How much difference can the horn make?

[qurtrn10]

Question for all:

I've got a Bundy II. My parents got it for me from a pawn shop when I was 12 for $350.00. After playing it for a while, it still sounds darn good. I'm wondering how much difference people attribute to the horn in terms of tone, pitch, quality, etc...

I'm just wondering how much of a priority it should be for me to upgrade.

William

[1stchair]

I believe horn makes the smallest difference in sound..But in character it may make a difference..To explain what I'm saying is every horn has a characteristic sound to it because even like a production line horn is gonna have SOME small differenece to it. I think really the horn only adds a characteristic sound on top of your sound, I don't believe a horn can just make you sound totally different.

I think when people say something like "The Mark VI I have bought made me sound so much better or/and It makes me sound sooo good." It's mainly because a mark VI has SO Much character to the natural sound of the horn. Another thing that makes a horn really good is its tuning. Usually a horn has 1 or 2 notes you have to work around. When I test horns I tune to a G on 440 then go up scales consecutively. Most horns have atleast 3 or 4 notes on them that are sharp or flat. You know you have a good horn when it only has like 1 or 2 notes that cause a lil concentration to play in tune. I think that is what makes a horn really good.

[Billyfish]

(Almost) Everybody, sooner or later, owns a Bundy sax.

Although I have played quite a few, and traded around to pro level horns, I wish I hadn't sold my Bundy. Mine was a tenor. Great tone.

Keep it.. even if you buy a pro horn, The Bundy is great for outdoor gigs when it rains, or rough bars etc.. So what if it gets scratched etc.

Play it, enjoy ... Don't worry so much about what's on the side of the bell.

[saxmanglen]

Why did you double post half an hour apart 1st chair? :?

Perhaps a sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow dial up conection?:|

[JPSaxMan]

Must be that 1k connection...boy do I feel sorry for that guy, especially when I'm running 384k DSL (:-P)

[fballatore]

Must be that 1k connection...boy do I feel sorry for that guy, especially when I'm running 384k DSL (:-P)
Hahahaha 384k!!!!!!!!! (says the man on the cable connection....)

And just to stay on topic... the man (or woman) is mightier than the horn. If you can play, you can play. Different horns will give you brighter or darker sound, but sweetness comes from the player. If your horn is fine in terms of tone, pitch and works well for you great. But, if a better horn will make you feel better about yourself, then psychologically, it has to help your playing.

Frank

[JPSaxMan]

I love it when that happens...senior moment as a teenager :D

[SaxforGod]

For me the subject is best represented by thinking of cars...

What I mean is this: you could buy an american muscle car (used) and spend a little extra money making it as quick and as fast as a Ferrari and only be out about $25,000, but it will most likely never handle as well or be as easy to drive quickly as a Ferrari. Or you could go and buy that Ferrari for $125,000 (at least) and have a really great time driving really fast with little to no effort.

Now that is not to say that you will be a race car driver (pro sax player) simply be getting into a Ferrari (pro sax). Once you learn to drive (play) compitently at an amateur level, you will more easily be able to decipher/appreciate the benfits that come from such a fine piece of machinery.

In plain terms...easier altissmo, greater character to your sound (as stated earlier), perhaps better mechanisms/action, more comfortable ergonomics, etc. A pro level horn allows you to be the sax player you are without the horn getting in the way, and might even facilitate growth as you explore the added refinement of a pro sax.;).

[JPSaxMan]

I agree with a lot of what S.F.G. had to say.

I for years have played on Bundy II's, my own Armstrong (a pos by all standards), various crappy student Conn's, etc. I finally got myself a good tenor sax (Selmer LaVoix) and I can now finally play on a good bari (Yamaha 52). I want to within the next year get a pro alto (Selmer or whatever), a soprano (first time deal, so we'll see) and MAYBE look at getting a Serie III tenor (the black lacquer version that I always wanted). I doubt $$$ will permit for a bari sax, but if it does, a Serie II or maybe just a Yami 52 will be in order.

But yes, if you can't master the stuff on a decent horn (such as an operational Bundy or student horn), a pro horn certainly won't help. If anything, some young players find pro horns to reject them because it still takes a certain finessee to be able to tame a pro horn. 8-)

[benjamin1979]

for me it just like what car ur driving . any car will get u to ur destination. But if u have the budget why not drive a ferrari instead of honda.
I always believe the horn make alot of different. i mean alot!!! But is true that a "good player" can make every horn sounds good. Cos they are good!
For a beginner or intermediate player i personally think that try to get the best sax u can afford and make sure is leak free and with good intonation and solid horn.

[qurtrn10]

Thanks for the replies. I'm trying my hardest not to get offended by the car analogies, as thiese are what's in the garage right now...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/WilliamWalker/Stang/DSCF0322.jpg
&
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/WilliamWalker/Trans%20Am/DSCF0230.jpg

...don't worry, I'm not really offended.

