self-taught vs. teacher

[chuckster]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum so this topic may have been asked before. I started playing Tenor sax about four months ago. I think I am doing pretty good. I have been playing music most of my life. I play banjo, guitar, mandolin, and a little violin. I can also read music. I've been teaching myself to play sax using various books, and some instructional videos. I can play most of my major scales, a few pentatonic scales, and blues scales. My emboucher is getting better ( I don't squeak much anymore ). My question is this......how many sax players out there are self taught? I know that a teacher can be very important, but on the other hand there are many famous musicians who were self taught. What's your theory? I'd be curious to hear from anyone who is self taught that plays or has played as well as someone who had formal lessons.

[Dog Pants]

I'm lucky enough to have a fantastic teacher. With a good teacher, you will avoid learning bad habits and progress in a more orderly fashion. That said, one of the most important lessons a good teacher will give you, is how to listen to your practice and playing, and subsequently, how to teach yourself.
Get the best teacher you can afford!!!

[supra97rx7]

i had a teacher for 3 months in 7th grade.

probably taught me all the basics of what i do now

IMO, if anything, self teaching when starting isn't the smartest thing, but it seems logical to have a teacher as you start and if you must, drop the teacher later.

[Gandalfe]

I don't understand this desire to go it on your own. Life's too short and sax playing too important to leave to chance. Your odds of becoming a decent player increase geometrically with a good instructor.

If it's a money thang, try to find a play buddy. Good luck to you Chuckster.

[Kritavi]

Gandalfe is right. Find a teacher you like. Do what he says, work hard and you will never regret it. Goof around and you probably will regret it.

[sax13]

i started playing sax in fourth grade and only got a teacher january of my senior year of high school and he prepared me for my college audition so that could show you how much a teacher helps. if you are looking for teachers you should try asking a professer at a local college.

[Lazy3oy]

I started on the sax in 7th grade (last year) I joined band against my will, but hell it's pretty fun. Most of us just learned out of our Essential Elements book, the band director just gave us music, told us stuff to work on etc.. I was more self taught because I don't really think my band director helped much, she didn't really care about people's bad habits (I got myself out of throat tounging just this year, we have a new band director)

[rob]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum so this topic may have been asked before. I started playing Tenor sax about four months ago. I think I am doing pretty good. ..
I'd be curious to hear from anyone who is self taught that plays or has played as well as someone who had formal lessons.

The argument from a jazz point of view is about individuality. I suppose.
But all the individuality in the world is no use if it cannot find expression. But by using someone else to provide those tools, are you compromising your own individuality? It's an artistic dilemma...

As someone with a mule-headed resistance to teaching I can definitely testify that learning on your own makes you
1. timid in front of an audience.
2. unsure about your tone.
3. unable to criticise yourself with any real substance. So you don't bother.

[Saxn]

Well, I hate to go against the grain here, but I guess whether or not you use a teacher depends on what kind of person you are and what you financial situation is. I personally never had a teacher. Yes, I've had to correct some bad habits along the way and sometimes I did have to learn in leaps, jumps, and crawls... but bottom line was (1) THERE WERE NO TEACHERS in the area I grew up, and (2) my folks couldn't have afforded it if there were. I had to work that much harder, but it was worth it in the end.

Like so many other things on this forum I believe it boils down to what the individual needs and what they can get. To each their own.

Greg

[saxymoose]

I pretty much taught myself how to play the saxophone ( I switched from clarinet in the 8th grade and am now in the 11th). In my sophomore year I made both classical and jazz all state without the aid of a teacher. About a year ago however, I started taking lessons with the sax professor at the university here. I started taking lessons because I want to make a career out of sax playing and thought it would be beneficial. I don't think that one necisarrily needs to take private lessons to be an accomplished player, but it doesn't hurt :)

[jimmitch]

I taught myself how to play the sax I have played the guitar all my life I also teach the guitar I took guitar lessons from age 10 to age 20 then I taught myself to play concert classical guitar. I think if you know how to play and read music you can master any instrument the books and DVD's out their are great. I don't think kids should learn on their own they need a good teacher and many adults need a teacher. If you feel good about you progress keep doing what works for you.

