New vs Old Series II Altos

[Lee]

I've heard a bit of discussion about the older Series II altos playing darker than the newer horns. I have a alto from 1990 but havn't played anything newer to compare it too. Any opinions :?:

lee :?

[mattsax]

My teacher used to play one of the older IIs (1987) and could also sound darker than did I on my 1995 II alto. But that simply might be because she is a better player than am I.

In any case, the more or less standard line that you will hear on this matter is that when the Serie III (tenor) came out in 1997 with a Serie III alto planned, the Serie II became brighter.

[mattsax]

On the topic of brightness/darkness, so much of this depends upon the player and not the horn. The Serie II alto (1995) is my main horn, but I have a Buescher Trutone from about 1925 which I play now and then. After playing the latter for a while, I notice a difference in how the Serie II alto sounds--deeper, huskier, and darker. Unfortunately, this goes away, as I revert to my usual way of playing.

My teacher, by the way, makes her horn sound like a vintage 6M Conn with a tone just like Bird's. When I remarked on it, she said she's often told that.

I really wish there were more discussion on the matter of what the player does--the emphasis on this forum is so much on equipment.

[Dr G]

My teacher, by the way, makes her horn sound like a vintage 6M Conn with a tone just like Bird's. When I remarked on it, she said she's often told that.

I really wish there were more discussion on the matter of what the player does--the emphasis on this forum is so much on equipment.

That issue of tone production is one of the reasons for having a private teacher. Each person needs to find their own sound and each person will have a slightly different path of getting there. Have you asked your teacher to address how to mold your sound?

I've found it useful for students that have had experiences such as you mention - finding a sound and then losing it - to be more aware of their physical self. All of tone production begins in the player's body. I encourage them to be aware of the sensation of position in the throat, mouth, and tongue, their posture and breathing. There are so many things going on that it's easy for the intermediate player to lose track of tone production when they get lost in concentration on mechanical technique, phrasing, etc. That's why time in each practice session needs to be devoted to tone - until it becomes natural and even after that to reinforce good habits.

[atestarr]

I started out thinking I'd been gypped when I first started playing my 1990 sa 80 II, I thought all the cool kids had the VI's. Thirteen years later my concept of sound developed to the point where the bore, model year and tenon size, etc have become irrelevant concerns. Giving in and ebaying a vintage meyer new york mouthpiece revolutionized my concept. Maybe I got lucky, but I have never played a mouthpiece that made my altissimo facility go from zero to hero in a heartbeat. All those notes I had to really focus on producing now sound as if they were actually related in tambre to the rest of the horn. The tone over the whole horn is a brighter and more balanced. Long story short: As long as the key mechanisms are working, focus on the main areas of sound production. First the mouthpiece, then the neck.

anyway, that's how I see it.

[rewderer]

Hi! this is my first post here. Probably you'll have talked about my question, but here we go... I'd like somebody tell me about different quality sound between selmer and yamaha corns. Specially between YAS875B (I didn't play that one never) and selmer. I always played (27 years...) with selmer (mark VI and superaction II S 80) and thought that selmer have some special sound that ain't got on other corns... but listening Mr. Paquito d'Rivera (one of the best players I heard) with a black yamaha I'm questioning my tradition.
PD.1: type opinions about this musician pls.
PD.2: thanks and sorry about my english... (obviously I'm not from U.S.)

[gary]

I really wish there were more discussion on the matter of what the player does--the emphasis on this forum is so much on equipment.
But Matt, it has been said -over and over. One problem is that many just don't seem to accept it's as uncomplicated as it is and just get on with the hard work of making it happen.

No doubt this is a more gear/accessory-head forum than in depth in some areas, but much of what most players on this forum need has been discussed many times over. Like Bird said, though, "Everyone wants to be the hero but nobody wants to slay the dragon".

Long tones. Sue Terry's article on tone production. Matching overtones (Liebman's "Developing a Personal Sound"), the first few pages of Rascher's "Top Tones", listening to one role model and having that sound deeply embedded in your inner ear (unless you want to substitute that with a clearly defined personal sound) and letting the body follow the mind (or in this case, the inner ear). It's all there and it's all remarkably simple (esoteric pedagogical BS aside). It's just a matter of spending a couple of years doing it and not reading about it or discussing it or becoming overcome with "paralysis by analysis".

[AG]

later serie II's are brighter than the earlier II's.....as in 600XXX's vs 400XXX's.

if you don't believe it try one of each for yourself....using the same set up.

go over at classical and ask around; they know which ones are darker.

[Mike F]

But Matt, it has been said -over and over. One problem is that many just don't seem to accept it's as uncomplicated as it is and just get on with the hard work of making it happen.

No doubt this is a more gear/accessory-head forum than in depth in some areas, but much of what most players on this forum need has been discussed many times over. Like Bird said, though, "Everyone wants to be the hero but nobody wants to slay the dragon".

Long tones. Sue Terry's article on tone production. Matching overtones (Liebman's "Developing a Personal Sound"), the first few pages of Rascher's "Top Tones", listening to one role model and having that sound deeply embedded in your inner ear (unless you want to substitute that with a clearly defined personal sound) and letting the body follow the mind (or in this case, the inner ear). It's all there and it's all remarkably simple (esoteric pedagogical BS aside). It's just a matter of spending a couple of years doing it and not reading about it or discussing it or becoming overcome with "paralysis by analysis".

Very well said Gary. I'm surprised that after the length of time you've been here, and after the number of posts that you've read and written, that you still have the patience to state all of this yet again.

That's why your the SOTW hero!:D

[Fell Boyzs]

As the metal ages in its new form and chemical composition, its sound darkends. It's like cymbals, the older they are the darker and deeper sound they get. With our horns, we keep blowing and blowing and no matter how great you clean it inside and out, there will be a build-up of gunk and dirk and the likes; same as cymbals. My Serie II is much darker know then it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's the nature of things. I could go enviromental on this issue also, but I won't.

-Zach

[gary]

As the metal ages in its new form and chemical composition, its sound darkends.
Gordon? :D

[heath]

Just replace the neck if the II horn is too dark. Lots of options in this regard. I like the copper III myself. I have an older II alto and it sucked until I swapped the neck.