Does anyone have bad things to say about the P. Mauriat PMXT-66R?

[deiter1977]

Hey there,

Ever since playing the P. Mauriat tenors (especially the PMXT-66R) at the NAMM show a few weeks ago, I've been doing a lot of reading about them online. I've read magazine reviews, many threads here on SOTW, and whatever else I can find. :coffee: In all of that reading, I've found almost no substatial complaints. No one has said they dislike them (although it's not everyone's favorite horn). No one reports playing a bad P. Mauriat tenor that's been adjusted by a decent tech.

The few negatives that I HAVE read:

:clock: The durability of the line has not YET stood the test of time. This doesn't mean that it won't pass the test; it simply hasn't been around to be evaluated on that basis.
:? It's manufactured in Taiwan, a country not exactly known for it's consistent manufacturing of quality products. Yet no one reports playing a bad horn.
:boxing: It comes with a less than excellent case that may not handle a good beating. At about 1/2 the price of a "big 4" sax of like playability, that can be overcome with an aftermarket case.


So here's the question: Does anyone have anything bad to say about these horns? :Rant:

I'm getting ready to buy a PMXT-66R in the next couple of months. If anyone can "bring balance to the force", please speak up! I'm a bit cynical, so I have a hard time believing that NO ONE has hit a bump on this road. I need to go into this purchase w/ all the info to make an educated decision. Of course, the final test will be playing the horn immediately before purchase. Nevertheless, I'd love to hear from you if you have a negative P. Mauriat tenor story. :help: And so it begins...

[sinjarah]

If you think Taiwan has a bad reputation for quality, I'd like to ask which nations you think do make quality horns? There are many posts on this board about quality problems from every nation that builds saxophones. Are you talking about the Taiwanese people in general, or about some specific brands? If you're talking about specific brands, what are they, and how are they associated with Mauriat?

I've been thinking about buying a Mauriat and have examined a few of them. The workmanship looks to me to be as fine as you can obtain anywhere.

I believe lumping all of a nation's products together is most unfair, and borders on being racist, although that is most probably not your intent. I would hope that we could all discuss specific brands and their good and bad attributes rather than nations of people.

[thehighend]

Here's something to consider that might be a negative in some buyers' minds, even if it does seem a bit superficial. As mentioned by Giganova in another thread: the P. Mauriat company has a French name but was founded in the US just a few years ago; and, the horns are manufactured from French brass in Taiwan, but on the bell of the horns it is written "New York London France".

The unfortunate aspect of these marketing gimmicks is that they are often associated with cheap saxes. That being said, even Yamaha claims in their sax brochure that their Custom horns are made in Japan from imported French brass. Nonetheless, I appreciate that Yamaha has not (yet) begun engraving "France" on the bells of those Custom horns.

Company names Yamaha and Yanagisawa are not intended to deceive (i.e., in regards to the country-of-origin). I like when companies don't pretend to be other than what they are, whether in name or what they write on their products. If you feel similarly, this all might be a possible negative, albeit a small one.

[gary]

What the highend said.

Amen my brother!

[retread]

Agreed. I'm sure they're good saxes, but their marketing smacks of snake oil. And, from posts on this forum, the price gap between PM and the big 4 seems to be rapidly shrinking.

[Grumps]

If I really wanted to see what one of these horns could do (or can't do), I'd play one side by side with some vintage horns. I actually did want to try one (as apparently, I'm not completely immune to hype) and I asked someone in the business who sells them what they're all about. His only comment was, "keep playing what you're playing", knowing they wouldn't appeal to me.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I've seen them and they seem well made and for what they were selling for before the talked about price hikes they seemed to provide a certain value in the entry level pro horn market. I would guess that like a lot of makers from Taiwan that they will continue to improve their product which is only going to benefit sax players.

[saxmanglen]

The SOTW community seems to have a love affair with certain horns that come out.