[BlueNote]

Teachers guide you. YOU teach yourself it.

[renegade]

I enrolled in a music school for sax playing, among others. The course was supposed to last for 12 sessions, but after I finished my sixth, I felt I could go on my own. From thereon, I learned how to improve my sound. At any rate, I think having a good teacher is necessary especially for a first timer.

[rob]

Let's face it.
Compared to most other instruments, the sax is relatively easy to pick up and just play.

Is it the easiest? I dunno. Anyway, I think that deceives us into thinking we can get away without being led.

And sax players [tend to] do hate to be led. Temperamentally.

Is that true?

[Face Ache Mike]

Teachers guide you. YOU teach yourself it.

Excellent quote. I feel whats important is having some kind of yardstick to compare yourself against. You`ll never know whats right and whats not otherwise. One could learn to play without a teacher but how would you know if youre doing it right without someone to hear and give feedback?

In my opinion, so long as you can be as strict to yourself as a teacher would be and follow some kind of guidance, be it from books, videos, cds, whatever, you will achieve a level you will be happy with. However, if you want to become a professional player in a band or concert you need to reach that same standard and I cant imagine anyone doing that without a teacher that has appropriate experience.

[Dave dix]

I have been playing pro for 30+ years and have never had a lesson yet but a teacher can also check your emboucher , breathing correctly etc
Dave

[Saxn]

I have been playing pro for 30+ years and have never had a lesson yet but a teacher can also check your emboucher , breathing correctly etc
Dave

That was exactly my point. I f I have any regrets about not having lessons, that would be it... having to UNlearn embouchure and breath support.

[rob]

You have to ask though, how many blues guitarists had tutors?

So what's the difference?

[Face Ache Mike]

I wonder if its different now to, say 30 years ago, though? Was back then more like being a pioneer and nearly everyone was learning whereas today there are more people to learn from? Just a thought.

[Three Storms]

You have to ask though, how many blues guitarists had tutors?

So what's the difference?


The sax is not a straight-forward with the order of the notes as a guitar is. I play both, and a guitar is infinitely easier to learn than a sax is. I know guitar to the point to where I can play anything by ear, but with a sax, I needed help, and a lot of it.

[BlueNote]

The only instrument that comes to mind that you wouldn't NEED formal training to get good at is drum kit (be it jazz, funk, etc). All you need to know is what rudiments are, practice them with a metronome, make sure you're hand technique is good, and just play with others to get to a higher level. And of course lots of listening.

One of my favorite jazz drummers, Bill Stewert, is self-taught, and he sounds awesome.

[chuckster]

wow, great input guys,,,,,,Thanks for your views.

[Dog Pants]

Teachers guide you. YOU teach yourself it.

A teacher can show you what to do and correct mistakes before they become ingrained, but the actual DOING is up to you. Yes, you have to learn to be your own greatest fan and your own worst critic. You must develop the skill of knowing which of these two to heed, or ignore, at any given time.
There does seem to be an alarming trend here however, toward the idea that a teacher is not necessary. To use the argument that the old blues guitarists were largely self taught, is somewhat misleading. The jazz of today, and yes even modern blues is, in many cases, far more "sophisticated" than it was back then. The music has evolved melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.
There are now a gazillion books on how to play jazz/blues. Some are very good, many are expensive dunny paper. The self taught player is often in danger of information overload. It is here that the teacher can help the student plot a course through this maze.
Too, there persists the idea that practice makes perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. The self taught player often practices the same mistake over and over, ingraining a bad habit. A good teacher can catch these bad habits before they become ingrained.
I have the utmost respect for the many players out there that are forced, for one reason or another, to go it alone. It is with respect that I urge those players to get in a lesson or "check up" with a good teacher, as often as circumstances permit.

