Mk VI Low-A Alto - how many were REALLY made?

[bari_sax]

Does anyone have any ACCURATE information about how many Selmer Low A altos were made? How many with both the low A and the high F#?

Enquiring Minds want to know.

[Razzy]

Heh, enquiring minds... I wonder if that was a spelling mistake or intentional irony :lol:

[paulwl]

This was discussed on the big bad usenet several years ago (alt.music.saxophone). All signs pointed to a production run of about 200.

[bari_sax]

Heh, enquiring minds... I wonder if that was a spelling mistake or intentional irony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>*yes*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
All signs pointed to a production run of about 200.
That is the figure I heard from a curator while visiting the National Music Museum at the U. of S.D. about 12 years ago. Can't remember her name, though. There were also a very small number built with both the low A and the high F#. Fewer than two dozen according to the curator.

BUT IS THERE ANY SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION FOR THESE FIGURES??

A number of people reportedly have seen / repaired a significant number of low A altos, and have expressed the opinion that if only 200 were made, how could they have personally seen so many?

Anybody know if Selmer kept any kind of record of these horns?

(Yeah, Sure, I could just write to Selmer and ASK, but what fun would THAT be?)

[AMASAX]

this topic was beaten to DEATH on the old SOWT forum, you'll probably never get any kind of definitive answer.
Selmer either didn't keep this breakdown in their production records, or is not interested in digging through 20 yrs of files to get an answer.

However, FWIW, I think these were made from the late 1950s-1970s, so the potential certainly exists for more than 200 to have been made.

I personally think there were many more than that made, but have nothing 'concrete' to back that up with. And, btw, nobody else has anything 'concrete' to say there were only 200(or any other number, for that matter) made.

Is interesting to note that if there were only 200 in existence, then it would be amazing the high percentage that have popped up on ebay over the last few yrs...

[AMASAX]

oh, btw, before you hot and bothered about just how RARE your particular low A alto is(with or without F#), remember that it's supply & demand out there. Better question would be to as what the current demand is for these horns; ANSWER: NOT MUCH.

Anybody who wants one has had numerous chances to buy one(i got mine about 3-4 yrs ago), so don't get too worked up.

I see this frequently in regards to the 'Leblanc System' altos that pop up occasionally...there were > 1100(don't know top number, but have seen serials > 1100), and even tho those are interesting horns, there is ZERO demand for them. People get bent outa shape when they can't get "what they're worth" when selling, but fact is, a Leblance horn ain't gonna get big buck$ (and yes, i got mine a while back, am not in market much for one of these).

Wasn't that many yrs ago one could pick up a Selmer SBA tenor for under $1000, but now that these are a hot item, you can forget that...

Supply vs. demand...

[saxtek]

They're still making low A altos at Selmer. Ornette Coleman is playing a white Super Action Series II low A.

[MojoBari]

Cool info. I went looking for a pic and found this:

http://www.ejn.it/mus/coleman.htm

[Mike Ruhl]

Hard to tell what vintage Coleman's horn is from the pic. I just posted the question "are low-a altos available by special order?" on the Selmer message board. Maybe they'll resond in a year or so... :wink:

[bari_sax]

Low A on post Mk VI altos? Haven't heard of that before. Does anyone here actually own one or have a clear and identifiable picture?

I had always heard (and you know how reliable THAT is) that the low-A option was introduced very late in the Mk VI run because of the popularity of the low A bari, and that Selmer was trying to push it as a new gimick that you just couldn't live without. Kinda like when people were dumping beautiful old Conn and Mk VI and Buescher baris for next to nothing because they had been made "obsolete" by the new New NEW low-A horns.

Dealers wouldn't stock them, nobody wanted to buy one without being able to play it first. Sales were few and far between and the option disappeared with the introduction of the Mk VII. Basically, they flopped in the market.

That's what I have heard, anyway. And it's worth the paper it's printed on. :roll: :roll:

[MonchMan]

Found this on www.saxpics.com/

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/selmer/mark_vi/alto/low_a/lacquer/20517x_multi.jpg

FWIW

[Pete]

I'm one of the folks that do think that the number is significantly higher than 200. The main reason I believe this is because not only do I have pictures of about 20 different horns, I've actually played one -- and I wasn't even looking for it.

