Help: biting and intonation

[sjabariiii]

I've read the threads on biting, chin bunching etc. but I'm stuck. I can play everything up to B3 with almost no pressure from the bottom. Above that I can get the notes out but they are extremely flat. I have to bite down considerably in order to bring them in tune (they sound much better that way too). But it hurts! And I've got the mouthpiece almost all the way on with no room to tune sharp if I needed to. Maybe my setup is too hard/open (metal yani 7 / Alex DC 2.5 or 3—the softer 3s work best) but I have the same problem on all my mouthpieces incl. my old meyer 5m.

Help! :(

thanks in advance,
ANDYJ

[MojoBari]

Have you explored the mouthpiece alone pitch exercise? Also, are you talking bari sax? How long have you been playing? What make of sax?

[sjabariiii]

I play a mark 6 alto. I've been playing for 12 years but only a few years seriously. Last few weeks I've been playing 4-5 hours a day and my chops are getting strong, but this biting thing is getting me. I've worked a little with just the mouthpiece and a tuner. The rock-hard O shaped embouchure I use that sounds great in the mid and low range of the horn gets me around a concert F# or G (rather than an A). I can hold the A but it's more a of biting embouchure. Do I need to find a way to get the A without biting? I can draw out the corners of my mouth into more a of smile but I find I'm losing some depth in the mid-range and still biting a little. I am trying for a huge thick tone which is what has got me where I am at the moment.

-ANDYJ

[MojoBari]

I think exploring some embouchure variations may open some doors for you. Most players do not use the (Larry Teal) "O" embouchure. At least not in its purest sense. I like Paul Coat's embochure description: suck your thumb lightly and note all your mouth, lip, jaw positions and forces. A flatter sax embouchure does not require a lot of jaw and teeth force. Just like sucking your thumb: you are not going to bite through you lip while doing it.

You should try to find an embouchure that gets the proper pitch on the mouthpiece that is also comfortable. Take in more/less mouthpiece. Use harder/softer reeds. Experiment. Maybe you do not need a large change, but if you do not change anything, you will probably always get the same results.

[sjabariiii]

Thanks for your help mojo. I'm working on it. I went back to my morgan 7E which is a bit easier to play. It seems I was tuning the horn way sharp and muscle-ing the pitch back down. This produced an unusually thick and focused tone that I liked but the high register was almost impossible. I'm trying out a more relaxed embouchure like the one you described, with the corners of my mouth draw out more and much less facial muscle. It sounds ok but kinda thin, spread, and bright... and sloppy. And I seem to use a lot less lip this way. I can get the high notes without changing too much, but still some biting... it's as if I took the intense biting and spread it out over the whole range so it's not as bad.

man. this is hard.

[MojoBari]

The goal is a supported embouchure that you can relax with. First get control of the full range of the sax and all volume levels. Then you can work on tone color. Since you hear a darker sound in your head, you will gravitate towards it over time.

[Razzy]

I had the exact same problem for a long time, like, EXACTLY what you're having. Then I decided to use more air, less lip, and the mouthpiece gradually came out off the cork. My tone became bigger, more present, less edgy, and the altissimo blends more with the regular range now. Also, what helped me a lot in regards to embouchure and opening up the sound over the range as well as bringing it more in tune were the Berbiguier 18 Etudes/Exercises for Flute, but played on alto sax. These suckers are TOUGH at points but they really open up your sound and bring the embouchure together across the full range because of the radical intervals.

[sjabariiii]

Thanks razzy, it's nice to know I'm not the only one. Especially as right now it seems all my experimentation has accomplished so far is ruining my tone and my practice routine! :Rant2:

I find I have a lot of tension in my chin when I use less lip. This can't be right, can it?? Also the octave breaks like crazy on middle D-E.

I'll look for the etudes at some point but at the moment I can hardly play 'hot cross buns' without cracking a note or warping out of tune.

