New Selmer Reference 54

[BillC]

Thanks

[Dirty Dave]

Like, "Thanks for makin' it"?

[Gandar]

Or more like, "Thanks for information you will give me about this horn"?

[BillC]

Like, I had a post, but after reading some comments and realitively good advice here, I chose to shorten it a bit....

I've played a lot of junk horns over the years and this is the first of what I deem a good sax for my personal consumption - (I haven't received it as yet so I'm surmising considerably but anxious to get it in my hands!) I've read here VERY MUCH...

again - Like, Thanks

[BillC]

Well, Yes I have a question or two...

Noting that some of you have been playing this horn for a while, I have been anticipating the possibility of some initial problems with this 'factory new' horn. I have read numerous times here that Selmer is sort-of lax about their set-up on new saxes. What should I look for in that area? The neck opening tolerance is questionable as I read also...

What is involved in the 'set-up' of this new sax? Should I find a local pro or tech to check it over for me? I purchased it from Pro Winds, who seem a very reputable outfit, and they advertise that their instruments are checked.

Thanks for more good info...
BillC

[BillC]

Come now, surely someone here has bought a new Reference 54 sometime in the recent past. I read lots of pros and cons about the horn, it's neck, correct mouthpiece to use, etc and about the factory delivery of new ones. Anyone ever 'set up' a new one?

[woodwindmaster06]

Ive bought one about a month or 2 ago and am very happy with it I have not yet began to start messing with necks and new mouthpieces for it but will start at the end of the year once I get done paying of the ref54.

[larrys]

I've had my Ref 54 for about two years. It's a great horn, I've come to like it better than the MKVI I've owned since '68. My horn required some set up and a series of adjustment to make it right. Selmer doesn't send them set up correctly. One day that's going to come back and haunt them just like it has the auto manufacturers. Buy yours from someone who can set it up correctly or plan on taking it to a really good tech for set up. It's my favorite tenor. I just wish they'd make a silver plated version.

[BillC]

Well Guys and Goils,

My sax will be here tomorrow (17th) so I'll either be back for lots of info or I won't be back for a while... (I'm actually hoping for the latter :D ) But like Groucho Marx said, "I like my ciger too but I take it out once in a while". (He was actually talking to a woman on his TV show that had many, many children.) Maybe not a good parallel, but I'm sure you know what I mean. :wink:

Thanks again, and again,
Bill C. (New Selmer Ref 54 Owner - Player!)

[Roger McWilliams]

BillC, new Selmer Paris horns may need some pad adjusting, et cetera on arrival after shipping. My experience suggests that you play the horn a few sessions to begin getting used to it. Your fingers need to get used to the right compressional forces to close the pads. Selmers tend to be a bit stiffer than some others. Same for mouthpiece end, some user familiarity must develop.

After several hours of playing, you would be well served to have the horn checked out and adjusted by a competent repair technician. You may need to ask around some to find the right one for your needs. There is a range of quality in repair technicians and a range of their experiences which will help you decide the type of person you want working on your horn. It helps if you can ask some top pro players in your area or university faculty sax professors.

After that first adjustment, I've only needed to return about every six months for checkups and preventive maintenance on my Selmers. In the first six months, the pads have a coating on them which may make the G# pad stick. I have found a lightly pressed upon new dollar bill wiggled in the pad/tone hole clears it up for the few times it occurs and then that problem goes away, so that no pad dust or such is needed.

Happy playing!

[singlereed]

I bought a new one, selecting one from a couple of examples, and from some other models too (note I saw two literally unplayable Ref 36s). Mine was well-made and trouble-free over a year or so, I think the design is sound. Whether a new one you find will be set up well is a bit of a lottery, although friends in the trade tell me selmer have got over a lot of problems caused by taking on and training new staff. The other part of the equation is whether your dealer really checks it and adjusts it. Unless it is a total lemon (in which case they should send it back), you shouldn't have a problem. There has been some debate about sloppy tolerances on the neck bore which leads to differences in playing resistance, certainly mine was a bit hard-going. In case you wonder, I replaced it with a pristine Mk VI.