After four years of searching, I finally have 1% of all SML's pictured on my website -- and they made 27,000 horns. I find it difficult to believe that I've seen 10% of anyone's production. (I've seen one Jimmy Dorsey horn in five+ years of searching and there's supposed to be more than 200 of these).

The information from Selmer (Paris) regarding these horns is contradictory and they will send you different numbers whenever you ask.

Allegedly, in addition to the modern production of low A altos, there are a couple of low A Mark VI tenors -- and possibly low A altos of earlier Selmer models. (I believe Paul Cohen's got a Selmer Modele 22 or 26 low A C melody.)

I wonder if the S80 low A alto (which I've heard of for a long while), is actually made with the Mark VI tooling ...

[Bootman]

The Low A altos can be good playing horns. It was a High F# horn too. I owned 115K model for a while but eventually let it go in favour of my Buescher and Martin altos.

[rcwjd]

I had a low A Mark VI alto. I couldn't play it in tune to save my life. Nobody that tried it could either. I traded it for a soprano that I also can't play in tune - but since it is a soprano, at least I have an excuse. :lol: As a collectible, I guess they have some value. As a player's horn, it wasn't worth much to me.

[AMASAX]

i have some early 1960s Selmer catalogs that list the low A as an option, so i know this thing was *not* a 'late Mark VI' contraption. I suspect it was available in the 1950s, too, but don't have any late '50s catalogs to verify. Plus, options typically became listed in catalogs earlier in Europe than the US, so possibly those catalogs would show this.
I agree that this was most likely an outgrowth of the low A bari, but for whatever reason(s), never took off.

Guess we'll never know, but if'n you want one, they're out there...

I know Selmer made at least ONE gold plated low A alto w/F# :D

[Pete]

s/n 167xxx. It's on my website :).

Most references to the Low A horns I have come from Paul Cohen's Jan./Feb. 1993 article in the Saxophone Journal and his other research.

I quote the 1972 Selmer Bandwagon catalogue:

52A Selmer (Paris) Mark VI Eb alto saxophone: range to low A (C concert) and low A key for left thumb, auxiliary high F; articulated G#, high F and low C# adjustments; drawn tone holes; reinforced neck; power hammered brass keys; ribmounted mechanism; dome-shaped Nylon tone boosters; adjustable right hand thumb hook, patented tilting Bb spatula; adjustable felt bumpers on low Bb, B, C and C# keys; multiple coat gold lacquer finish; Selmer (Paris) C* mouthpiece.

52AF Selmer (Paris) Mark VI Eb alto saxophone: same features as 52, but range to low A (C concert) and low A key for left thumb; high F# key and tone hole for a true high F#.

The newest Mark VI Low A Alto I have on my website is s/n 224xxx -- it's also two-tone (relatively rare) and has an altissimo F#. The oldest is s/n 106xxx and doesn't have an altissimo F#. (This doesn't count the few pics I haven't published yet.)

The Selmer flyer listed on the Saxgourmet website (http://www.saxgourmet.com/history.html) doesn't have the low A altos listed, but it does list the altissimo F# option.

[Randall]

meruhl, about the Selmer sax board...good luck getting Miles to answer.
Any time he gets a question that he can't answer or wants to avoid answering, you get the, "this board is not for answering specific questions"...song and dance routine....
I asked about the availability of a Series II or III low A alto and that is the tune he hummed....

As to numbers, I was told by the Selmer rep in Japan that there were anywhere between 3~400 made. I have owned 2, played 4 and know of at least 8 others here in Japan- not to mention all the ones I have seen on Ebay.
Both of the horns I have had are High F# models and the one my bud has is not.

[Mike Ruhl]

Yeah, I know. He and Selmer are a good fit.

[Joe]

I've tried 4 low A altos and gigged with a guy (Randy Lee) that played another. They ranged in serial numbers from the 80K's to the 160K's. Only one had the high F#. Most were subpar, being somewhat stuffy. One had some serious tuning issues. I'm sure Randy's played well because he sounded incredible on it. He ended up selling his low A about 10 years ago.

