Big Band Question

[ub]

I have been asked to play in a big band; typical group of older guys and gals who are interested in playing again, primarily for their own enjoyment. Typical "jobs" are schools, retirement centers and the occasional club....nothing serious at all and all unpaid, which I have no problem with. I'm just looking for somepleace to play regularly.

Question is this....I am told that everyone has to pay to be a member, in order to cover costs of the book which is being expanded and the cost of a leader. In my younger days, I worked a lot in quartets and big bands and never had to pay to be in a band or group. I was always paid to play.....I didn't pay to play. Doing the math on a 19 piece band times X$ per month adds up to some fairly serious money each month for the guy collecting the cash. Anyone have any experience with this? Is this usual now a days?:?

[Tharruff]

That's a new one on me...I'd find a different band if I was asked to 'pay to play'...but that's just my opinion...

[Transcriber-arranger]

I would say that it's atypical.

If your leader is a professional musician brought in to direct the band--someone like Mike crotty, for instance--he deserves to be paid, just as he would be paid to direct a university ensemble. I'd guess that most bands of this sort are led by someone within the organization, and this individual probably would not be paid.

As for music, the band should ask for an "honorarium" whenever they perform for the express purpose of paying expenses of this sort. If the book is old and musty, perhaps the band should consider a temporary assessment before the honoraria can kick in.

[Harri Rautiainen]

I would say that it's atypical.I would say the same.

Playing in an amateur big band ain't inexpensive considering that you pay for your horn and supplies. And here in Finland one cannot expect to get paid, but have not heard of what ub described.

If the sheet music repertoire is in shape the biggest cost is to pay the leader who typically is a professional. Some big bands are affiliated with local community colleges, and the leader will get his/her pay from government funds.

For out-of-town gigs the travel expenses are compensated for the players. The money the big band gets for playing gigs is typically spent for week-end training camps or concert tours abroad. I have been playing in Sweden, Norway, Latvia, Poland and Hungary, and am scheduled to go to Denmark this spring.

[gary]

The band leader, if he's doing a good job, is doing extra work outside the rehearsals and I personally would have no problem, in principle, compensating him. (To be honest, though, unless the band had a killin' director, I ("I" not meaning "you") would look elsewhere. But that's because I have more experience and can afford (maybe) to be a little more selective, and also, simply put, because I'm cheap!)

Also money for the music has to come from somewhere. Furthermore, does the band use matching music stands and/or have a sound system? And perhaps it has purchased some keyboard equipment. Maybe you are not aware of just where all the money is going.

OTOH, and I don't know what kind of playing opportunities there are in your area, but it would seem to me that not enough is being done to get pay (honorarium) gigs. I''ve been in a big band for several years and we did regular pay gigs and the money was all rolled back into band music, equipment, etc. But the band leader was also paid separately.

I just think you need more information before you can make a decision you will be comfortable with. Otherwise, if you chose to play you might eventually become resentful and that won't benefit anyone.

[ub]

Transcriber/Gary/Tharuff/Harri: Thanks for the thoughts....appreciated. You all make some valid points...I do have a sizeable amount of money in my saxes and other equipment. The leader, a local school band director and non-playing member, does deserve to be compensated for his time. And, the need to expand the book is real. I suppose the part that I a have a bit of a bother with is the amount garnered on a monthly basis by the organizer ( a playing member) of the now several years old band. I almost feel like I am helping to support his other busienss ventures. And yes, I am perhaps a bit cheap.

Gary, the band does not own or supply the keyboard, nor does it have a sound system or music stands that are any different than the one I use in my home. These and others were all questions I asked and got answered. I agree that the effort to obtain paying work for the band to help support it could or should be emphasized more. Playing opportunites are somewhat limited in general in my area, thus my interest in this band.

Whatever I decide, I intend to go along happy and play as that is really what I am after...just the chance to play. Thanks again for the comments.

[gary]

So you're not confident where the money is going. Practically all community bands here are organized as "Verein", that is clubs with a president and board of helpers which includes a treasurer. Each year there is a general meeting of all members and there are annual, open reports on, among other things, the income and expenditures. Additionally, there is always at least one independent person who checks the Treasurer's books before this meeting. What kind of "club" organization and open accountability does this band have?

[Bob M]

ub-

I have heard of this before. Here in RI there is a big band in the northern part of the state that is organized as a 501 C-3 (i.e. a non-profit organization). Band members pay dues, which, along with any fees the band earns from performances, pay the musical director (who is a professional and gets paid for the job) as well as presumably paying for the practice facility, maintaining and upgrading the sound system and buying new charts.

I am not a member of this band, but was in another local big band which folded after 9-months. The leader of my band had done a good job recruiting local pros to play (for free) in addition to us weekend warriors and tried to support the band by charging a cover for our weekly gig. Problem was, when the pros got busy with their paying gigs during the summer, they stopped coming and we never drew a big enough crowd to even cover the leader's costs. He folded the band in November.

I'm now planning to try to get into the first band, which has a waiting list.

[hellonwheels]

Dear all

I help to run and play in a big band here in S-E UK. We ask members to pay weekly fees (£2.00/week), this helps towards the hire of the hall, band and public liability insurance, cost for deps, licensing, etc. Annual costs run at about £600. No-one even considers objecting, it is the done thing here in the UK.