[BillC]

The Reference 54 arrived Tuesday as promised. I was sort-of stunned when I opened the case, this is very different looking and I'm not sure of it as yet. That is; I'm not sure I like it. One thing about it is that you can really see the keywork due to the flatness of the finish - unlike the glisten of a polished bright and laquered sax that blinds the vision somewhat.

The sax plays OK and sounds good but it needs some TLC to get the lower notes out - sorry to say. I'm using the S-80 C* mp and tried 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 VD reeds - the softer seemed best. I made a direct comparason to the sax that I have been playing for the past few years (YTS-52) by standing them side by side and playing the same thing alternately between the two. The rich, full sound of the Reference 54 makes the Yamaha sound like a kazoo. I was very surprised by that, I thought the Yamaha sounded pretty good only days ago...

There is a question about the sax to those who own this Ref 54. Do you have engraving on the bow connection rings that shows in the picture on the Selmer web site? This one has very simple turned rings with two grooves in them. Not like the photos!

One thing in its favor is that I have always had difficulty with those same low notes on the Yamaha - I'm thinking that I need to consult a pro about this problem. Maybe a lesson or two again while in the notion, certainly may do me good! Maybe I can relate this problem here and get a few pointers from some of you tenor players, I'ld be glad to kick in a bit of renumeration if necessary.

I'm early to bed tonight, I was 'busy' with the Selmer until 1:30 AM this morning and it was a long day at work today.

Thanks,
Bill C. (Virginia)

[Morry]

When I tried a Ref 54, I too found the low notes a little tougher to sound at low volumes. Air support seems especially important on these horns. There are some posts elsewhere on this site that list the optimum neck tip opening size. You might want to check that out. Certainly, a smaller than optimum tip can make the horn a little less free blowing. Overall, I loved the dark, smoky sound of it. I would guess that I'll own one in the future.

[BillC]

This 'vintage ' look grows on you. I'm beginning to have a chance of heart - I'm liking it. Pro-Winds is acceptable to a return of the Ref.54 for the Ref. 36 crossing shipments to keep things rolling, they're good folks, but I just may hear and not see.

Why would the lows be tough? I can 'play them down' but no way can I begin with a low note. It will be a falsetto. I read here that the reed tension should remain the same? Meaning; my embouchure should remain the same? I'm an embouchure vibrato so if I change that method I'm sunk. I can pull the lows by going to them from above and once there, they sound very pleasing but this is not so accommodating to a tune or style. I've found that I'm able to play sharp or flat a while with embouchure control until I have an opportunity to physically tune with the mp. But still, I have crappy lows.

I want to quit my day job and hit the road but without the low notes, my wife has another reason for me to keep working.... so sad.

Thanks,
Bill C.

[woodwindmaster06]

The look does grow at first I liked it but day after day I grow to love it more every day. I have owned it now for a couple of months now and I have not spotted a SINGLE FINGERPRINT, I love the finish, it will look new for a very long time. I have also tried the Z Yamaha, the 36, Series II, and the 54. The 36 I did not like as much there is less complexity to the sound. The series II was bad, and the Z was way out of tune so I picked from two they had at the store and I now own one of the greatest saxophones made a Reference 54.

[BillC]

woodwindmaster06, You are so right, no fingerprints. No fussing with it. You can spot this a mile away too, no question what we are seeing and hearing!

Thanks,
Bill C.

[singlereed]

I didn't have any problem with low notes on mine. Most saxophones leak, new ones included. Unless you have had your Yamaha checked in the last few months, it probably leaks too. I never really liked the look of my Ref 54 (it did have very simple rings as you said) and the 36 definitely looked better. However, when I tested some, the could of 36s they had in were both dreadful and the 54 I chose was so good, I saw past the silly antiqued look.