William

[JPSaxMan]

*Jealous with envy*...:D

[Saxland]

I find the most important characteristics on a horn is ease of playing, quick compact response in the lower notes, (usually due to the J curve of the sax), intonation and tonal quality. I found a 1935 Conn 6M to have these qualities best, over most Mark vi's. (Although I did play once on a killer 1958 small bow alto Mark VI). I recently played on a Keilwerth student horn that I really thought was the cats meow.

I have a Buffet Dynaction tenor that has all the above qualites as well, and is very free playing. Its core is more spread but the response is there. I used to own a Buffet Evette made in the early to mid 1980's that had alot going for it.

[Fred]

One of the worst offenses with beginner instruments is that they are often allowed to get in poor adjustment because the player does not feel they are worth the investment of good maintenance. That's an understandable point . . . but it is also a self-fulfilling prophecy.

How many times does a player say in amazement how much easier the "New" sax plays . . . when their old one would have played just as easily with great pads and an overhaul. I'm not saying that every Bundy is worth a $400 overhaul . . . I'm just saying that proper playing condition is usually more important than the markings on the bell.

[R2D2]

There are so many variables and so many different ways of arriving at the same destination.

My daughter started off on a YAS 275 she was supplied by the school as a part of a achool scholarship for the first year on her sax. The second year, I hired a YAS 275 for her through the school for AUS $100 (too bad that was only available for one year). The instrument she received was a brand new YAS 275. The music director told me that the reason she received the new instrument was because she had demonstrated the first year she knew how to look after her instrument. Both were fine instruments for the task.

Toward the end of last year I bought her a new Yani A 901. That was the last time she touched the Yamaha. To my ear and hers, she sounded noticably better on the Yani and she always sounded good on the Yamaha. I think the extra $800 I spent on the Yani over the Yamaha was money well spent, but that is always going to be a very subjective issue, depending on the demand for the folding stuff. The Yani was my compromise, had I had the money I would have been prepared to spend more. However, I think there is a point of diminishing returns, spending twice the money over a decent horn, will not get you an instrument that is twice as good, IMHO. :?

Whilst a great player will always sound good on any instrument, I think the novices will find it easier to sound better on a quality instrument, whatever the brand may be.:|

[MSH4]

I started playing sax on an alto Bundy II. I liked the sound in the mid-range, but I could not play the highest and lowest notes in tune --- That's the main difference with a pro-level (or near pro-level) horn. I now play a Selmer AS-110 for alto and currently get much better intonation than I think I could ever have gotten on the Bundy II. That being said, I still have some recordings I made on the Bundy II that sound great in the mid-range --- a nice smooth tone that the AS-110 does not equal in that range.

[Joey the Saint]

I bumped into my teacher at a jam a few months back. He's a VI guy, and he was sounding great; he was up onstage when I walked in, and just killin' it. At the set break he came over, and I saw that he was playing a Bundy II. His VI was in the shop, and he'd borrowed the Bundy II from someone. I've been playing with him for years and I couldn't tell the difference.

[docformat]

I played for a few years with a Selmer Signet (without the s-brace) and was quite happy with it. It had a 'ballsy' tone. However I got the upgrade bug and as I had a bit of spare loot got a 32 Conn tranny (but kept the Signet as back-up). When I first got the Conn I played it with the Sig and although I could hear an obvious difference in tone wasn't blown away about the difference. However when I picked up the same horn after playing the Conn for 8 months I couldn't believe how much better the Conn was in every department - tone, intonation, response, build - everything. What really made me laugh was how far you had to push the G# pinky key down on the Sig - it felt like half a mile!

The point I'm trying to make is that the difference in quality isn't always something that you can appreciate straight away unless you really know horns. I'm of the general opinion that you should get the best horn you can afford, anyway.

[rogerb40uk]

For my 2c, the significant difference has to be in the quality and feel of the 'moving bits'.

I am sure that 'diminishing returns' comes in quite early with the rest of the 'hardware' and the sound, which is why good players sound good, and very little 'different', on just about anything they play.

And the difference between some of the relatively 'unknown' manufacturers and 'the big 4' is much less than price differences might suggest.
The less-knowns often 'try harder', too, when it comes to pre- and post-sales service.
(I can easily speak to the CEO of the company who made my alto, and he's always happy to advise and (usually) to just 'talk saxes' :) And quick to sort-out any problems.)

[jacobeid]

I have a bundy II alto and a series III alto and I would never in my life sell the bundy. It's a great backup horn/marching horn. I use mine for marching band and it serves its purpose very well. The only reason I like the series III better is because it's constructed better and it's easier to play in tune.

[baylistenor]

Wayne Shorter used to play one-on records with Miles and his own.