Bottom lip survey

[Christian W]

My survey question is:

Whether or not you know that your embouchure is good or bad, right or wrong, tight or relaxed, or anything else - could you please answer the following questions:

1. When you play for more than 3 continuous minutes in any and all registers of the saxophone do you get a sore bottom lip caused by your bottom teeth?

2. If you answered "yes" to question no. 1, then I know what your answer to this question will be, but if you answered "no", please do the following exercise: Play for over 3 continuous minutes high and low, then stop playing and look at the inside of your bottom lip in the mirror. Do you have any kind of mark on the inside of your bottom lip? Anything at all - I know you don't get any pain here when you play, but is there any kind of mark at all, like when you might get a mark on the palm of your hand from resting it on a patterned surface or anything.

[MS]

1) No
2) nothing visible in mirror, however my tongue can tell where the teeth fit when I run it inside my lip.

Conscious traing on my part over many years. about age 30, I had shattered sharp bottom teeth. had them ground down, but during that time, I learned to play with most of the resistance in the mouthpiece reed bolwing set up, and to REALLY CONTROL AIR. Also learned the value of voicing to get out high notes (altissimo). I generally play 4 or 5 hours a day, so support muscles are in pretty good shape most of the time. I have also learned to do a fair amount of reed adjusting, so I maintain three or four reeds with varieties of blowing resistence to match my energy needs on a particular day.

What are you wanting to determine with your survey?

[Ritchie]

1) no
2) no

Just like MS said, practice and control.

[kcp]

1) No. I get that after 3 continuous hours of playing though
2) No. It's on the outside of the lip that I get when I do.

[disgruntleddave]

1) no
2) no

[Christian W]

Ok - this is very interesting - I realise in re-reading my original post that I may have biased "having a mark" on the inside of your bottom lip, as something that is negative or a result of pain or a bad biting embouchure. I just want to clarify that I am not talking about a mark that comes as a result of pain or a badly formed embouchure, but rather any kind of mark what so ever.

I also should say that you should check to see if you have any kind of mark or indentation their before you start plaing as well. I have found in my investigations that many people who have excellent, unchanging, relaxed embouchures, capable of playing the full extended range on all horns, actually have a permanent indentation inside their bottom lip. It is an indentation of where their teeth sit when they play. This mark may or may not go away if they stop playing for say 12 months, but I am just curious as to what this mark is. Is it a callous?

And so, I have another two questions for those of you who have already answered the survey, and also for those of you who will answer it after I have left this post.

If you say you can see no mark on the inside of your bottom lip, my next questions are this -

3. Do you have this permanent indentation on the inside of your bottom lip that is present even when you have not been playing?

4. Would you say that this is a result of the fact that you have been playing for many years, and you play for a long time each day, and therefore at some stage in the past a callous has actually formed on the inside of your lip which prevents you getting a newly formed "mark" on the inside of your lip when you play each day?

thanks everyone

[Christian W]

And I should also say that I agree with MS's original comments regarding proper diaphragm support and voicing the high - absolutely agree on that.

[Docax]

1. No.
2. No. But like MS My tounge can feel a sorta rough spot, that you can't see.
3. Yes and no. This "spot" is there even when not playing, but goes away after 3-5 days of not playing at all. (Heaven forbid!)
4. No, as the "mark" goes away in a few days.

[MS]

3) The red part of the lip is fatty tissue (no muscle). That appears to be the "spot" of definition: fatty tissue and below that muscle. I've spent a little time looking in a mirror, and find a fair amount of muscle developed in the chin area and in areas that effect the corners.
In Teal's "Art of Saxophone Playing" are diagrams of musclature of the face that comes into play when playing muscial instruments. Because of difficulty with sharp teeth early on, I've developed a sensitivity to muscle use in the past 27 years to be as efficient as I can, using teeth pressure sparingly and finding other ways to accomplish what some do with teeth pressure. I also play calrinet, where the muscle grip Is tighter. I also play flute which is a different animal, where there is not the option of using teeth pressure - if face muscles aren't developed,, - endurance is about 5 minutes. Voicing and air stream direction and speed are part of the flute.
So, I think the definition that I feel inside is where the muscle meets fatty tissue.

4) No apparent calous on the inside (other than a little scar tissue where as a kid I palyed a mps that was too open and a reed that was too hard, and didn't understant the importance of mucho air support, therefore some cuts and bleeding).
Inside no apparent difference in texture, other than the fatty tissue that corresponds to the outside red part of the lip cushion is more supple and flexible as compared to the tissue that contains muscle. On the outside, the area where the reed fits on the lip is a little firmer in texture.

If I can't play for a few days, I message my bottom lip between my teeth (gently chew), and do the Teal exercises for muscle tone.

I don't know if this makes sense to most people. Part of getting older is learning to play smarter. Youngsters have unlimited energy and muscles to spare, so endurance may not be a problem with most any method of playing on any equipment. I can have as much energy and endurance as a youngster, but for shorter spans of time - so I've opted for finding the most efficient ways of doing things for me.

Sorry - no callous for me. :D

[pepper]

no. but then i dont pull my bottom lip over my teeth, which is something i used to do, but have altered. is this normal ?

i find my new embouchure gives a little more flexibility in the sounds produced.

[1saxman]

I get a little soreness after two 4-hour gigs in two days, but I'm nowhwere near as tough as when I played six nights a week 20 years ago. Don't be afraid of a little blood and pain. Play long tones until your embouchure gives out every day and you'll get there.

[Razzy]

1. No. But it does happen after like two hours of straight practice. I used to be able to go longer; I stopped doing the Teal exercises for the embouchure and I think this is the culprit!
2. No
3. No visible indentation but the skin feels rough under the tongue there
4. Yes I think that is why I have this rough patch there, sort of a callous to the constant contact with the teeth. However I don't bite, and if I do begin to bite, I stop playing and give it a rest for a few hours or sometimes the rest of the day, and even then just do some simple longtones in the middle register to warm down.

Another explanation could be that two years ago, for one year, I played tenor about 2 hours a day with a very open mouthpiece and very hard reed, and this screwed me up badly. Since then I've been recooperating, coming back practicing alto and now playing all the saxes with almost equal facility (though I still prefer alto). However I somehow think I'd still have this rough patch/callous skin there if that hadn't happened. I think it's more a result of constant contact of the teeth on the lower lip, just sort of vibrating against it from the reed. Nothing to worry about really, my lip feels very "in shape" actually 8)

[guitarbob]

My survey question is:

Whether or not you know that your embouchure is good or bad, right or wrong, tight or relaxed, or anything else - could you please answer the following questions:

1. When you play for more than 3 continuous minutes in any and all registers of the saxophone do you get a sore bottom lip caused by your bottom teeth?

I just started playing sax again after a 20+ year layoff, so yes, big time.

2. If you answered "yes" to question no. 1, then I know what your answer to this question will be, but if you answered "no", please do the following exercise: Play for over 3 continuous minutes high and low, then stop playing and look at the inside of your bottom lip in the mirror. Do you have any kind of mark on the inside of your bottom lip? Anything at all - I know you don't get any pain here when you play, but is there any kind of mark at all, like when you might get a mark on the palm of your hand from resting it on a patterned surface or anything.

In the 60's and 70's I had a tooth on bottom that stuck up above the others and had the teeth next to it overlapping. I had this fixed many years ago. Before it was fixed I would actually bleed from gigging more than a few days in a row. Now it just hurts, no visible marks.