One of the best altos I've ever played was the 160K low A alto with a high F#. It had a fantastic sound with excellent tuning and response. Problem was, even though I couldn't see any signs of a relac, it had a really light, clear (nothing close to French assembled Selmer) colored lacquer with nickel(?!) keys. I just couldn't reconcile myself to play on something that looked like a student Conn horn.

Back to the topic, just based on my personal experience and exposure, I would think the number would be more like 500 than 200. I'm not really sure it makes much difference to the sax playing world either way, though.

[MojoBari]

I know a guy in Atlantic City that has a low A Mk VI bari sax that has the nickle keys and key guards. Makes you do a double take... especially since he plays a vintage red Runyon on it.

[MonchMan]

I thought that Conn professional models gained nickel plated keywork in 1955.

I might be wrong though. :roll:

[Pete]

Quoting myself, from my website:

1955 (approximately): Conn introduced the 16M tenor and 14M alto Director models (with the "Shooting Star" engraving) and ushered in two new plating choices that were probably available on all the Conn line: lacquer body with nickel-plated keys (finish 25) and silver body with nickel-plated keys (finish 56). It is probable that all other finish choices were considered "custom order" after this date.

Selmer had several kinds of "two-tone" finishes:

* Lacquer with silver keywork. Very rare. www.saxquest.com recently sold a Mark VI tenor in this configuration and some other folks swear they have 'em.

* Lacquer with nickel keywork. Someimes called a "French Finish" because a lot of European professional horns were available in this finish. I've seen horns as early as the 22 with this finish -- but they may be overhauled horns.

* Silver plate with gold plated keywork. I've seen this all the way back to the New Largebore (an early model in the Super ["Cigar Cutter"] series).

* Silver plate with gold highlights. I've seen this on some Mark VI sopranos. Kinda kewl.

[Joe]

Saxpicks, out of curiousity, have you ever run across a Selmer that had clear lacquer from the factory? I mean, the low A alto had no visible signs of buffing and seemed in every way to be original, including even the lacquer line in the bell. I knew that the nickel keys were an option from the old catalogs I've seen, but I've never seen anything but the standard French and US colored lacquers. Do you think Selmer would have done this as a special order item?

[Pete]

IMO, Selmer used to do just about anything you wanted if you had the cash for it: I've seen VI's with modified keywork so they have forked Eb keys, altissimo D# trill keys, G# trill keys, etc.

Selmer definitely did experiment with some odd finish choices on the VI (such as the colored lacquers you mention), but I've not seen a "bare brass" horn with a clear lacquer finish from Selmer. I have, however, seen bunches of horns that have been delacquered by their owners: there used to be a lot of talk that delacquering your VI made it sound better.

Chemical delacquering doesn't always leave deposits ...

Now, if the person had a lacquer horn with nickel keywork, the nickel generally doesn't wear down, so you'd have a "clear lacquer" horn with nickel keywork/keyguards.

[1saxman]

The alto pictured with Ornette is a Mk VI. Can any of you 'experts' guess how I can tell from that fuzzy pic?

[Pete]

Well, considering I don't consider myself an "expert" (and the pic is kinda small), I'll bite. How can you tell? No altissimo F# key? "Introducing Ornette Coleman on the VI" banner in the background? :)

[Hurling Frootmig]

I'll go with:

a) You divined it through the Selmer gods.
b) The photo was taken prior to the SA 80's coming out.
c) The neck looks beat
d) You don't really know but it sounds cool to say you know. :wink:

[Pete]

I can make up stuff??? I didn't know I could do that!

"I've got a limited edition Bundy II alto here. $5000, non-negotiable. Played by some of the greatest musicians of our time -- and certificate of authenticity included. Protective anti-lacquer finish (you can tell by the flaking in the picture). Anti-intonation dampers included ..."

[Hurling Frootmig]

$5,000 for a Bundy II - what a deal. I bet you only take wire payments since you are in the Far East! :lol:

My other guess is that 1saxman actually took the fuzzy picture.