I remember within the last 2 years everyone was "gun ho" over the Antigua sopranos. Seems many may have made impulse purchases as there have been several sold or for sale recently. The good news is people are still saying good things about them.

I'm also intrigued at the Mauriet. I'd like to have a second tenor in my arsenal with a less "sterile" sound than I get from my Yani. I'd also like to hear from those down the road that have been gigging regularly with the P's and their durability. That waits to be seen.

Just like the Antigua's the P's seem to be going up in price as they become more popular. If I had the discretionary income right now I'd probably be climbing on the P train.

If they truly are the "bee's knee's", I hope those that have made impulse purchases start to unload them at a fair price and I have the $$ to do something at that time.

Glen

[Daktion]

Thing is, the P. is a very well made horn that has a "unique" sound when comparing to other modern horns. If you value a darker fuller sound than yes I think you should definately give them a try. They are however, not perfect.

With my sax, I've noticed some very minor manufacturing flaws. Flaws such as the vintage brush is uneven in some areas or totally left out where there should be. Also, small traces of manufacturing "goo" could be seen left on the finish which can be removed... luckily :) But that's just being super picky... you won't notice it if I posted pics of the horn... which I did. Everyone that I've actually showed my horn to haven't noticed it as well.

Another negative will be that because it isn't a big 4, the resale value will be lower. This actually could be a good or bad thing depending on which side of the boat you're on. However, if you think you'll hold on to the P. then the aftermarket value shouldn't affect your decision at all.

Also, I think some of you are being too critical about the whoe "french brass" thing. Many companies in many industries do the same thing when trying to appeal to a market when their true identity may hinder growth and demand. Taiwan in the past hasn't been known for upper end instruments so I can see why they dediced to up play the "french" connection. If you look at many products that you use in your daily life. You may find a few that actually originate from less than desirable locations or companies you don't approve of. Heck, in Iraq right now, you think all those American companies are going to be flying their flag while attempting to increase their sales? It's just a marketing strategy, it has failed in the past and has also worked well.

btw deiter.... I've noticed you play a ref54 alto. I was practically a heartbeat away from owning a vintage finish ref54 when I decided on trying the P. since it was half the price. The ref54s are very nice saxes but imo just not worth the $$ for the upgrade.


good luck with your purchase decision.

[tomsch]

I've gigged with my P for the past two months and here's the feedback.....
First of all I don't really care where the horn is manufactured as long as it does what I want it to and is durable. Durable to me means I can depend on it when I pull it out of the case at a gig. I typically set up my horn on stage where it won't get banged around which does help. Now, onto the P:

Palm keys - The spacing is a little tight compared to my Couf. This has taken the longest time to get used to of all the features.

Side high-E key rubbed when I first received the horn. I had to bend the key to make room. The design manufacturing should have ensured that the spacing was correct. I attribute this partly to adjustment but also in manufacturing and design. As a side note, bending the keys for alignment was HARD! I was surprised at how tough the metal is to bend. This is good for long term durability in my book.

Case: Looks cool but there is way too much flex. This has been reviewed before but putting the neck in the slot creates too much stress if the case is flexed. I ended up putting the neck in a bag in the bell.

Tone: Very fat low end with a nice resonance. Palm keys are very well in tune but does not have the resonance that the low end has. This is minor since the overall tone is big and dark even in the palm keys. I tend to like a horn that has a nice buzz to the sound and the P has that but I wish the palm keys had just a tiny bit more. I'm working on opening my throat which is helping.

Overall I'm loving this horn and have gigged with it exclusively since I first picked it up.

[deiter1977]

Thanks to all for your input and insight. :cheers: Over all, as the saxophone community has confirmed my original findings: no one will testify to having played a bad P. Mauriat tenor saxophone. This encourages me to pursue my intention to buy a PMXT-66R.

Thanks to Daktion and tomsch for their input about specific, observable flaws in the horns, minor though they may be. While you both seem be consistent with the overall consensus that the P’s are very good horns, you’ve given me concrete things to consider and examine when I go to choose my own. :salute: These are the types of things I was really looking for when I asked the question, “Does anyone have bad things to say about the P. Mauriat PMXT-66R?”