-ANDYJ

[MS]

You might want to look at some of the threads in the altissimo section that mention voicing and tongue position..

If you have your mouthpiece on the instrument more that an inch and 1/4, you are playing plenty loose. (Measure the part of the neck that goes inside the mps.) You can move the mps in or out on the neck cork (probably a half inch)and learn to playi it in tune, but something inside you oral cavity/vocal tract will change and adjust. The further in your mps goes, the sound will be big, open and in your face type of sound. You will have to play with all the cavaties as open as possible, and jaw pretty open. THis gets as tiring for control as biting UNLESS YOU MOVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF AIR. Playing soft will be a strain and tuning may move around a lot.

My best advise would be to start doing the mouthpiece exercise A=880 for five minutes a day (as Mojo mentions). Before you do that, whistle a song with some wide intervals AND PAY ATTENTION TO HOW YOUR TONGUE IS RAISING AND LOWERING WITH THE PITCH. Dosen't matter if you whistle well or not, the tongue movement is the important thing. Many people will think this is unimportant and stupid and will not do it or do it half hartedly. If that's you - it's your loss.

Search out threads on overtones and start doing the overtone exercises. All of this will take some of your practice time, but in a couple of months, you will find a different way to get the same/similar sound that you want/like,---you'll just diecover a more efficient way of getting it done.

the value of the overtones for you will be to learn to voice the palm keys in tune and with the same full sound you are looking for, but you'll be doing it with your oral cavity and vocal tract instead of biting into your lip.

Once you learn to voice the overtones, you need to compare overtone voicings for Bb3 to F3 with regular fingerings and learn to use the overtone voicings with the regular fingerings. Best of luck to you --and the fun will come after the work is done. :D

[sjabariiii]

Thanks MS. I've been doing overtones religiously for 5 or 6 years now. It's one of the main ways I'm testing my embouchure, to see how easily the overtones pop out and whether they are in tune. I've never really thought about the toungue position and cavities much though, just let them adjust automatically... I'll check it out. It sounds like you know about what I'm after soundwise.

[MS]

I just read your initial post again. Flat from B3 on up?

Suggest you try to speed up your air, get maximum reed vibration and only firmly cushion with your bottom lip.

To you (the player) if you do this right, the sound may sound thinner to your ears. Probably won't on tape. THe sound is not going to be as big and robust as low Bb1 and don't try to make it so -you'll end up with a very spread unfocused tone that won't project.

Practice playing "Mary had a little Lamb" on your mouthpiece only- and keep your air speed fast - make the changes by voicing and tongue (as in whistling). If you can even remotly come close, it should start to be a help. Most players who work 5 minutes a day can at some point do songs with a range of an Octave. To do that, your air speed has to be pretty fast, don't allow the reed vibration to sag, and keep your abdominal muscles SET FIRMLY. Not so that there is any strain,but I should be able to hit you in the belly-button area with my fist (mildly) and not cause you any hurt or pain. Good luck and have fun! :D

[alsdiego]

I've had similar problems, which have now decreased significantly since practicing relaxing my lower jaw, while maintaining lower lip pressure with the side muscles.

Try this: Suck your thumb as if it's a mouthpiece. Try to have the lower lip pressure approximate what you'd normally use when playing. Then, with your other hand, hold your chin and try moving your jaw up and down. If it feels like a death grip, your lower jaw is too tight, and you will automatically bite. Also your vibrato will sound very pinched, particularly in the higher registers. Concentrate on relaxing that lower jaw! When you practice vibrato, think relaxed lower jaw, and the vibrato should flow effortlessly. Once you begin to get it right, it becomes very clear.

Al

[sjabariiii]

I seem to be having considerably more success on tenor, maybe because I picked it up recently and have fewer bad habits... what's the note for the mouthpiece exercise on tenor supposed to be??

thanks,
ANDYJ

[MS]

Concert G just below the concert A (880). One octave and a fifth above middle C on the piano. That should get you in the ballpark.