[AMASAX]

well, if'n you're thinking Ornette's horn is a Mark VI cuz of the front high F, remember Mark VII/Series I had the pearl, not the teardrop key...otherwise, i gots to knoweded...i can't make out much of anything on that photo... :?

[1saxman]

You can see just enough of the RH low 'C' key to make it as the Mk VI design. Starting with the Mk VII, this key was extended and squared-off. Plus, it has the round pearl for the high 'F'. You'll also notice the Mk VI octave rocker, not the wire key of the Balanced or Super. Finally, not related to the picture, it seems that the low 'A' alto didn't start until after the Mk VI model change and apparently ended with it. I picked out a tenor (130491) at the Elkhart plant in the spring of '66, and the guy who set the deal up tried a low 'A' alto. The alto could not be played in tune. Obviously some of them are okay, or perhaps guys just spent more time with alternate set-ups to make them work. Anyway, the only benefit I can see to the horn would be the possibility of an overall darker or maybe more resonant tone because of the extended bell. Other than that, I think the horn is mainly a collector's item in the category of 'Selmer's Flops', of which there have been a number. At least, Selmer is not afraid to try something new and stick with it until the bitter end.

[Morry]

A local player/friend of mine pulled out a Selmer low A alto that he just had put back in playing condition (sat up for many years), and he's considering selling it. What are they worth? If it's too rich for me, I may try to get the info to SOTW folk.

Man, when you hear that low A come rumbling out, it's pretty cool. 8)

[SteveS]

I had a low-A, high F# alto that was made in 1972. I bought it for $490 new when I was 15. The salesman pushed it, suggesting that you NEED the low-A to play music in concert C. :-) He also suggested that the additional brass gave it a more powerful sound.

Buffalo Bagels.

Didn't quite have the sound of a low-Bb Mark VI. Was not all that fond of it. Eventually sold it. Now I have a 186xxx low Bb Mark VI alto that REALLY plays!

[1saxman]

My tenor is a #186xxx, and it is a screamer.

[Pete]

Morry, I have no reason to think that if the horn plays in tune that it wouldn't be worth as much as any other VI alto in similar condition.

[Saxdude]

I used to play a 169,xxx mint alto with the low A and high F#. while certainly a beautiful horn, I noticed some intonantion issues around the high A and B notes. These just were not very centered and tended to be a bit sharp. One of the neat things about the MKV1 was the centered tone. The Low C and B tended to be a bit flat.

I basically sold the horn to a collector (who was amazed at the original finish - I was too paranoid to play it anyway). Being a small world, a fellow saxplayer came by another Low A alto (209,000 range) - without the high F# - guess what?...the intonation issues was still there (upper notes seemed to have a lack of a "center" and the bell key notes other than the low A seemed flat) I tried a java and a old meyer without much success. Both horns were in excellent playing condition with the key height correct (at least as compared to standard selmers of that era)

It is interesting how the bell length could affect other notes - thought it could be my playing (but I could keep a BA and SBA in tune...)[/img]

[SelmerSaksMan]

I would say that 200 is a load of crap, because, I have pictures of 6 of them in my hardrive that I found in about an hour, and another is that I have counted 19 on ebay so far in the last 6 or 7 months or so AND, the local airforce band ordered 12 of them about 35 years ago, and did not take half of an entire year's production, not to mention, that they can be easily found in most western countries.

[Perfect Pitch]

recently 2002 sold a low A alto in LA through a shop. Though it played well I constantly fouled my thumb on the low A key. It was also somewhat heavier than the standard alto. I think the shop got $2200 for it (85% lacquer, no case)

[SelmerSaksMan]

Jesus! are there any more Low A VI's in your collection for 2200 dollars?