Grumps, thanks for your input as well. However, I’m not entirely certain I understand the point you were making. From what I read, it seems like you’ve dismissed the P. Mauriat line because someone else didn’t think you’d be interested. It might be worth while for you to try the horns (if you haven’t already) before discouraging others.

I appreciate the comments from a few of you about the whole French/American/Taiwanese marketing issue. It does raise questions about ethical marketing. :!: I also appreciate the considerations about resale value. However, as I'm looking for info about the quality and playability of the horns themselves, IMHO I don’t find this terribly relevant. (Relevant in this case is only as it serves my purposes. All of your thoughts and opinions are valid!)


If you think Taiwan has a bad reputation for quality, I'd like to ask which nations you think do make quality horns? There are many posts on this board about quality problems from every nation that builds saxophones. Are you talking about the Taiwanese people in general, or about some specific brands? If you're talking about specific brands, what are they, and how are they associated with Mauriat?

I've been thinking about buying a Mauriat and have examined a few of them. The workmanship looks to me to be as fine as you can obtain anywhere.

I believe lumping all of a nation's products together is most unfair, and borders on being racist, although that is most probably not your intent. I would hope that we could all discuss specific brands and their good and bad attributes rather than nations of people.
sinjarah, I think you and I are in total agreement. :D In my orginal post initiating this thread, I may not have expressed myself clearly. I do not have a personal opinion on Taiwanese manufacturing; I was simply summarizing (albeit not very well) what others have brought up as a reason to be skeptical/cautious of P. Mauriat saxophones. However, none of them has actually found one that they consider to be a bad horn. (If they did, they haven’t bothered to post about it anywhere that I can find.) I agree with many of those in this thread who say that an instrument, and indeed a manufacturer, should be evaluated on their products, not their ethnicity or geography.

All in all, I’m looking forward to buying my 66R. However, I’d still be very open to hearing from someone who has actually played a bad P. Mauriat tenor. (… if such a person exists!) 8-)

[Grumps]

No, I would like to try one of these horns, but having dismissed all the new offerings from the big four, I doubt this would do it for me either. My friend just understands this. Probably also why I suggested playing this new model alongside a vintage pro model. Just to keep things grounded in reality.

[Mark R]

I appreciate the comments from a few of you about the whole French/American/Taiwanese marketing issue. It does raise questions about ethical marketing.


I own a PMXT-66R and have raved about it plenty in other threads. I just wanted to address the issue of P. Mauriat engraving New York, London, Paris on the bell. I consider it to be similar to something the high end stores and hotels do in advertisments when you look at the bottom below the brand name and they list locations....Example: Gucci....Milan, Venice, Paris, Berlin, Miami, Beverly Hills, Tokyo, Dallas, etc.

This does not imply that anything being sold in the store is made at any of these places. Also wake up and smell the reality. Nearly every company that makes products gets different components from vendors all over the planet. You would be surprised that for quite a long time Yanagisawa and Yamaha have been getting the keys, rods and other drop forged parts from other places....like Taiwan. Most any saxophone has pads from one place, springs from another, metal from another....they may be assembled in Taiwan and as more time passes Taiwan is demonstrating that they can bring a quality product to the table. I have played quite a few Selmer and Keilwerths that seemed like they slipped past quality control.

Chances are the computer you are looking at, the microwave you heated something with, the electronic devices you are using, the cell phone you talk on were made in the Far East.....at a labor cost that allows more people to buy a quality product. Sorry for the soap box. Like Tom said what really matters is if the instrument performs like you want it to. It will still be a test of time as to how dependable and well made a P. Mauriat will pan out to be. I remember the same fears arising when Yamaha introduced their saxophones. One of the first players to have a Yamaha alto was Coltrane BTW.

