How Do You Become A Good Jazz Player??

[MHS Sax 4 Life]

I wuz listenin to this channel called BET Jazz this week and I've seen a lot of excellent jazz players on there. Ex. Kirk Whalum, Gerald Albright, Kenny G, Boney James. All of my favorites. I just wanna know how do you become a better jazz player. Ya'll help a brotha out. lol 8)

[tledjazz]

Two basic things you have to do. 1. Have a command of your instrument. In a nutshell that means being able to play all scales (maj, min, aug, dim, whole tone, chrom, pent etc.) Fluently from memory across the entire range of your instrument. From each scale degree, in various intervals (3rd's 4th's 5th's 6th's 7th's) triads and chords, understanding of chord-scale relationships and theory.

You must also develop an ear for the "dialect" of the music by doing lots of listening. Identify a few artists you really like and listen to as many recordings as you can get your hands on. If they're still living make sure you go hear them live. There's no substitute for feeling the energy of a live performance. Transcriptions are a good way to study and "ingest" an artist's ideas. I don't like to spend too much time on any one cat. The idea is taking swatches and sewing them together into your own unique sound "quilt".

Most importantly, Jazz is like driving or making love. you can read books all day but the only way to get good is to actually do it. Hopefully there are some jam sessions where you live. Start going and sitting in, if you haven't already. Even if all you feel comfortable playing is Bb blues, PLAY! If you know some musicians you can organize your own sets. If you're a horn player it's a good idea to befriend a rhythm player-a pianist, bassist or drummer. get together with them on a Sunday afternoon and run some tunes out of the book.

It may sound like a lot, but it really is a lifetime journey. If you start down the path, and stick with it, I think you will begin to see the results you desire. From one bruthah to another, hope this helps. Peace.

[saxy_rich]

Well, thats a big question, but one that is very important.

Like tledjazz said, you have to do your busy work. Scales, chords, modes, and how it all relates to each other. Music is like math. And if you can remember a time in match class when your sitting there, and your learning a new subject, and youre doing the problems with the right mechanics, but not exactly sure what it truly is your doing or why your doing it?... and then, bam!!!! all of a sudden everything youve been doing just snaps in. Jazz and all music is like that. Just do your busy work. Learning chords, patterns, and all that... well "jazz" :wink

Second... Listen to the masters! after youve listened to 'em to the point where you think youve done about 10 times more than you need to, thats probably how much you need :) ... There are so many young players out there today that just memorize licks out of a book, learn their modes and scales, and play a bunch of mechanical, senseless bull... You have to feel it. Find your own personal relationship with jazz. Its all different to different people. Your own personal experiences will determine how you play, and embrace that. Make the music your own.

and yes, jazz is very similar to making love. People will think youre good if you play, nice, predictable stuff, and what everybody has grown to expect. But if you go out and do your own creative thing... people will REALLY remember you :wink:

[Ritchie]

If you consider the players you named jazz players, you ain't heard nothing yet. They are rather players in the idiom of the easy marketable "Smooth Jazz" corner, which is more instrumental pop music than jazz. Before I start another ranting argument about favourite styles and which one is the best and the "true", let me come to my point: jazz is a very diverse idiom. There is a huge development from New Orleans Jazz in the beginning of th 20th century until today. Listen to different jazz styles, listen to masters from the past. Then put all you've listend together in a creative - new - way. Technique and mechanical skills on the instrument do not hurt, but what makes a really good jazz player is that you are able to put your feelings into what you play. Try not to run up and down the scales and play as many cool licks as you know, but try to say something with each solo you play.

[tubbycub]

Can anyone offer some tips on practicising scales (major, minor, dim, dom....etc). I find it really difficult to memorize and play them all. Is it really necessary to know all these scales before one can start improvizing?

By the way, when someone in jazz mentions minor, does he/she refers to the natural, harmonic or the melodic minor?

Any input would be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Razzy]

Jazz minor usually refers to dorian minor, the second mode of the major scale.

I would learn all those scales, in all 12 keys, were I you, before I really jump into improvising. It's really helpful when you get into tricky keys and changes to know those scales. Make sure they're committed to memory.

Those guys you listed are smooth jazz players. Most of the advice offered here will not help you prepare for that idiom... just a hunch :roll:

[saxskillz]

Tuddy,

Minor in jazz refers to the Dorian Mode most of the time.

Dorian mode is the 2nd degree of the scale. For example in C, the dorian mode is D. So spelling the scale out is D E F G A B C D.

Thats usually what works.

Peace.

