Useable reeds per box

[Ritchie]

We had something like this in the old forum, but with the poll function the results can be presented much better.

So the question is:

How many reeds in a box of ten of your favourite brand and make are useable either right away or with just a little bit of care?

Average of different horn sizes, please.

[LBAjazz]

Rico Royal tenor sax reeds; I get 8 or 9 per box but I work on them.Usually 2 or 3 REALLY good ones.

[Gandar]

Rico Royal tenor sax reeds; I get 8 or 9 per box but I work on them.Usually 2 or 3 REALLY good ones.

Then your Rico Royals for Tenor are different than mine :) I got like 5-8 playable reeds, 1-3 really good ones and always few miserable reeds. Though I normally play full box, just use bad ones only at home. I have been thinking to chance to Vandoren, I have heard they have more great reeds in a box than Rico Royal.

[twowheels]

Does anybody have positive/negative/both experiences with the Reed Wizard for adjusting reeds that are not completely up to par? And if you have used the Reed Wizard, were you able to make a really BAD reed playable beyond just some minor adjustments to a reed?

[Cameron Wigmore]

I've spent years learning how to shave and sand my reeds. It's something you might want to learn to do. It can save you a lot of grief and $$$. There are some great books that cover the subject, including "The Art Of Saxophone Playing". Learn to shave your reeds and that 3-out-of-10 will become 9-out-of-10. Good luck!
:wink:

[MarkD]

Maybe this could be another poll but, here goes anyways:
"What is the most frequent 'un-useable' aspect of a non-playable reed?"

For me, there are some reeds that just play flat on my set-up.

[Smokey Waters]

I play La Voz mediums. I do start them and some need sanding and I use a humidifier. The last box of reeds I bought was in September of 2002 and they are just now getting a little tired. I was surprised to find that the entire box is playable. I can play any reed in that box on stage. I haven't had that kind of playability since high school.

[WG]

I use Alexander Classiques and I'm spoiled. ALL of the reeds that that I have tried are not only playable, but outstanding.
Tom Alexander you are the best thing that has happened in my 40+ years of sax playing.
I wish I could say that I receive free reeds for my endorsements. But, I don't :oops: .

[woodwindmaster06]

ZZ Tenor Saxophone reeds all reeds work!!

[Joseph Boucher]

I get 100% from a box of Vandoran Trads. I play them all. If I get some that aren't quite up to snuff, I use them just for practice. The good ones are for show.

[shmuelyosef]

The mouthpieces make more difference than the reeds. My custom Vanwie faced Meyer NY plays every reed of every kind, as do all my Morgans. Modern Links and Meyers only play half the reeds.

[Gaijin-san]

I think this whole usable/unusable thing is a bunch of hokum. Mind-games that we play with ourselves. All (or more than 9 out of 10 on average) produce a buzz. That buzz, coupled with the mouthpiece, neck, and saxophone, allow us to produce tones. Hence, they all work. You wanna reshape some reeds, go right ahead. But we could all play every single reed in a box and the audience would never know. It's all in our heads.

[Paulsad]

No I don't agree - some reeds are bloody awful - flat and lifeless and hard work to play no matter what you do to them - others are a different league. Funny how you always get 1-2 that are great though in a box as if the reed makers do it on purpose.
p.s. I use Rico Royales.

[fusionjazzmadman]

I think that there's a huge difference in how sensitive sax players are with reeds. As i can recall i had no problems with reeds until i started playing more seriously and got better. Also i think your setup can be crusial as to wether you can play a reed or not.

[Jeff Foster]

I agree with fusionjazzmadman. Setup makes a huge difference. I played a Brilhart Level Air 6 on alto for 30 years. I loved the sound it gave me when I had a good reed on it. Trouble was, I never seemed to get more than 2 or 3 decent reeds from a box of 10. I always figured the problem was with reed quality. Recently I decided I wanted a little more edge to my tone and bought a Dukoff D7. Suddenly I was getting 7 or 8 usable reeds per box of 10 and most of them are quite good. I had a similar problem on Tenor with my Otto Link Super Tone Master 7. Soon after I switched Alto mouthpieces I decided to shop around for a new Tenor piece and wound up with a Berg Larsen 110/2 M. It's a whole lot more reed friendly than my Otto Link. Can't believe it took me 30 years to figure this out.

[Cameron Wigmore]

Some mouthpiece facings are pickier with reeds than others. There's no really good way to tell - word of mouth and experience will help.
8)

[Vortex]

Another factor is where you keep them and how long. If you keep a box for a few months without playing it, the cane will have time to age and more will be playable.

I recently got screwed because the past week has been really humid, because of the humidity all my vandoran 2's (which i play on a c*, i know, weird combination) play like 1 1/2's, and the humidity has practically destroyed them.