So yeah P. Mauriat may use some hokey strange marketing but obviously it is working...because we are discussing it. That is the goal of advertisment to place it in your mind. How many times have you seen something on TV and thought...."Now that was gross or stupid".....but you can remember the product..right!

[thehighend]

I personally have nothing against Taiwanese manufacturing. In fact, I have the highest regard for the mfg abilities of the Taiwanese.

To use the fashion analogy, if I paid top-dollar for what I thought was a designer Italian brand-name suit (which had tags mentioning, say, Florence and Paris), and then I subsequently found out that this company was simply a couple of MBAs sitting in a room in Scottsdale, AZ (random city), and that they outsourced the suits from Taiwan, then I would be a bit annoyed. Not because I don't think that good suits can be made in Taiwan, but rather because I wouldn't appreciate what you called "some hokey strange marketing".

[Sigmund451]

With new models, cool finishes and "pearls" the price continues to rise much faster than public knowledge. It wont be long before they are trying to sell all of them in the upper 2K range. When this happens they may well fall by the wayside and the name into obscurity. Significant value will be lost on resale if this happens. Note, this concern is an investment concern...but it does matter as we do tend to change horns from time to time. Its too bad someone wont make a good horn and then refrain from rapidly jacking the price up leaving stock holders (musicians) holding the bag.

[GAS_Wyo]

Great Thread!

When I had one under my fingers I could feel the quality. This one was right out of the box at Saxalley. The only complaint I could find was that the horn's action was slightly 'tighter' than the old Bundy I'd been playing for 30 years. But what do you expect? Are my old blued steel springs wearing out?

Another complaint I read before I purchased my horns was that someone didn't like the 'feel' of the rolled tone holes. Easy solution, just buy the standard 66. I personally loved the RTH's...the prospect of not having to replace the pads a few years into playing suits me just fine.

Although I haven't received my horns yet, I can't wait to have one of these babies in my hands again. The sound is what sold me. I truly went to SaxAlley thinking I would just head on down to Denver and buy one from a music store there. I was WAY WRONG!

[portofino]

sold all my horns...now have tenor rolled tone hole and curvy soprano...you'll have to kill me to get them from me....

[moontom]

I play a non-rolled tonehole PM. before that I played an all-original Super Balanced. not only is the quality of the PM's workmanship totally there, I find the sound has dimension and richness that far outstrips other new horns, incl the Yamaha silver custom and the Yani. I liked the PM tenor so much I tracked down a low Bflat baritone, which positively screams.

[58tenor]

I almost bought a P. Never tried one but wouldn't be surprised to find a crackerjack unit. The global situation today allows top quality products to be "sourced" from wherever you like.

I agree about the obfuscatory marketing though. That is annoying. Just be straight up with it and if it's a good product it will stand on merit. It just takes awhile. Taiwan and the far east in general were the world source for cheap, chintzy goods after WWII. It's a VERY different world now. It seems some bit of inferiority complex remains in the market psyche.

Too bad B&S placed so little stock in their own name. Look where they are.
I hope the P. succeds and they don't become to greedy and full of themselves, oui?

[rispoli]

I hope the P. succeds and they don't become too greedy

They already did.
PM me if you want to know (according to my unconfirmed source) how much it costs them to produce 1 unit :shock: .

[Dr G]

Ah, another new horn on the block and the community is buzzin'.

Does anyone else remember "Goodson - Unison"? Does anyone here still play one?

[thehighend]

rispoli, for any saxophone manufacturer, the "1 unit" cost you speak of will be low. To make a sax, the materials costs are very low: about 8 pounds of brass, some mother of pearl slices, lacquer, leather pads, and bits of plastic and felt. All together, probably a couple hundred dollars of materials, at most. And, the direct labor costs will also be quite low, even for European manufacturers, because with efficient processes the number of labor hours is not a large number (e.g., watch Yamaha's video to see how efficiently Yamaha produces even its Custom saxes). Moreover, if the factory is not operating at full capacity (e.g., if the factory has the potential to produce horns at a rate larger than demand), and the labor-laws in the country are such that workers are guaranteed a certain # of hours each week, as is typically the case in Europe, then the labor-cost incurred to produce an additional sax is actually $0.