[rob]

A teacher can show you what to do and correct mistakes before they become ingrained, but the actual DOING is up to you. Yes, you have to learn to be your own greatest fan and your own worst critic. You must develop the skill of knowing which of these two to heed, or ignore, at any given time.
There does seem to be an alarming trend here however, toward the idea that a teacher is not necessary. To use the argument that the old blues guitarists were largely self taught, is somewhat misleading. The jazz of today, and yes even modern blues is, in many cases, far more "sophisticated" than it was back then. The music has evolved melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.
There are now a gazillion books on how to play jazz/blues. Some are very good, many are expensive dunny paper. The self taught player is often in danger of information overload. It is here that the teacher can help the student plot a course through this maze.
Too, there persists the idea that practice makes perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. The self taught player often practices the same mistake over and over, ingraining a bad habit. A good teacher can catch these bad habits before they become ingrained.
I have the utmost respect for the many players out there that are forced, for one reason or another, to go it alone. It is with respect that I urge those players to get in a lesson or "check up" with a good teacher, as often as circumstances permit.

Because I know everything you say is true.
But.
When you say "The jazz of today, and yes even modern blues is, in many cases, far more "sophisticated" than it was back then. The music has evolved melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. "
Does that necessarily mean that the music is therefore better, or more to the point, have musicians retained their individuality?

Do blues musicians take lessons now? Or did they always have someone, in fact? Where does cultural background end and tutelage begin?

[hgiles]

The trouble with beginning learning is that you don't know what you don't know.

The best teacher is in your living room (recordings). Proving ground is the bandstand.

If you cannot afford a teacher then get a couple of good theory books. You will know immediately what you do not know. Then go out and sit in with a few bands -- this will point out what you need to know right now. Go home, shed, study, sit in again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Saxn]

The only instrument that comes to mind that you wouldn't NEED formal training to get good at is drum kit (be it jazz, funk, etc).

If you have an acceptable practice regimen, stick to it, and absorb ALL the information that is so easily obtainable there is no reason that a motivated and focused cat with good ears should have a problem assimilating the modern jazz styles or any other playing style. Trust me.;)

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be helpful, expedient, or necessary for some (if not most) people to have a teacher, but for a few 'reverse engineering' types it's easier to take any kind of learning from the top down, and that is by no means how any teacher of any discipline I've run across teaches.

[Ruediger Kramer]

The trouble with beginning learning is that you don't know what you don't know.

one time the week i take a lesson and my teacher corrects my faults - and i practise every day app. 2-4 hours (and i hear a lot of music)... this way it´s getting better and better.

[Dog Pants]

G'day Rob,
No, I don't think todays music is inherently "better." In fact, I would argue that the very "over-sophistication," and abstract nature of much modern (post swing era) jazz, is a major reason for the decline in its popularity. Jazz musicians seem to be artists more than entertainers now. That's neither here nor thre, it's just the way it is. (flame away, but please join the back of the queue.)
I don't believe the music is more to the point than it was. The undeniable fact, is that historically, jazz connected with more people 50/60 years ago than it does today. Perhaps the very search for individuality, has led to jazz musicians creating great "works of art," that the general public can no longer relate to? And yet, in the golden era of jazz, the players managed to connect with the audience and would anyone dare say that their efforts had less artistic merit?
If I'm reading you right Rob, I'd agree that there was always a tutelage of sorts. I believe that the decline of the jazz culture, the clubs, big bands, etc has led to seismic shift, in the way the music is learned and hence played. The common complaint of older players, "that the young players today all learn the same thing, from the same books and all sound the same," seems paradoxical considering that the "holy grail," seems to be an "individual" sound. To my ear, much of the modern playing sounds "academic." Technically brilliant, but academic and lacking in any sort of resonance with the lives of the everyman.
The overused Bird quote, "if you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn," makes me wonder? Is attending a jazz college "living it?"
OK enough of my "ill informed, ill considered, rant," flame away! :)

[altoblues]

the hippest thing said here so far was Dog Pants' remark about information overload, and how a teacher can weed through this for the student.