[saxusa]

I play with Rico regulars and use every reed in a box of fifty. I don't sand, file, drill, trim, or work them in any fashion. I simply wet the reed and then play it. Cheap and easy, just like my women. 8)

[Jazzophone]

I can't AFFORD to have anything less than 100% playability (welcome to junior high school)! Right now I use Hemke 3.5s on a Yamaha 4C (tenor), they were free because my band director was "cleaning out" and had apparently no use for them. Otherwise, I use Rico Royals (a little more affordable, usually :D).

[FunkySax]

I use every reed I buy at least for practice. Practicing on bad reed makes you concentrate on opening your throat and applying side pressure even more. Practicing on a hard reed will make you a stronger player and is a good way to build stamina. Playing a really soft reed will do the same thing, but more the finess embouchure muscles.I know I can't back that up with medical facts, it's just something that I think works for me. I don't fight the reed maddness, I just play and always try to stay on top of breaking in reeds like my original instructer taught me 17 yrs ago.

[Tom Goodrick]

When I resumed playing the sax last year after a 20-year lapse, I found a few Rico Royals still 'fresh' in the box in the case although the horn had died a horrible death of decay. I commenced a study of current reeds lasting for about 6 weeks during which I worked with two mouthpieces on a rental and then a new tenor. I settled on the Vandoren V16 as the best for my combination of melodies and jazz. I bought 5 boxes (5 each) to last a while as I got everything else together - emboucher, fingering, thinking, etc. It has been ten months since that order arrived and I am still using box 3 with one of those yet untouched. Every reed has been not just usable but of comparable high quality. I was practicing 4 to 6 hours a day 6 days a week. I have lightened up to 2 hours a day. During each session I mix in other horns as well (trombone and trumpet) as I am working up a general gig book that mixes the horns on lead. I do pay quite a bit of attention to the tone and intonation, frequently using a meter. I was pleasantly surprized at the uniformity. I had been expecting a number of poor reeds from my days with other makes of reeds. But these V16's are very good.

Care of the reeds matters. I soak each reed in oil for 48 hours or more before first use. I work with two or three reeds at a time rotating them. I use a Vandoren plastic reed case that keeps them in good shape. After a week I start soaking each reed in water for 15 minutes before each use.

I used a Yani HR 5 for many months and an Otto Link HR 6 for several months. On the Yani I thought the reeds were wearing out when they squeaked on the high notes (E3+). After switching back exclusively to the Link 6, I have used the same 3 reeds for 8 weeks. I can scream the high notes or play them sweet and pretty with no fuss. I think now those reeds would have lived longer using the Link. I was mashing them a bit on the more closed Yani.

I think most of the trouble many people find with reeds has a cause beyond the reed. There are many complexities in this business of playing the sax.

[Gaijin-san]

Tom, I have about 85 reeds that are of old vintage that are either 4's or 5's (75 of them Rico Orange Box, sealed). I thought these were relatively useless to me as I've been playing my Quatum 8 and my new Jumbo Java A75. I recently slapped a 5 on my old Selmer C* that I've been ignoring of late... and it sang so beautifully (mellow) for soft-spoken, sweet solo melody lines. I don't need to play over anybody when I use this piece, so it works great. They're all players on such a closed piece.

Intonation is more spot on than the other pieces, though my horn is a piece de junk (my eyes were just opened). I got my first chromatic tuner, a Korg from WWBW, for my birthday. I've never owned one before, so I knew of SOME of the "weak" or "off" notes on my Buffet Crampon Evette Taiwanese alto... but I never really knew anything below E1 was 20-30 cents flat or more, and everything above A2 went way sharp. I always knew Eb and C# to be flat, and B to be way way sharp... But I have seen the light! Gotta take my tuner with me now and try some horns, look for a more even scale.

[Riff]

Every reed in every box is usable.
Whether or not you would want to use a particular reed for a performance is another matter.
I can't remember ever finding a reed in any box of reeds that had to be trashed.

Usually there are 2-3 "performance quality" reeds in a box. (I use Rico Royals) By "performance quality" I mean they can be taken to the gig and used immediately without any break-in. The rest work fine for practicing and after they break in I'll use them for gigs also.

What's important to remember is that what you, as a player, hear from your reed is not what your audience hears. I've watched many sax players change reeds on stage with no noticeable difference in their sound. What players are looking for in reeds actually has more to do with how they feel and respond as opposed to how they sound. I use every reed in every box until it stops responding in some way be it low register, high register, altissimo, dynamic, or articulation response

[Riff]

It's interesting to note in this poll that even with all the complaining we hear from sax players about how bad reeds are, most of us use every reed we buy. :?

[OnyxSax]

About 15 years ago, the cane quality got so bad that everyone was complaining about how crappy reeds were. During this time, I learned to make the reed the least significant part of my setup, and learned how to play on reeds that were simply awful. Consequently, almost all the reeds I play on these days work for me.