So, even for the Big-4 manufacturers, the incremental cost "to produce 1 unit" is on the order of only a few hundred dollars. Yet, to stay in business, these companies have to sell their products with retail prices of a few thousand dollars, due to all their fixed costs that need to be covered.

[rispoli]

To make a sax, the materials costs are very low: about 8 pounds of brass, some mother of pearl slices, lacquer, leather pads, and bits of plastic and felt. All together, probably a couple hundred dollars of materials, at most.


Yes, I came up with those numbers too.

That's why I get upset when some dealers say they have to raise the prices of a couple of hundred dollars because of higher brass prices...
I'd reply to those...Come on: just say the truth or don't say anything!
And, by the way, other dealers did not raise the prices so much.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Everyone wants to make a buck just some want to make more. Either the greed can continue or someone else comes along and offers a more competitive price for a product that plays as well or better and then the players can choose.

[tomsch]

I fell for the "SOTW-hype" over the last two years. The first was a Mad Meg Cannonball.... gone. Next was a B&S 2001..... gone. Then a Selmer Series II with a SIII neck...... gone. Finally a Yamaha YTS-82ZUL..... still have that one. And now a P Mauriat which I still have and is my main gig horn. It comes down to the fact that I was lucky finding a horn that aligned to what I wanted and that has been the P. Not to say that the other ones were bad but they were all missing something that I was looking for in a tenor.

As a side note, did anyone here actually own a Goodson Unison?

[deiter1977]

Everyone makes good points in this thread; thanks for all of your input and insight.

Everyone wants to make a buck just some want to make more. Either the greed can continue or someone else comes along and offers a more competitive price for a product that plays as well or better and then the players can choose.

I would have to say that P. Mauriat's prices are very competitive. The horns are priced below what I would consider comparable quality instruments. The only reason for their price increases in recent history is that they are just now gaining the notoriety that matches their quality. Before, they may have been BELOW competitive pricing.

Besides that, it's MHO that we as consumers dictate the price of the P. Mauriat saxophones, and indeed all other saxophones, cars, toothbrushes, etc. Other than the fact that it is impractical for a manufacturer to set retail pricing below the cost of manufacturing and distribution, the can only charge what we are willing to pay. It's that whole "supply & demand" thing...8-)

[Hurling Frootmig]

Supply and demand - that's where I was going with my statement. Essentially market forces/competition will let the chips fall where they will.

I think we could easily see a $1000 alto that is of "pro" quality from either China or Taiwan in the future. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Daktion]

Supply and demand - that's where I was going with my statement. Essentially market forces/competition will let the chips fall where they will.

I think we could easily see a $1000 alto that is of "pro" quality from either China or Taiwan in the future. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

I agree with China's presence they may affect the prices for pro horns but I dont know if they can go that low...... China's monetary infrastructure is starting to get out of control, if the government wants to maintain control, they will need to raise the value of their money.

atm I'm in a manufacturing industry so I see first hand how these countries work. They usually buy the most top of the line machinery that will result in the most efficient way of production. Then they break down this machine, study it and try to replicate it themselves and have their unskilled labour use it ... hence the first production wave produces lower quality products. however, they continue to gain skill at it making these machines and their workers gain skill using these machines, then ....overall quality sky rockets and can actually bypass existing companies (eg Big 4 for saxes).

If existing companies aren't aggressive enough to maintain their lead, the public perception of them will decrease. You can see this in many other industries such as the automotive industry. Some of you may remember at one time the Big 3 automakers had high quality perception by customers and the japanese car makers were producing horrible vehicles...... now that whole perception is gone and toyota is challenging GM for 1st spot.