[CodyW]

I don't have problems with the low notes on my 54 either. You might want to take it to a tech to check for leaks. It will go from a decent horn to a great horn. The thing about the finish where you don't see fingerprints can be a bad thing. I don't know why everyone likes the fact that you can't see fingerprints. When you don't see fingerprints, you don't see where the acidic sweat from your hands are. So you might miss some spots where your hands were when you wipe the horn down. This is going to eat away at the lacquer.

[Roger McWilliams]

Low end notes can be more difficult if abdominal support is insufficient. They also can be difficult due to leaks in the horn. Further, if the horn is in tune, by mouthpiece placement, across its normal range with a relaxed embouchure, then the low notes will sound easier. If one is compensating for a poorly placed mouthpiece by substantial embouchure adjustment across the range, then low ends can be harder to initiate.

It's my impression that lacquer has not been used on new horns for some time. Someone please correct me if that is wrong. The chemical inertness of many new coatings compared to older ones suggests that fingerprints may not be a concern at all as far as coating deterioration. Can anyone give an example of coating damage due to external material contact on newer saxes? I'm not curious about joint issues from solder flux, just external attack of the newer finishes.

[marc]

BillC,
I bought my ref54 16 months ago. A fantastic horn in all respects and according to all semi-pros who tried mine.
When I received it, I had exactly the same problem as you : impossible to get low B and Bb out of the horn. I sent it to a tech.repair and the horn played like a dream when I received it back. Check with the shop, they should tune it for free ! You could already remove the neck and look through the horn while fingering a low Bb. If you can see some light coming in, then you have a leak for sure. As you had already some problems with low notes on the Yam, try to relax your embouchure, open your throat and make sure you use your diaphragm for air support.

[BillC]

This is a fantastic horn. I will do as recommended and give it to a tech because there are problems with the lows and the neck tenon is too loose (tightening the thumb screw to the maximum possible doesn't tighten it enough to keep it stationary). Sad for a $4K instrument to be delivered as this was.

The sound from this instrument is very pleasing and the more I play, the better it suits me. I thought seriously about exchanging it for the Ref. 36 but I'm standing pat. A tech can probably work this out for me.

I appreciate all the help.

Thank you,
Bill C.

[Dr. J]

I had the same problem with the neck screw not tightening enough when I got my ref. 36. The problem was solved by lubricating the threads of the neck tightening screw. I used Tri-Flow ( a teflon spray lube), but I wonder if cork grease would work just as well.

[Dr G]

If the neck tenon is too loose, the correct answer is to expand the tenon - not to crank down on the screw. A properly fit tenon will have an intimate fit from top to bottom in the socket. Cranking down the screw will not give the same results. It's worth getting it done right as it will give a beneficial result in response and resonance.

[Dr G]

If the neck tenon is too loose, the correct answer is to expand the tenon - not to crank down on the screw. A properly fit tenon will have an intimate fit from top to bottom in the socket. Cranking down the screw will not give the same results. It's worth getting it done right as it will give a beneficial result in response and resonance.

[BillC]

Dr J, and Dr G,

I tried the obvious first (what Dr J suggested) and by damned, it is stationary without 'cranking down' the screw as I was before. I'm well aware that these brass thumb screws have a definite weakness in tension and felt that this one may be ready to snap. A speck of oil on the threads did the trick. Less force is now required to tightened it up. OIL, geezz!

I need to 'light stick' the pads this evening to see what can be seen. A tech says that the F# - G# timing adjustment may be off a bit. Lets just see...

Bill C.

[DizzyMiles]

Hey there...

I have owned a Reference 54 now for about seven months. It was "Singlereeds" horn actually. Hey Steve !

It has been a joy to own and play. I did have to take it to my tech for some minor adjustments also. Low notes are not a problem at all. Even playing at very low volume. I am still working on finding mouthpieces that I like with it.