The big difference I find in reeds is how long they last. Usually the ones that play better out of the box seem to last longer.

[jp3]

I played tenor through high school (mid-60's) then quit playing until recently. I played a Couesenon tenor with the mpc that came with the horn and can't remember a reed that wasn't playable. Seems that everything played until physically damaged.

Now I seem to have the same experience as most of you posting on this thread - usually half the reeds in a box are stuffy or resistant. Rico Royals seem unusually prone to warping to the point that they won't seal.

Has something changed in the quality of cane - or the manufacturing process? Or was I less particular as a kid -especially since I couldn't afford to throw away many reeds that weren't broken.

[Tenorsaxer]

I play Rico Plasticovers and without working on them (which I have absolutely no knowledge of.) I get around 3 or 4 ok ones and out of those three or 4 one or two really nice ones.

Plasticovers are nice because they last and are rather economical. They produce a sound much like a bare cane reed when it is really a plastic coated cane reed.

[Adam]

I just found this thread and am amazed that people are claiming that they can use almost every reed in the box... I find this almost impossible to believe if people really care what they sound like. I just went through a box of Rico bari reeds (10/box) and got not one usable reed (I'm used to getting about 5 out of a box of 25). Actually, there were a few that played, but just not acceptably, and not worth me wasting my time with (I've been down that road, and have found its not worth the headache...). Most players I know would say that 0-5 reeds out of a box of 10 is typical.

The purpose of the reed is too vibrate... The typical problem I have been running into more and more over the years is that the cane is horribly mushy and hardly buzzes at all. It may make a sound, but it is usually dead, and response is unaccepatbly slow. These reeds have the unique ability of being able to have the tip rolled back onto itself (these are bari reeds) without cracking. There is no way a reed that mushy can possibly vibrate correctly. I don't care how much you sand it or play around with it, its still going to be a mushy piece of trash when you are done.

I've been playing for a living now for about 13 years, and I've found half of the mental battle is dealing with reeds and knowing whether its worth the time to work with one or not. You can feel like you are fighting with your horn for weeks or even months, then slap on a reed and suddenly feel like, "oh yeah, this is the way its supposed to work..." and then wonder why you have been banging your head against the wall all that time.

I guess its different for everybody, but unfortunately I'm the type that if my sound isn't right, I don't enjoy playing. I also know a few unbelieveably talented players who have given up playing for as long as a year because they got so fed up with reeds.

[Big Nick]

Adam: Sounds like you need therapy more than reeds. :cry:
I also 'claim' to use every reed from the box (when I'm not using synthetics). Each one might sound a bit different but they all play (varying lifespan though).
I use LaVoz mediums on a tenor Quantum 16 and a baritone Meyer 9 and I think they sound pretty good but I'm perfectly prepared to accept a tone a tad short of pefection. They don't really make that much difference to me and I'm sure nobody else can tell at all.
Have you tried synthetics?

[Ritchie]

I'm one of the guys who use each reed from a box, too, and was interested in who else is doing this, although many people complain about reed quality. That's why I started this poll.

I think 0-5 playable reeds from a box of 10 indicates you have maybe another problem with your setup. I see dealing with imperfections as a part of learning how to play the saxophone. There is more to it than just blowing into the horn and pressing the keys.

[Adam]

Its interesting to see people so polarized on this issue...

I have tried synthetics, and unfortunately, they are not for me. I do find that if I get a decent cane reed, I can get it to last 3-8 weeks of constant playing. I don't believe that my setup is the real issue here since I have run into the same problem with other mouthpieces and other players I know have the same issues with different setups and different horns. A mushy, immature reed is not going to work well on any setup... You may get it to play, but what can you really do with it?

I am of the belief that playing music should not be difficult. When I go to play a gig, I don't want to be thinking about my reeds, mouthpiece or horn. I want to stick the mouthpiece in my mouth and play. I want it to respond quickly, articulate cleanly, be able to go from a whisper to scream, the pitch to be centered and not have the bottom of the horn sound like mush or have the altissimo be thin. Dealing with imperfections is definitely a part of learning how to play saxophone, but knowing where to draw the line when dealing with bad reeds has taken me a lot longer to figure out than any other aspect of playing the horn.

When I lived in New York in the early '90's I had the fortune to study with several real heavy weights... Out of them, Ronnie Cuber was probably my favorite player. He had a table in his apartment with literally a hundred boxes of reeds (he endorses Rico reeds). He gets about 3 reeds out of a box of 25 that he is happy with. Are you going to tell me that the issue here is that he needs to work on playing the saxophone, or is smart enough not to waste his time with a reed that will never respond correctly?

[Big Nick]

Yes.
Just because your idol is paranoid, doesn't mean to say that you should be too.