Until quite recently (Christmas) it had progressed to the stage where we were paying for a professional MD at £20 per night, and he demanded semi pro deps on 1st trumpet, 1st trom and occasionally the drummer for gigs. The costs varied, but it could be just for travel expenses so perhaps £10, or could be £50.

And the MD, who could earn himself at least £60 instead of being at band practice, decided to leave as the money just wasn't enough for him.

You also have to add in the purchase of new music, which could be £15, could be £50 a set.

We desperately need a new PA as the old PA is on its last legs. Could also do with a recording session so that we can promote the band, or to sell at gigs.

The extra charges soon add up, to the extent where the band was in debt to around £500. The debt was actually owed to the bari sax player, who was the band chairman.

So we have recently introduced quarterly fees of £20 in addition to the weekly fee. This ensures that the band repays the debt, and becomes financially secure for the future. Also, we can pay for a new MD without having to worry where the money is coming from. There have been one or two grumbles, but those players will have to decide whether they want to stay or not.

Put it this way: where else can you get 2 hours of pro/semi pro tuition, an excellent range of music, a safe and secure rehearsal room and refreshments at half time for a cost of £1.70/hour???

If you play golf you have to pay. if you belong to gym you have to pay. if you play any other sport you have to pay. why not band?

If you don't have paid gigs, or you don't have many paid gigs, where else does the money come from??

Helen
1st Tenor in the band

[ralph lh]

Pay to play is fairly common around here - with the community based bands. The point has been made that it's a way to get some instruction both on performance of pieces and perhaps on your instrument.

Typically the community concert band has to hire a leader/conductor and that means a payment of some sort. Additionally some band save to purchase certain instruments that the band needs but would typically have a hard time finding a musician that has their own - percussion type things such as tympany drums or tuba. Items purchased for the band stay with the band no matter who the leader is from year to year.

These types of community concert bands are seen as a place that people can go and play when there aren't other places to do so - not everyone wants to be in a jazz quintet. As such, I think it is reasonable that a fee be paid by the musicians to keep the band going and for a night out of good music and friendship.

OTOH, there are bands that plays gigs for a fee and charge the musicians ostensibly to cover the cost of the rehearsal hall. The fee also covers new charts and if the band gets paid reasonably well during the year there is a reduced fee by way of a rebate. Part of the problem that I have with this is that the leader owns the charts that the band has paid for.
Ralph

[Randall]

Here in Japan it is the NORM to pay dues or a monthly membership fee to assuage the costs of hall rental for practice, buying charts, etc....
Being the only active pro in a couple of bands, I am not asked to pay, but that is a respect thing.

Quite often my big band or my salsa band has a big party after a big gig and we eat and drink up the proceeds rather quickly.
I know that seems strange maybe, but many bands purpose here is more social than for financial gain.

[saxobari]

The big band that I am with have no fees at all! It is just a bunch of all ages guys that wants to play music and has been together for a good 5 years! Also I would say mostly the same old players too! When there is a paying gig,it does'nt happens often but when it does everyone is paid equaly,even the leader that owns the charts! I don't agree with the leader charging a fee in a small communitee band to raise fund specialy when all the charts belongs and stays with him! A practice hall is always available,and If not then it would certainly be a fair reason to pay for such use! I don't like when money is paid more to one member or even to the leader,only when it is proven to have a fair reason for it!
Saxobari

[goodsax]

I play in a 17-piece (at full strength) swing band made up much the same as you described, but no money is asked of the members. On rare occasion we get a small stipend for our efforts, about $10, and I have donated my take back to the band for expenses, but that wasn't asked for, or required.

I play in a second ("community") swing band and no payment is required. However, I've been in this band a couple of years and have yet to receive any payment for playing, which is okay because any payment received by the band goes to the community band organization for expenses and that is understood by all members before joining the group.

OTOH, I pay $50/year to play in a community concert band and consider that a reasonable amount to support my hobby. Less than $5/month is not a lot of money for any hobby. In this band we have to bring our own stand and chair to many of the concerts. Ironically, in another community concert band, no dues were required and stands and chairs were supplied at all concerts.

Additionally, to feed my need for playing in groups, I joined a community college jazz band, but one might consider the registration, parking, and other fees to sign up for the class as sort of dues to play. This semester the total came to about $85, which is a lot more than the $50/year I pay to play in the concert band, but the jazz ensemble is much more challenging and, frankly, more enjoyable. We practice once a week in preparation to play one concert at the end of the semester. It's primarily a learning experience, not for anyone interested in gigging.

[Frank D]

I only skimmed this thread so forgive me if someone already covered this, but they could be paying for the rehearsal spot, as well.

As far as playing with a big band w/o paying gigs, I'd pay a reasonable monthly sum, maybe $20 or less to play, depending on circumstances. I've moved around a lot, and have found that the best way to make contacts is to find a big band to play in. I've played in community bands, etc. and they've always led to contacts with other band members that led to paying gigs, if that's your goal. I think of it as an investment.

[tensopbass]

We pay our conductors and hall hire, but most expensive is public liability insurance, which has gone through the roof lately. It makes it real hard to balance the books without exhorbitant member fees. nicko