[chrispotterfanatic]

yeah, i think those people are mostly smooth, so i dunno man, i started out listening to kenny, and dave koz, and then once my taste in jazz changed i started listening to trane, and chris potter, rollins, parker etc....

so yeah, umm.... its cool you like smooth jazz.... but dont fight your internal desire to move on....

i suggest getting some JOHN COLTRANE CD's... i went from koz to trane in like a week.... and i didnt hate trane from listening to smooth all the time...... but hey man... if your a player, do you play sax???

but if you do play sax, and are seriously wanting to play jazz in the JAZZ idiom, i do noit consider kenny, and koz jazz, it is more pop.....

but if you wanna get into the kind of jazz that most cats play, i would take a step out of the elevator (figuratively speaking), and try exploring trane, parker etc. but if you prefer playing smooth, go for it, i have no prob with smooth jazz, i just will never play it again....

good luck

get some chris potter CD's

have a good day,
chrispotterfanatic

[Koutetsu]

I think everyone should own at least one Coltrane CD and/or A Love Supreme. Although, going from Kenny G to Coltrane would be like throwing a 2 year old into the deep end of a pool with no floaties.

[chrispotterfanatic]

i did it, and i totally loved trane, started listening to his influences, and who influenced him, and whos influenced BY him. that was also the time i also started loathing smooth jazz :roll:

[chrispotterfanatic]

hey, MHS 4 Life..... i am a sophomore high school tenor player in the southeast side of texas..... dont know if i could challenge you or whatever like it says on your profile... but i would be interested to see where you placed in all region jazz/ all state jazz... which as you know is already done and over with for this year.

Dont wanna brag but ill give you my rankings, so itll be fair... i am very modest, so dont get the wrong idea

i placed first tenor saxophone in the Region 9 Jazz Ensemble, and i placed 1st Tenor Saxophone in the Texas All-State Jazz Ensemble

and if you dont believe me go to www.tmea.org and look it up for yourself :D

chrispotterfanatic

[Razzy]

Quite impressive, Texas is highly competitive. I wouldn't expect to win that challege 8) All I can claim is 4th chair wind ensemble in my region and bari sax in the jazz band... in general the saxophonists here are insanely good, especially classical. Wow. Any state anywhere near us doesn't have the level fo classical sax that goes on here... and then go to Texas, and the jazzers are incredible. Insteresting though that the 1st alto's band director appears to be his father...

[Koutetsu]

You think Texas is a challenge, try Kansas City (NEKMEA). I placed 3rd (alternate), but that's still pretty good.

[Tenorsaxer]

I'd have to agree with some of the above posts. Kenny G is the pits IMHO.

Thats a different topic of discussion thought.

Listen to guys like Michael Brecker, Count Basie, Nat King Cole, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie... the list goes on. Listen to these guys, learn all of your major scales, get the theory down and start pickin up on jazz method books. This will be even easier with a private instructor.

[rcwjd]

Hello All

Just a thought on improvisation from somebody that is a lifetime away from high school and formal study. The question was asked a bit earlier in this thread whether one had to be proficient in all of the scales, altered chords, etc., to improvise? NO.

One can start practicing improvisation with the most basic amount of scalar knowledge - i.e. a year or two on the instrument. For example, take something like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. How simple can you get? Don't worry about chord changes, modulations, tri-tone substitutions, or any of the other more sophisticated stuff that educational jazz musicians like to worry about. Just start blowing variations on that little tune's melody line that are close enough to the original melody so that someone could tell what tune your are improvising over. Give yourself some time and don't make it into a major practice exercise. Just relax and have fun with it. Will you sound like Coltrante or [name your favorite artist]? No. But, after awhile, it will start sounding cooler and cooler. Without knowing it, you will start adding blues scales, dominant 7ths, altered chords, and other such without even thinking about it because your ear is telling you what it likes. Add some rhythmic variations - syncopation, 4 against 3, etc., by just listening to and keeping what you like and moving on from the rest.

When you decide to get a bit more formal, start simple with pentatonic scales. Then you only have to worry about five scale tones and various combinations, and you will avoid any "avoid" notes until you decide on your own that you want not to avoid them because you can make them sound good as passing tones or whatever. For example, take a simple progression like the following 4 bar progression and play around with the pentatonic scales that sound good : Dm/G7/CM/CM. You might be surprised to find that one pentatonic scale - 5 notes - can be used to play over that entire progression and sound pretty cool.

Jazz has a foundation in theory, but an even greater foundation in just plain "listening" or "hearing what is good sounding." Just a thought.

[ZenBen]

This is in response to the question about minor in jazz. When a song is in minor, it is the same minor as when classical music is in minor. Minor in jazz is not synonimous with the Dorian Mode. A song in minor is not in the Dorian Mode. The 'jazz minor' scale is the same as the melodic minor, except that you don't lower the 6th and 7th on the way down. The C minor jazz scale is C D Eb F G A B C. I hope this clarifies minor a bit.