Amen.

as result of academic jazz education of all stripes, there has never before been so many books, videos, play alongs and websites.. all of which contain advice on scales, patterns, theory etc, some of which contradicts other books, videos etc ..

it seems to be forgotten that all of that knowledge is well and good, but you don't need it to get to the playing and improvising. You get to it while you're playing and improvising, to clarify what you've done, and later on to get you to things that you're ear can't hear etc. You must have the understanding, but you don't have to have the understanding before the doing ... which is the sad misconception most of the time it seems.

I'm not saying there is no place for theory, god knows I know it and am glad of it. I've just had far too many students who thought at the beginning that either:
A) you have to know all of the scales, numbers, patterns before you can start to work on the music
or
B) that a knowledge of the scales, numbers, patterns was the same as a knowledge of the music (being able to play)

Both are wrong.

And DP is wholly correct - the learning curve for jazz (and yes for blues and almost all other musics) is much steeper than it was, and a good teacher can help to make the journey far less painful.

The best learning is done when the student teaches him / herself ... the only real learning is done this way (imho), but having a good teacher is essential for pointing out the best route down the path.

...or so it has seemed to me, being on both sides of the issue at once (both a student, and a teacher).

[rob]

Isn't it great how an innocent question about teaching can turn into a full blooded examination of the nature of musical expression?

Thats jazz.

I suppose that without the university of the speakeasies, jazz has had to rely on a degree of formal teaching. Heroin probably played a part in that alienation too.

And it must never be forgotten, amongst all this talk of Errol Garner and the like, that many of the great innovators of jazz were extremely formally trained.

Is this a Creole Vs African divide?

[Saxn]

Yeah the Sultans, they play CREOLE! (de DAH da daaah...)

Wait... what??

[rob]

Pet theory.
Won't bore you.

[Saxn]

Ah c'mon! Maybe in the Forum Lounge? Always interested to hear new takes on old stuff.

[Batiste]

Why does art seem to be the only field where people actually think there's some sort of extra kudos for being self taught.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the finish product. If you can achieve that faster and more efficiently with a teacher, than why not?

No one is going to cut you any slack if you go to a jam session and follow your mediorce playing with the following statement; "well, you know I"m self taught", nor will they give you stripes just because you studied at Julliard.

You don't leave out of the movie theather saying "hey, that film wasn't bad for a self taught director"...either it was good or it sucked..

Don't get caught up in this self taught vs. teacher nonsense and lose track of the ultimate goal...to sound good and play very well....mastering your axe.

[Saxn]

Agreed. I think that's pretty much been the gist of the thread (for the most part) all along.

[jimmitch]

If it sounds good it is good. As far as the guitar being easier then the sax to play by ear try picking out some Segovia All instruments take many years to even get close to master As it's been said no one cares how you get their they only care about how it sounds.

[Baje]

I learned sax by buying an old $50 tenor, locking myself in the bedroom so the others couldn't get at me and just figuring it out. No teacher, no books, no nothing. It was only some years later I found out some of my fingerings were really alternates.

Have no regrets. Am not the greatest but have had many many happy years playing in bands. We listened to tunes and worked out the melody, harmonies and chords. No music sheets. The theory came much later.

That said, I would go for a teacher if you can. My only reservations about formal training are:
1. You get to rely heavily on reading rather than on your ear. I play with highly trained musicians who sound great but they can't play Baa Baa Black Sheep without a music sheet in front of them. That doesn't impress me. If I hear it I can play it.
2. Trained musicians in my opinion can lose some of their individuality of approach, tone etc.

Have two friends, one played right through school, Berkelee graduate, nice tone, improvising wizard. Next one took up sax maybe in his 40s, felt he didn't have time for formal lessons, doesn't read well or play in many keys, nice big tenor tone, popular character.

Both much in demand but if anything the untrained guy has a bigger following.

[altoblues]

My only reservations about formal training are:
1. You get to rely heavily on reading rather than on your ear. I play with highly trained musicians who sound great but they can't play Baa Baa Black Sheep without a music sheet in front of them. That doesn't impress me. If I hear it I can play it.
2. Trained musicians in my opinion can lose some of their individuality of approach, tone etc.




