C note sounds "Ugly" to me. Advice???

[MrMoose]

Hey all you saxy people! I'm still here with you all, playing away on my tenor every chance that I get.

I have a sound coming out of my sax that really bugs me too no end, and I am trying to figure out if I am causing it, or the sax.

Thinking back when I first started playing 6 weeks ago, it sounded bad then too, but being new I didn't notice it as much because 1) My ear wasn't used to anything and 2) the other notes were not THAT much better.

As I have been practicing, all the other notes were sounding clearer, brighter, smoother, louder, just great! But whenever I would get to the C note:space3: I would cringe when I was about to play it. It was sounding worse and worse. I just hated hearing it. It sounded sort of flat,? but mostly just soft, or unsupported, airy.

Last week, I noticed the other way to play the C note, with the left hand first finger and a right hand palm key. When I hit it, WOW............it sounded fantastic! I switched back and forth between the two ways to play C and it was a big difference. During practice for the next 2 days however, I was able to make the one fingered C note sound alot better, but not as nice as played the other way.

My Selmer 1244 rental was due for a checkup/ tuneup (it only costs me $5) so I took it in and told the tech guys about my ugly C note. They popped the sax out of the case, dropped a leak light into it, and 1 minute later said, "Yep, you have a leak in that pad." They also asked if it was new, and I told them the story about it, that it was almost new, and they said that they could do a few other things to make it play easier. Great! So 2 days later I picked it up and read that they had done the following:

Adj and Reg. (Huh?)
Recork lower stack. (What?)
Reglue 3 lower pads. (Ok, I know what that is, but not which pads exactly)
Remove shims. (Shims? What shims?)

I came home yesterday really excited to see/hear/feel what "easier to play" was like, but I was REALLY anticipating my ugly C note to now sound fantastic. I put it all together, stuck it in my mouth, fingered the C note and blew. Blahhhhhhhhhh. I would say that it sounded exactly as before. I fingered the other one and it sounded great still.

What gives? Any advice? If it's the sax, I either need to get it rectified before I commit to buying it in 4 months, or dump it for the Yamaha that I really want. If it's me........sigh.......then what in the world am I doing to that one lone note to make it sound that bad?

Thanks for your help guys!

MrMoose

[gary]

Try this for at least a week: play your middle C with your LH middle finger and then quickly switch to the fingering of your low C. Very slowly and securly go back and forth between these fingerings and match the tones.

When you can do this securly, do it also on the other notes between Bb and D. After a couple of weeks your C should be fine. If not...did you say you had a teacher?

[jazzbluescat]

...and could be that the felt on the C is worn/missing causing it to not close totally.

[Dave Dolson]

MrMoose:

ADJust and REGulate

Recork lower stack . . . the lower stack is the area on the center of the tube where the finger touches and pad cups are operated by the right hand. To recork means they replaced all the little corks in that area that determine how far a pad opens and how the mechanisms interact

Reglue three lower pads . . . true, we don't know WHICH three lower pads, but what probably happened was that the tech re-floated three pads to make them seal better

Remove shims . . . new saxophones are shipped from their last assembly point with cork shims in place so the key cups and levers don't bounce in shipment. They all must be removed before the horn is totally playable. Obviously, your horn still had shims in place.

If your C2 is STILL awful when compared to other notes, I suspect the tech didn't catch everything. I recommend that you hold the horn away from your body so that you can see all of the mechanisms as you operate all the touches and levers. Watch closely as you do that and look for any pad not closing or not opening when it should (or closing when it shouldn't). The middle C (C2) usually requires the pad immediately above it (b) be open while the pad immediately below it is closed when you press C2.

Because you are not an experienced player, this may seem more difficult than it is. Take your time and study it. When one note doesn't speak well, something is wrong. DAVE

[MrMoose]

Thanks guys!

Dave Dolson: Thank you for the explanation on the work performed on my horn. I wonder what shims were still on the thing anyway?

I took a good look at the valves opening and closing on the middle C note and they all looked good. So I jumped into practicing again this afternoon.

I started out by doing my usual long tones, but this time I did it like gary suggested, switching back and forth between middle C and lower C. Then I did it with the other notes between Bb and D, like he said. ( I am assuming he meant "Including Bb and D", and not just the notes in "Between Bb and D". Doing this seemed to help me get the middle C note to sound much much better. It did however seem like I had to doing "something" different with my embouchure, or throat, or whatever, to get the middle C to sound good. Is the middle C suppose to be harder to play than other notes because of something that I am unaware of? It kinda felt like I had to support it better, or blow it harder to get it to come out, kinda like the lower register notes. Am I making sense?

Anyway, I do think that it was in fact me making the ugly sound after all.:mrgreen:

MrMoose

[rob]

In the same vein, what is it with second finger C and octave key c (all fingers)?

It isn't just a difference of 'quality' but actual pitch. It seems to me. And not just on my horn. They don't sound the same pitch...

[MrMoose]

Yea, I don't know what's going on with my C notes. The one fingered C note sounds like crap again. It's driving me NUTS. I HATE the sound of that note. But if I do it the other way, it's great.

I did have it sounding pretty good last week, after much more practice on my sax. I don't know if I did something right or not, but now the ugly sound is back. I did change reed brand and strength recently. Maybe that caused me to go back to square one?

Anyone else think that their C note sounds much different than the rest? Or are you doing something different with your embouchure for that note to come out right?

MrMoose

[Morry]

That note is one that inherently sounds bad to beginner players. To get a pleasing sound from the left hand middle fingering of C2 just requires nice full column of air. When I haven't played tenor in a while, I notice how weak it sounds. If I playing C2 like low C, but just add the octave key, I get a nice tone that reminds me to put adequate air through the horn.

[MrMoose]

That note is one that inherently sounds bad to beginner players. To get a pleasing sound from the left hand middle fingering of C2 just requires nice full column of air. When I haven't played tenor in a while, I notice how weak it sounds. If I playing C2 like low C, but just add the octave key, I get a nice tone that reminds me to put adequate air through the horn.

Ok, yea. I think I figured out just what you are talking about tonight during my practice. Sometimes it came out nice, and other times it didn't. I did notice that I was opening up my throat more......... or something like that.

Thanks for the come back Morry!

MrMoose

[rob]

There must be, in genuine players, a muscle memory between the left thumb and the gullet which triggers an alteration in attack when the octave key is 'activated' Mr Sulu.

Us beginners have to develop that immediate reaction. Partly, I suspect, by overblowing C. Hitting it without the OK.

Would that help?

[MrMoose]

Yes, Rob. I would say that you worded that quite well. And I'm able to experience the feeling of it while I practice now. My mind seems to be very interested in what exactly is going on with my body while I make the sax sound GOOD. Then I try to remember it.

I'm getting there. I seem to have gone through quite learning curve in the last 2 weeks.

MrMoose

[rob]

Yes, Rob. I would say that you worded that quite well. And I'm able to experience the feeling of it while I practice now. My mind seems to be very interested in what exactly is going on with my body while I make the sax sound GOOD. Then I try to remember it.

I'm getting there. I seem to have gone through quite learning curve in the last 2 weeks.

MrMoose

See me, I came to the sax from whistling. I'm a classic Nuisance Whistler, and no-on will convince me that anyone who can whistle a 32 bar ballad cannot learn to do the same on a sax.

For me it was about linking the mechanics of the instrument to the intuitive process of using my mouth to produce sounds, which it already knew how to do from whistling.

Whistling rocks..