[JL]

Zenben, I think you're partly right about this, but not entirely. Your definition of melodic minor is correct. Whether it's jazz or not, when a tune is said to be in "minor," this implies that a minor third is used on the tonic chord, which is essentially what you're saying. But it does not necessarily mean melodic minor only. Many jazz tunes are based on the dorian mode ("Impressions" by Coltrane, to take a famous example). And within that dorian mode, all sorts of substitutions can be made, including the maj 7th, which would make it melodic minor, at least temporarily. b6, b7, b2, and/or b5 tones can be employed, making it harmonic minor, phrygian, or locrian, etc. Many tunes are based on harmonic minor, although that scale is not used in it's "pure" form too much. A lot of this is just semantics---a way to describe what is happening, but it's best not to overgeneralize too much.

[Razzy]

Yea, I was just speaking from what I see the most. Solo breaks are often in dorian mode, but as it was said, almost any substitution can be made on that, and other tunes happen in the other modes. Dorian just seems to be the most common.

[TJS]

The thing that helped me the most when learning to play jazz was to do a lot of transcription. Take entire solos of the artists you like and learn every note, rhythm, inflection, articulation, etc. Then, when you can play the entire solo like the recording, write it out with the changes over the measures and check out what is happening.

In this great book by Eddie Harris, The Intervallistic Concept, he says that you should play anything that comes to mind for 30 minutes a day. And, you should buy 2 records of 20 of your favorite artists on your instrument. Then one artists at a time, learn each of their solos on the record. A very interesting book, by the way.

[GaryLee]

I agree with rcwjd. You do not need to know all of the scales to play jazz and improvise.
I started out by just doing variations on the main melody. Then progressed to using all of the notes in the major/minor key of the tune.
You will soon figure out what notes to avoid and which sound good.
I still don't know all of the scales in all of the modes. For me the biggest limitation is I have a hard time doing a solo on a tune I don't know with a lot of unfamiliar chords. Or worse yet I end up with a solo during the bridge or right after a key change where the melody doesn't help much.
Bottom line - learning scales will make you a better soloist and allow you to handle new tunes more easily but it is not a prerequisite for getting started.
I would highly recommend playing with a group (big band, not small combo) as often as possible. By playing the 2nd part to a strong lead player you can learn a lot about phrasing and avoid doing solos until you are ready.

[barelytone]

I believe we are not answering MHS sax for lifes' question, that rather specifically tells us what kind of Jazz he or she wants help with. One suggestion would be to check out sheetmusicplus.com, and "Kenny G: Best Of Kenny G", a play along for learning this guys songs. Why give him judgment about what he likes? Poll: if MHS... had mentioned that he played a Yamaha, how many of you guys would have told him to get a Selmer....?

[betelsax]

When I practice, I employ an indefatigable accompaniest: my computer. I play along with mp3s and MIDIs for hours.

And one of the best tools for analyzing a solo is a program called "The Great Slowdowner." It can take any mp3 and slow it down to almost nothing without changing the pitch.

Now you can finally figure out what Sidney was doing all that time! :D

[Aceman]

where do u get that program? "The Great Slowdowner" ? [/quote]

[betelsax]

The Great Slow Downer is really the Amazing Slow Downer. Sorry. You can get it here:

http://www.ronimusic.com/

[jazaddict]

While I guess I agree that learning to improvise can start with modifying melodies, I'd submit that a simultaneous regimen of scales will help the development go faster. Simple tunes in all 12 keys is also very important for getting your ear attached to your horn.

I'd add Hungarian Minor to the list also (b3, b6, maj7).

[alsdiego]

I'd add Slobovian minor: b1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7 :lol:

[TH]

.....Have a command of your instrument. In a nutshell that means being able to play all scales (maj, min, aug, dim, whole tone, chrom, pent etc.) Fluently from memory across the entire range of your instrument. From each scale degree, in various intervals (3rd's 4th's 5th's 6th's 7th's) triads and chords, understanding of chord-scale relationships and theory.

Ok my question, is there a book(s) which contains everything that's mentioned above? i.e. Every scale known to man, triads, and chords etc.

Cheers 8) ,

THx

[chrispotterfanatic]

yeah matt marantz , he goes to the dallas HSPVA i go to the one in houston.... but believe me man matt is so freakin killin,... oh god... man he sounds alot like brecker, and parker, and chris potter, and kenny garrett, but smooth....

his dad doesnt have anything to with him being all state,... he is just really really really really really *sigh* good

[chrispotterfanatic]

I'd add Slobovian minor: b1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7

whoever wrote that needs to slap themselves five thousand times,....

