW! The Link finally sings for me. I instantly got exactly the sound I was searching for, but couldn't find for the last 3 years. The dark lacquer is beautiful and those pearls just make me want to take photos of the horn instead of play it. I'll have to adjust to how easily the notes from D1 down speak. These notes flow out of the horn effortlessly.

Someone posted that the alto tone has less character than the tenor...I recorded and compared to my SA80-II -- I disagree (respectfully, of course). My sound just took a leap from hobbiest to serious player! But I'm not quitting my day job just yet ;)

[Joe Jazz]

You really have to hand it to these people, they are taking several good ideas from other makers and offering them on their saxes...like the LASAX burnished brass look, the Selmer Reference burnt antiqued lacquer finish, and the Keilwerth nickel silver finish........plus what most folks seem to think is a top notch sound......I'm thinking they are going to be BIG, assuming they don't mess up of course.....anyone know where I can buy some stock?:shock:

[Daktion]

You really have to hand it to these people, they are taking several good ideas from other makers and offering them on their saxes...like the LASAX burnished brass look, the Selmer Reference burnt antiqued lacquer finish, and the Keilwerth nickel silver finish........plus what most folks seem to think is a top notch sound......I'm thinking they are going to be BIG, assuming they don't mess up of course.....anyone know where I can buy some stock?:shock:

that's exactly what I'm hoping too.... I love my 67R and really, the PM has something here... I just hope they don't mess it up. The finish is really really nice, I just took my 67R to the local Long and Mcquade (it is our walmart for music here in Canada)... anyways, the sales there got really confused that a horn this economical can sport such a great sound... they're too used to saying... if you want something better, you'll have to pay more.

[Joe Jazz]

Doesn't Chuck Norris own part of that(Lone Wolf McQuaid;) )?
PM may just turn the sax world on its ear and make made in Taiwan a respectable phrase......

[Joe Jazz]

Well, there was just a PM alto on ebay that didn't get a single bid even though the bidding started at $1,200 with no reserve. Not a good sign....:shock:

[Morry]

I think a PM might slip by on ebay without being noticed, as many folks have searches set up looking for the major 4.

[Daktion]

PM is still a relatively unknown horn. The bulk of the buyers don't even know they exist yet.... especially the mom and pop buyers who only know a couple brands. Hopefully in a few years, the name will be more well known and response to it increases.

[Chris S]

$1200 seems a bit steep to me also.... I couldn't even get $900 out of my very nice (prime serial #) Aristocrat. I think I paid $1600 or so for my PM new, and with most of the newer, non Big Four horns... they're much like a car.... they depreciate ASAP. I think that if the seller had to proper audience (say.... this forum maybe), s/he could reasonably expect somewhere in the neighboorhood of $1k. Probably slightly less though. From a buyer's perspective, why shouldn't I pay $400 more and get a brand new one? Furthermore, since I know this horn is (at most) a few years old.... what's wrong with it? When trying to sell, you need to see things from the buyer's POV.

Best,
Chris S

[jacobeid]

Well, there was just a PM alto on ebay that didn't get a single bid even though the bidding started at $1,200 with no reserve. Not a good sign....:shock:

If you check ebay again, you'll see the same sax was relisted the day after the first one didn't sell. It ended up selling for $1,500 ;)

[Randall]

jaco...it's called the SOTW effect8-)

[GAS_Wyo]

I'm even more impressed with the PM's now that I have my tenor also! They look so cool that the bass player in our band considered taking up the sax again (he played in HS).

I have improved my tone 100% using these horns. I'm also looking to get the Super Jazz VI necks for both horns. This alto has a completely different tone compared to my Selmer SA80-II. I guess I'm finding out I really didn't like the "Selmer sound".

The PMXA can sound really classical (and I consider the Selmer to be a great classical horn), or really scream if I blow completely through the horn with an edgy mouthpiece. I just never got that satisfaction with the Selmer.

Yes, I'm still too enthusiastic about these horns to be objective, but they fit the bill for me! I don't think I'll regret not having bought the YTS-875 or Ref 36...but I'll let you know again as the months go by. :D

[Swingtone]

I'm tempted, but for me it's just a little too hard to get past the "made in Taiwan" thing (and the resulting resale value thing). PGaylord summed it up perfectly recently in his sound clip comparison thread when he asked: which sax cries out to you and makes you want to practice it? For me, there has to be that vintage mystique there--a knowledge that the horn was hand-crafted back in a time when jazz was still being played as new hip music in clubs in NYC and in cities across America (not as an historical curiosity). But I guess that's why I only buy vintage. I mean, a little over 10 years ago, ebay didn't exist. Why mess with the new stuff when there's a treasure trove of great old horns from people's attics available for the taking? I just saw a silver plated Chu alto sell for $400 the other day--unbelieveable. It's one of the few things that I really like about the Internet, but it can become addictive (kind of like this Forum). :D

[DukoffHollywood]

Yeah I think I'm the one that got the PM alto for $1500.