[Datsaxguy]

I've been looking for a back up horn to a Mark VI I bumped into for a few weeks. I had been playing a Keilwerth for about 5 years and just gave up on it becuase of the ERGO's. I went to my local music store to try the Morry out. The Morry sound was very similiar to that of my Keilwerth but after a few minutes I noticed some intonation problems. Low Bb was just way sharp. I liked the horn otherwise. I think this horn will be really really good in a few years. I loved the finish, looked and felt great. It really could be a freak horn but I doubt it.

[GHawk]

I went to my local music store to try the Morry out.

How did Morry feel about that?:D ;)

[saxmanglen]

How did Morry feel about that?:D ;)

Better yet, how did Morry's WIFE feel about that?:D :D :D :D

[Randall]

I am on the second week of PM-ing.
Things I noticed and had confirmed by other players:

The horn has a pretty focused sound. By that I mean that someone standing in front of the horn will hear quite a bit of sound coming directly at them but if sitting or standing to the side, the sound doesn't seem to "spread out".
This is what I had noticed, but wanted others to confirm.

Another interesting thing- When I held the PM in the traditonal way (to the side position, while sitting) I hear a great deal more (doh!) than when I play in my usual between the legs in-front playing style.

I was a lot more satisified with my sound and dynamics that way.

No kidding, these are good horns.:D

[rispoli]

I am no longer a P.Mauriat 66R owner for essentially one problem I could not get over: the resistance in the upper register.
My playing limits have surely a role, but any other professional tenor I owned had the highs popping up easier than the P.Mauriat.
I think they did find a great design for the bottom end of their tenors (no other modern tenors I think can match it) but not quite in the other end.
The super VI neck only partially fixed the problem.
Having said that, I think it's a well built and truly respectable horn, just not the best match for my current skills.
Your results may vary.

[jazzychaz]

I just play tested an alto (the PMXA-67R), the one with the antique finish and blue pearl button inlays, and I was very impressed. I have all Rampone & Cazzani R1 Jazz horns - very open and rich, but I really liked the P.

For a guy like me who uses a lot of air (250lb. weightlifter, former lead trumpet player) the horn responded very well to me. I liked the tone, the feel, the altissimo, the finish, the sturdiness - not much didn't appeal to me. Overall I feel like this is an excellent horn for the price. I'm thinking of getting an alto & tenor for backup horns, if I ever get enough $$$.

[Grumps]

Sorry... but this thread is only asking for bad things to say.
Someone had better alert a moderator...

[thehighend]

Sorry... but this thread is only asking for bad things to say.
Someone had better alert a moderator...
:) Well, he did say "for the price", and something about only wanting them as backup horns. :twisted:

[Mike Cesati]

Wish I had something bad to say but I just tried one today and it was great sounding horn. It was owned but a sales rep for PM. He brought his personal 66 over and another PM (//) that I tried . The first one I hated it . It wasn't a 66, the other horn which he said was a 66 was a huge sounding horn. I only played it 10 minutes but I was very impressed. It was a very early model with NO engraving. I guess that is no longer a way to get them.

[Morry]

Pros:

Very lush sound, full of character and depth (to my ears).
Comfortable under your hands.
Good intonation.

Cons:

Some manufacturing flaws (partially rolled tone holes, grinder marks showing through finish, etc.). Did not affect playability.
Worst built cases I've ever seen.
After hefty price increases, they are not the bargain that they were 2 years ago.
New models have ridiculous looking rainbow-colored abalone key touches.
Can be overly dark sounding with the wrong mouthpiece.

Summary:

If you can find a minty used one at a good price, it might be the last horn you ever buy.

[Swampcabbage]

To continue the fashion comparison. Many times (not all) the "knock-offs" can be better quality than the originals. Case in point. I had a teacher who did a comparison of one of the fashionable handbags. The name brand was a couple hundred bucks and the knock off was around 30. He said the name brand used better material and hand stitching.

Moral - sometimes name brands just trade on their names and little else after establishing a good rep.

I'm not saying this is true with everyone. But, the lesson is. Just play the horn and if you like it, go with it.