THAT IS A SUPER LOCRIAN SCALE!!!!!!

also called DIMINISHED WHOLE TONE!!!!
(because the first half is the first 5 notes of a half whole diminished scale, and the last half is a whole tone scale)..... theory man,... theory
FOOLS!!!!! UGH

[david044058]

To become a better jazz artist is to never give up on what ur doing. if your playing a really hard song, dont give up, just practice it and ull get it.yuo also have to bilive you can do it...........peace out

[HeavyWeather77]

Hey chrispotterfanatic, I don't mean any disrespect, but that's not super locrian... that's a major scale a half step down. :D By the way, if you've been in Texas all-state and such, do you know Clay Pritchard? He's a friend of mine, I go to UNT with him. You might know another friend of mine, Cory Wilson, who went to your high school, he's at school here now also. I heard Marantz is coming here next year too. Man, there are so many good players here, I don't know what the deal with Texas is, but all these dudes are native born and freakishly good... I wouldn't know how that is, I'm from Albuquerque.

[RatBatBlues]

Hey - I had a Eureka moment - a Dim WT/Super Locrian/Altered scale is just the major scale a half-step down, so everything's flat except for the root.

If I start a scale on C#, then play up the C scale, that's an altered scale.

[ZenBen]

Zenben, I think you're partly right about this, but not entirely. Your definition of melodic minor is correct. Whether it's jazz or not, when a tune is said to be in "minor," this implies that a minor third is used on the tonic chord, which is essentially what you're saying. But it does not necessarily mean melodic minor only. Many jazz tunes are based on the dorian mode ("Impressions" by Coltrane, to take a famous example). And within that dorian mode, all sorts of substitutions can be made, including the maj 7th, which would make it melodic minor, at least temporarily. b6, b7, b2, and/or b5 tones can be employed, making it harmonic minor, phrygian, or locrian, etc. Many tunes are based on harmonic minor, although that scale is not used in it's "pure" form too much. A lot of this is just semantics---a way to describe what is happening, but it's best not to overgeneralize too much.

Hey JL, how's this for a late rebuttal? BTW, it is fully understood that we are debating semantics :D

I never meant to imply (nor do I think that i did) that all minor tunes are referenced to the melodic minor scale. I was just trying to diferentiate between 'minor' and 'dorian,' as the two are different, and to clarify what the jazz minor scale is.

Absolutely, when you are playing Impressions you can use any and all substitutions that you want, but the song is a modal one in the 'dorian' mode. And that is different from being in minor.

[JL]

Hey Zenben, right you are. I just tuned back into this thread after about two months also---must be a zen moment. I hear ya and I didn't really think you were implying that, just wanted to clarify in case someone misread what you said.

Good insight RatBatBlues! Another way to arrive at the altered scale is to play the seventh mode of a melodic minor scale. So in your example of C#alt, play a D mel minor scale starting on C#. There're lots of ways to look at this stuff.

[Unsaxworthy]

Ok my question, is there a book(s) which contains everything that's mentioned above? i.e. Every scale known to man, triads, and chords etc.



I'm sure there are many. Right now I'm working through "Patterns for Jazz" by Jerry Coker and three or four other guys.

It started out with major triads. Then 6th chords. Then 7th chords. Then 9th chords. Then major scales.

So far it's helped me learn quite a bit in a short time.

I recommend it.

-DannyOKC

[alsdiego]

Following up on JL's point, a really good way to learn scale substitutions is a "go there, do that" approach. If you know all of your major, minor and dominant scales, you can substitute using this approach. For example, to play a phrygian scale over a Cmin7 chord, you "go to" the flatted sixth (or sharp fifth) of the Cmin7 scale (Ab), and play a major scale from there:

Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G

Starting from C, the phrygian scale looks like this:

C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb


While this sounds really hard, with practice it becomes easy to do the transposition on the fly.

The key is to REALLY learn the major, minor and dominant scales... you should be able to play any scale in any key, starting from any point in the scale. All of this needs to be automatic before the "go there do that" approach begins to really pay dividends.

Hope this helps,

Al

[JL]

Yes, I like Al's approach. In the example he gives, I prefer to think of it this way:

Phrygian is the third mode of a maj scale, so C phrygian is simply an Ab maj scale played from the third (C).

I also find it reasonable to think of phrygian as a maj scale with b2, b3, b6 and b7, or as Dorian with a b2 & b6, etc. etc. As Al says learn the major, minor, & dominant scales really well and everything else falls into place.

[alsdiego]

JL raises another good point... there are several ways to think about the same thing. It's really helpful to look at it in a way that's easiest for you to remember, and that can vary by individuals. My "flatted sixth" is JL's "down a major third". Same result. Whatever works for you is best. If you start with a G- chord, the phrygian scale starts on the flatted sixth (Eb), or down a major third (Eb)...... EXACTLY the same thing!!!!!

Al