This depends entirely on the kind of teacher you get. I was blessed to have be taught by jazz players who made me use my ear for (almost) everything ... they were teaching me to be an improvisor. I can read, but it's not my forte. For me, this worked out great - for people with other ambitions, it would be limiting. In turn, I too teach my students how to use their ear, how to play in different keys, how to figure out what they hear etc. You need to realize that there are a myriad of teaching styles ... have as good an idea of what your priorities are as you can when you start out. Pick a teacher accordingly.

[rob]

Ah c'mon! Maybe in the Forum Lounge? Always interested to hear new takes on old stuff.

OK, but don't jump on my ***.

It's a take, nothing more, on where 'Swing' came from.

After Reconstruction was betrayed and Jim Crow introduced in N.Orleans, relatively untrained black African ex-slaves found themselves working alongside classically traained Creole musicians. And maybe saying yes when they meant no to the question: "Can you read?". Getting the job depended on it.

In that situation, mistakes happen, and the only way to avoid getting fired is to bluff it. Play the extra, late note as if you meant it, which means a minute, but crucial interference with the square rhythm.

It was the musical moment which embodied, in miniature, all the improvisation needed by the slaves to survive, and therefore created another necessary means of expression fro the culture. Which helkped to create the balck culture of the C20.

Making mistakes made jazz - or rather, covering them up.

It's a blank proposition, so please insert all the necessary qualifiers and modifiers to taste. It just seemed like the sort of thing which had to happen at some time. And which would have had its own influence, the history of the talking drums and the diversity african rhythmic patterns notwithstanding.

[GAS_Wyo]

I've been "formally trained", but not for the sax...the bassoon. I love to have a great chart in front of me to do some really tight quartet/trio playing. But I have a great group of musicians I get to play with at church who all do their thing in C, G, D, whatever key. I have enjoyed the last 6 months playing with them more than any other muscial experience I've had. What makes it so enjoyable is the simple fact that I'm finally in a band that appreciates my improvisation. We practice on Tuesday evening and early Sunday morning, then hit the stage for a praise/worship Jam Session. After 2 practices, I pretty much just close my eyes after reading the key the piece is written in, and start playing along. I know the music well enough to just play what I feel.

My point??? It's taken a lifetime of playing and listening to other artists to get to the point where I can do a decent job at improvising. I think if I had just picked up my axe and started playing, I'd have been much better as a MUSICIAN. Knowing the theory is good, but the 'mistakes' the slaves were making came to be perceived as a musical style...some still enjoy it! I think we need to learn enough theory to make music, then study to find out why it sounds good, put it down in print or whatever media is available, then spread it to others who will further improve it. That's what teachers do! Without the teachers, the music wouldn't be able to advance/evolve as quickly as it did in the 20th century.

(is this a circular argument?)

[Saxn]

Making mistakes made jazz - or rather, covering them up.

I think that is still the case in a lot od situations. 'Twas one of the first rules I learned from an old keyboard man. Make it SOUND like you meant it!

Hmmm... interesting. Rob, have you read anything that would lead you to this conclusion?

[Saxn]

I think that is still the case in a lot od situations.

Yeah, that was a deliberate typo, BTW... it's an obscure dialect we use around here when improvising conversation. :D

[rob]

I think that is still the case in a lot od situations. 'Twas one of the first rules I learned from an old keyboard man. Make it SOUND like you meant it!

Hmmm... interesting. Rob, have you read anything that would lead you to this conclusion?

No, I just make lots and lots of mistakes, and bludgeon through them on the back of the rhythm. Also, if you make a mistake, then repeat it, it's no longer a mistake. Mostly. Rhythm is everything.

So 'swinging' a note becomes a function of that hesitation or over-eagerness. Of uncertaintly, in fact. And if one thing is for certain, it was the life of a musician in New Orleans in the 1890's. Especially when thrown in among highly trained crealoe musicians, who until quite recently, had owned black slaves of their own and been playing in their own Opera houses.

But uncertaintly and insecurity in one form or other have always been a mainstream of jazz. The Cold War jazz of Sonny Rollins and Miles Davis is frozen with insecurity and existential dread.

What's needed is a diary of a black musician of that time. But what are ther chances?