[Rudy]

Maybe low A altos are like the proverbial Christmas fruitcakes--there are only a dozen in the world, and people never eat them...they only get sent out to someone else the next year! ;) (IOW, maybe the handful of these altos in the world keep getting resold all the time. ;) )

I only checked this thread since I was browsing eBay and happened across a Low A VI alto. First time I'd ever heard of it, actually! (And I've owned a VII tenor for 23 years now...jeeeesh....)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2552325635&category=16 232

[CultureOfOne]

Just stumbled into this thread, and I note it's been dead a while (and perhaps it's better off). I've been playing a 52AF (229xxx - most recent mark VI low A I've ever seen) since 1990, and I swear by it. I paid $2200 CDN (which would have been reasonable for any VI). I found it quite by accident, when out looking for a pro horn. I tried everything in Montreal at the time, and decided I liked the sound and feel of this horn the most. I've tried a lot of horns since, and still stick by my choice. The low A allows for additional fingerings for overtones/multiphonics/alternates/etc. (I can even mute down to a low G). Intonation isn't perfect on any horn, and as with most, one adapts. Some of the notes have a fuller/richer tone for me than the 52/52F horns I've tried (specifically the low/mid D and G seem thicker/more resonant). I also rather enjoy the weight balance of it. My only regrets about the 52AF design: a) they should have used the same low note designs as the Mark VI baris (ie adjustable arms for closing the next highest key cup in cascading sequence) instead of the chosen low A armature (which must be bent or "re-felted" to adjust individual heights), and b) getting a replacement case for that sucker was a pain! I finally discovered that Walt Johnson had produced a Low A alto case design as a custom request for somebody, and they'd sold ~7 cases in total. I bought #8, and I've never looked back.

As for the rarity, I too have heard the "200 or so" figure bandied about regarding the 52A, and there were supposed to be only a dozen or so of the 52AF model in addition. That being said, the same source also claimed they were all made in the 130xxx - 170xxx range, which clearly wasn't the case. I suspect the 52A and 52AF models were made-to-order/custom jobs, so they're probably pretty rare all the same. Clearly the typical Mark VI model 52/52F isn't as rare as many used to claim either. For me the value of the horn isn't in its rarity, but its sonority and playability. You can have a one-of horn that sounds like crap, or a one-of-millions that sounds beautiful. Musical instruments are supposed to be made to make music, not collect. From that standpoint, I value my 52AF greatly, no matter how many were made.

The only other vintage low A altos I know of were the Allen Loomis horns (of which there were only 6 produced) and the conn-o-sax (which doesn't really qualify strictly as an alto sax). I've never heard of the low A Mark VI tenor before, but I'd love to try one (not that I'd give up my '36 BA for it), and I was unaware they were continuing to produce the low A alto in newer models. Rumor has it Yanagisawa experimeted with a low A soprano design at one point (keyed low A to high G or G#), but it never passed the prototype stage. Anybody have any further insight into these unic-horns?

/B{>

[KMR]

I dont know how many were made but I have a feeling that it HAS to be more than 200. WHY?

Because I own 2 and I know of 3 others within 30 miles of me. I live near a big city but it is not the centre of the saxophone world, and I dont know every sax player in the area.

There were another 2 on Ebay in the last two weeks in the Uk.

If anyone wants one Im selling one of mine.
Original lacquer, fully engraved, high Fsharp. £2,000 UK pounds

KMR251@aol.com

[AMASAX]

let's beat this dead dawg some more :)

see my other comments on this post:

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10863

[romanbs]

Maybe there should be a separate forum to track these rare horns.
I'm in Los Angeles and a local guy who plays mexican music (Norteño- sax , accordion, 12 string guitar, bass, and drums) actually had or has one. Last time I saw him play he had a regular alto.
Before I knew it was alto with LOW A, I thought it was a C melody because of it's size.
On one of his album covers he's pictured with his Low A alto w/ high F#.
This guy is awesome on the sax. So far I haven't been able to play his style.
http://home.earthlink.net/~roman77/generalphotoalbum/

[safesax98]

I have a low a mark vi,and very happy with the tone and intonation.I also have a mark vi b flat. i purchased my low a about a year ago for 3000.00 and would be glad to buy any i could find for the same amount(in good shape with original laquer) . THe only problem with the horn is the bell got in the way of my bad technique. the little finger and ring finger would hit the bell. Ive since corrected that. I LOVE MY HORN>