C#3 vented keypad on my soprano?

[Mike Ruhl]

I was cleaning my soprano last night, and noticed a keypad on top of a keypad at the top of the left-hand stack. Upon closer examination, I discovered that the keypad underneath had a hole through it's center (pad and keycup). The two keys open and close together for all fingerings except C#3. For C#3, only the underside keypad closes, and that hole serves as a vent. I'll see if I can get a picture to better explain this.

Is this a common arrangement?

[BrianG]

Yes, nearly all modern sopranos have this mechanism from what I can tell. It serves to flatten C#3 and the rest of the palm keys. Try lipping C#2 up to C#3 without the octave key and you can get a good idea of exactly how it works.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks Brian. I also noticed that the vented keypad does not close completely when playing C#3. It appears to need some cork somewhere in the mechanism to help it seal. It was late when I noticed this, and the kids were asleep, so I didn't have a chance to see if manually closing that keypad had any effect on the playability of C#3 and above. I'll play around with it tonight.

I also need to shim my lower octave vent to cause it to open up more.

[Dave Dolson]

Meruhl: All the modern soprs I've owned had/have this keywork. None of my vintage sopranos have it. DAVE

[Mike Ruhl]

After noticing that the lower, vented keypad is not closing completely when I play C#3 and above, I made a point of reaching up and closing it with my left-hand index finger. It does indeed flatten C#3, and stabilizes the palms some. It appears the cork shim on the mechanism has fallen out. Thanks for the help!

Mike R. :USA:

[Paul Coats]

Yes, this is called an "aperture" pad assembly. This is why it is so important to fully depress the octave key when playing the upper register, to completely close the lower half of the aperture pad.

Oddly, the old Buescher Bb sopranos had only a single small pad there for the C#, about 11 mm diameter. It worked just like an alto or tenor.

BUT on their C soprano it was hooked up to the octave key such that in the low register it was open for C#, helping to bring that flat not up, and in the upper register, for high C# that little pad is closed by the octave key.

Mike, on the C# mechanism, there is sometimes a sliding mechism with a post that pushes on a lever. There is supposed to be some plastic tubing on that post, usually clear so you never noticed it before. But it can slip off. You can replace this with a little piece of heat shrink tubing from an electronics supply (Radio Shack, etc), maybe two layers to get the thickness right, and shrink it on the post with a hair dryer.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks Paul. I know what you're talking about with the post that actuates the lever, and yes, it appears that either the plastic sleeve has fallen off. I've had to superglue a couple other sleeves into place on this horn (my only real complaint with this WW&BW soprano). I'll stop by Radio Shack and pick up some tubing.

Mike

[Mike Ruhl]

Paul - the heat-shrink tubing was just the ticket. As it happens, the original clear plastic sleeve was still on the post, but I went ahead and fitted a 1/4" piece of tubing over it anyway. It cleared up two problems: the C#3 aperture pad now closes completely, and it took up some play in the operation of the neck octave arm, too!

Thanks again!

[frankbiff]

I have a 1926 Conn straight sop that has a similar feature. A small pad above the B is closed by the OK for C#3 and above. It remains open for C#2.

[Mike Ruhl]

Interesting. Does it have a little hole through its center?

[Straightsax]

A key with a hole, like an open hole flute. The key on the bottom requires for lack of a better term a "donut pad." Since this key is fairly high up on the horn it can clog up like the palm keys -- even when the horn is maintained.

It's a good pad to watch, because it is used a lot when working the other keys in the upper register and gets a good work out. If not properly adjusted can cause all kinds of problems.

A tone hole with two possibilities for leaks above. What a life, eh?

Well, back to the shed.

Straightsax.

[frankbiff]

meruhl

No hole in the pad. This is not what you describe, but seems to have a similar function. Makes C#3 and the plam keys flater.

This pad is on all horns, its the one above B that closes whan you play a C, but here it is also closed by the OK.

[Straightsax]

Frank, I have no doubt that there is a pad above the B key on your horn. This isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about a key stacked on top of that key, with the key underneath being a donut key -- two keys above one tone hole.

With modern soprano's the key underneath the key of which you speak has a whole in it, so does the pad. Hence, the donut configuration.

It's very similiar to an open hole flute with the upper key pad acting like the flute players finger when placed on the key.

Well, back to the shed.

Straightsax.

[MojoBari]

I have an old Bb Conn and C Buescher sop that has the mechanism Frank is talking about. Sometimes it is regulated to close part way or all the way for the C#3. It is a different design, but I think it is relevent to this discussion.

Steve Goodson also has added this mechanism to some saxes as part of custom work. He adds a rocker mechnism with one end under the octave thumb key. The other end closes off the "b" pad some to flatten a sharp C#3 on problem saxes. See near the bottom of:

http://www.saxgourmet.com/saxmods.html

Did he incorporate this mechanism in his Unison sax?

[frankbiff]

Both mechanisims seem to serve the same function, to flaten C#3 and the plam keys. What advantage is there to the modern system with the key over the key. Sounds like excess linkages, just more things to go out of adjutment. A partial closing as Mojo describes would do the same thing as the key/key system, i.e. flaten it less. The old systems seem to work just fine on my old sop, and it's probably easyer to adjust.

[Mike Ruhl]

Straightsax did a good job describing what I was referring to. My original concern was that the aperture key was not closing completely when just the octave key was depressed. The heat-shrink tubing worked well to correct that. C#3 and above are clearer now.

I'm certainly no instrument technician, but my thought about the old mechanism vs. the new is that the new mechanism may actually be the easier one to regulate and keep in proper adjustment.