[Adam]

Uh, OK.... I just gave him as an example of one of many players who feel this way...

And you are who? Maybe you can give Ronnie a few pointers...

[Ritchie]

Adam, did you hear Ronnie Cuber play on one of the 22 of 25 reeds in the box he put aside? I am quite sure you'd still say he sounds great, maybe you'd even hardly be able to tell the difference. My point is simply, the bad reeds are usually not really too bad to play, which does not negate that some reeds are better than others. Endorsement can become a little bizarre at some point, but it is business and not music. Did you ask Ronnie Cuber whether he has a better success rate with other brands? (Maybe he would not tell because of the business side of the equation :wink: )

I share your belief that playing music should not be difficult, but going through several boxes to find the few exceptional reeds does not really sound like not having to worry.

And a last point: you do not really want to tell me that anything like musical greatness or having some reputation comes from equipment or, in this case, from throwing away a sufficient number of reeds, do you? We'll find examples among the saxophone greats for almost each and everything.

[Big Nick]

Thanks, Ritchie, I couldn't have put it better myself.

As for me - I'm nobody - I don't have an endorsement deal, much money to buy oodles of reeds, nor enough spare time to sort them. After 30 odd years of playing I'm just pretty happy with the sound I make.

[Adam]

Wow, I'm afraid you have missed my point entirely... If you think playing on bad reeds is good for you or somehow productive, knock yourself out. Personally, I don't think its either. If anything, you are just going to ingrain bad habits.

The point of all of this is to play music, and ideally your axe should be a transparent part of the process. Any part of your setup that is detracting from that is holding you back and should be avoided if you want to improve as a player.

And to reiterate my point:

"I share your belief that playing music should not be difficult, but going through several boxes to find the few exceptional reeds does not really sound like not having to worry."

Finding decent (who said anything about exceptional?) reeds is a part of maintenance, just as practicing hours a day is. Common sense tells you not to play with a horn that is leaking like a sieve, and common sense should also tell you not to play with a reed that flat out sucks. All of this is merely preparation for playing music. The playing part is what should not be difficult. If you can't see a difference between the two, I'm sorry. I'll leave it at that since it appears that explaining it further will only stir up more trouble...

[Big Nick]

While we're on the subject of missing points.
I don't play on bad reeds because I believe they're not bad. Merely a bit different.

[Ritchie]

That's exactly the point, Big Nick. I would neither waste my time with a reed I found unplayable or inferior. There just are only very few of these in the boxes I buy!

[Tenorsaxer]

:shock: ok, when I become a serious musician out of highscool and when i'm in college. I will find a synthetic that works for me.

Do you all think i'm not picky enough? as I posted earlier, with Plasticovers I get 2-4 out of a box of five. Do you think the plastic coating helps reeds to not be so "mushy" or something?

[Gaijin-san]

So somebody of Adam's nature would argue that to achieve a different tone from one song to another, one would have to have a different setup, mouthpiece, sax, reed type, etc.

There are others, many of the greats, that would tell you that YOU as a player need to be able to make that mouthpiece or setup sound dark and mellow, or lush, or sweet, or edgy and bright, etc. All within reason of course.

[Adam]

Gaijin-san,
Actually, you have it twisted around... Someone of my nature would argue just the opposite. I want consistancy. This allows you more control, and the ability to concentrate on other things. Switching mouthpieces, horns and types of reeds goes against that. Over time, you are going to sound the same no matter what you are playing on, it's a matter of finding a setup that provides the least resistance to what you are trying to achieve. This will give you the freedom to project what you are thinking and feeling as a player if you are improvising, or the ability to concentrate on reading down a chart flawlessly.

[Ritchie]

Tenorsaxer, if you like synthetics and find one that works for you, that's great. I still haven't found the synthetic that gives me the full cane sound, although I'm ready to admit it may be just my perception of the sound, which I like better on cane. A listener would maybe hear not a big difference, if any at all.

Adam, I completely agree to your statement "you are going to sound the same no matter what you are playing on". Unless maybe, if you put two extremely different setups side by side. But after some time playing on a certain setup, you'll just again sound like yourself. But isn't this also true for many reeds you put aside as "bad"?

[Tenorsaxer]

I use quazi-synthetics now that I like. If plasticovers don't suit me in the upcoming years, I will try to find a synthetic that I like. It sounds like the cane reed headaches are unbearable.

[Vortex]

VODKA!!!! WHISKEY!!!!! To those of you who are having mushiness problems with your reeds, either of these two highly addictive substances should help your reeds significantly. Just fill up a shot-glass and put several "mushy" reeds in there and let 'em sit for a few days. Afterwards, you'll notice that the cane will be tougher: not necessarily harder as in reed strengths, but crisper and stiffer, and that should fix your problem. I've found it works great on nearly all reeds.