Wherever I go, and whenever others see it, they are thoroughly impressed by the look and sound of the horn. Personally, I find the look beautiful. Classy even. It stands out , and I find it easy to care for.

The sound is like no other horn I have played, and I wish I was a better player, so I could take advantage of it.

I did find, that after all my years of playing, that reeds can make a big difference. I dont know why it is so with this horn. But... there it is.

At the moment I am in the process of finally trying to buy a hard rubber piece for it. However, where I live, there are not a lot of options for trying new pieces. Any suggestions for a good HR Jazz piece ?

Happy playing to you all !

[woodwindmaster06]

I agree reeds do make a big difference on this saxophone, one day I play with a not so good reed I sound awful but when I switch to Hand Select Blue box vandoren I sound great.

[marc]

Hi DizzyMiles and woodwindmaster06,

Concerneing the reeds, I came exactly to the same conclusion, Vandoren blue box (2.5 for me) are the ones offering the best results. Alexander Superial DCs are also very good, but the problem if me is that the DC#3 are too soft and the DCs #3.5 are too hard ...

For the mouthpiece, the Van Doren Java T55 or T75 are excellent on the Ref54, as well as the Berg Larsen Gold Ebonite. For metal, I found the Jody Jazz ESP the best (check my WWW site for some samples), a kind of Link with more projection.

[woodwindmaster06]

marc what do you use for classical on your 54?

[BillC]

I've played a day or two now and find that the S-80 C does not work (for me) with the Ref. 54 at all, no matter what reed was used. I gave it all I had. A tech in Williamsburg found a minor problem with the Ref. 54 and made the repair; it now plays as advertised and the sax came to life with a Bari Nickel that I had purchased a few years ago.. So the combination is thus far: Bari Nickel 5* (will measure opening on a granite- looks like about .090-.100) and a 2.5(hard) Zonda reed. Playing softly makes sweet little difference to loud, it's all there. The hard (and soft) # 3 and #3 1/2 are more to my liking and will I try those now that I have a handle on this instrument. Also: I enjoyed the ease of start-up with these Zonda reeds.

I finally found my saxophone! Seems it will play it all... Damn, wish I could have afforded one of these horns years ago.

Bill C.

[CodyW]

What tech did you take it to?

[BillC]

The tech's name is Jeff Amory of Amory Music, (757) 229-8070

www.amorymusic.com

BillC

[BillC]

Well, I have played this 'machine' for a while now. I'm very happy with it. I cannot get over how velvety smooth it is to play, like it senses what you want to do. This is definitely a sax players sax, I cannot believe there is a better one made (I'm sure there is) but this Reference 54 is superb, quiet, and super smooth - like dancing with a fat girl...

Thanks,
Bill C.

[hardbop]

I have tried a couple of 54's and they seemed to be darker and more natural than my Super Action 80 I. I am trying to decide if I want to get this or go for a VI. I compared the 54 to a 1968 VI and the 54 had a better low register. I know the VI has better appreciation potential. Right now I am fence sitting.

[Morry]

If you're buying for investment reasons, buy the VI. Better yet, go for T-bills. Buy a sax for the sound!

[CodyW]

with owning a reference 54 and playing some VI's, i would say that the 54 play like a good mark VI, better than most. But i think there are some of those sixes that nothing can touch. So if you want a great horn get a 54, but if youve got time and patience, you might be able to find a better 6.

[Billy The Fish]

From the moment I first put my 54 in my mouth and blew while test driving a roomful of saxes, that was it. You just know when you have found the one for you, your soul mate, the love of your life. I am an old romantic - I do believe in love at first listen. I heard great VIs since, but whilst I can admire from a distance, I have no need to cast longing ears elsewhere - I always have my baby to come home to.

Billy The Fish (possibly in need of a sense of proportion :? )

[Brian]

I love my 54 ... but dancing with a fat girl??