View Full Version : What Key Am I In??
If I'm playing 'Makin' Whoopee' on my alto, and I start
D E D B
(Another > Bride)
What key am I playing in?
And so forth.
Saxhound
01-14-2006, 08:39 PM
G on alto - concert Bb.
jazzbluescat
01-15-2006, 12:05 AM
That's cool, but F is the standard key, I think. :)
G on alto - concert Bb.
That's a great help
So Lover Man [DED G] and 'Body and Soul' [DEDED GG] would be the same?
How about 'Autumn Leaves' - GABflat Eflat ?
I'll get round to figuring out the whys in due course.
That's cool, but F is the standard key, I think. :)
the first note on the alto was.....
So Lover Man [DED G] and 'Body and Soul' [DEDED GG] would be the same?.Rob, you gotta be careful about that. Just because the first few tones of a tune are diatonically in one key does not mean that is the key of the tune. Many times a tune will begin with chords which are not in the overall key of a tune and then which gradually settle into the actual key as the tune progresses.
It's fairly common for a tune to END on the tonic note or chord. Although there are exceptions, this is usually the case. Eventually you'll be able to hear the tonic when listening or playing along.
Rob, you gotta be careful about that. Just because the first few tones of a tune are diatonically in one key does not mean that is the key of the tune. Many times a tune will begin with chords which are not in the overall key of a tune and then which gradually settle into the actual key as the tune progresses.
I can generally play a standard ballad by ear. If I can whistle it I can play it, and recognise the changes - or at least, know something is happening but ed up playing the right notes anyway...
I know when it sounds wrong.
What I don't know is what to call it in.
Can I know what to call it in from the first few bars?
groovesax
01-16-2006, 09:34 PM
The general rule is you can usually tell what key the tune is in by looking at the LAST note of the song, NOT the FIRST couple. MOST tunes will end on the tonic.
The general rule is you can usually tell what key the tune is in by looking at the LAST note of the song, NOT the FIRST couple. MOST tunes will end on the tonic.
I don't know that that's true (not saying it isn't, just saying I don't know that it is) but almost always the tune will end on a chord tone from the tonic chord, and if it's not the tonic note, you should be able to relate your last note to the tonic chord( i.e. hear if your ending note is the third or fifth (sometimes 6th or 7th) and find the tonic from there).
jazzbluescat
01-16-2006, 11:51 PM
The key is determined by the last chord in the tune, 95 percent of the time, not the last note. tsk
So if the last note of 'Whoopee' is G - which it seems to be -
"whoo-pee"
B - G.
Then it's in G on the alto?
Sorry for being so thick. I blame my brain.
This is helping me a lot, by the way.
The charms of musical theory are'nt as universally seductive as some musicians assume.
So if the last note of 'Whoopee' is G - which it seems to be -"whoo-pee" B - G. Then it's in G on the alto? Sorry for being so thick. I blame my brain.This is helping me a lot, by the way.The charms of musical theory are'nt as universally seductive as some musicians assume.Rob, I don't think giving you the answer outright is that helpful. I'd rather give you a process you can use everytime on (most) every tune. So-
When you get to the last chord, play a G major scale and let your ear tell you if this sounds right. If it does, sound the last chord again and play a G major triad against it. Again, if it sounds right, then you're in G.
If it doesn't sound right, play your G and see where it fits into the last chord. Is it the third?, the fifth?. When you can identify what degree of the tonic chord your note is, then by deduction you will know the root of the chord.
Gary,
I really appreciate your patience, but I don't think you appreciate the depths of my ignorance.
For instance, from "sound the last chord" - "Gmajor triad" - When I identify what degree of the tonic chord my note is ? When is a very good question.
I am musically illiterate, if not dislexic. My plan was to accumulate a range of certain calls for various standards, see what they had in common, and work it out for myself. Or at least, use those basic scraps of certainty to approach a more thorough attempt at negotiating the maze of musical theory.
So the hypothetical question remains, if you were to play 'Whoopee', and the first note you played was D (bottom D on the alto, that is) what would you call it to the rhythm section?
I hope this isn't too irritating, it's just the way I have to approach the problem. I will then be in a much better position to understand the terminology.
It does sound as if it's G though. Am I right?
So the hypothetical question remains, if you were to play 'Whoopee', and the first note you played was D...what would you call it to the rhythm section?
The alto is what is called a "transposing" instrument. That means that the names one gives, and the written pitches one reads and plays, is named differently than the other instruments in "concert pitch" (keyboards, guitars, string instruments, trombone).
An alto sax is written a major sixth above a concert instrument. So, if the piano and bass and guitar are playing their written (and sounding) C, the alto sax is playing its A (six tones up: C-D-E-F-G-A). The alto is playing its A but the "sounding" pitch is a Concert C.
Now the reverse. If you are playing a D, go down a major 6th to find the concert pitch. In this case, that would be an F. You are playing your D, the rhythm instruments are playing their F's.
jazzbluescat
01-18-2006, 12:34 AM
So if the last note of 'Whoopee' is G - which it seems to be -
"whoo-pee"
B - G.
Then it's in G on the alto?
Sorry for being so thick. I blame my brain.
This is helping me a lot, by the way.
The charms of musical theory are'nt as universally seductive as some musicians assume.
Forget the melody note for now, the tonic/root of the last chord of the tune/song determines the key that its in[97.5% of the time:)].
e.g. If the last chord is Gmaj7, then the tune is in G major, regardless of the notes, chords and keys that go on from the beginning to its end(Gmaj.7).
e.g. If a tune starts on a Dbmaj7 chord, and goes through every note in the chromatic scale, and every chord under the sun is used, and it ends on Cmaj7, then the tune is in C major.
What Gary's saying is: If you're in C major on alto sax, then the concert key is Eb major. When talking keys with other players, talk concert unless you specify "alto key."
Geez, I hope I'm not confusing you.
JBC, after reading Rob's next-to-the-last post, I'm not sure he's really talking about the key as much as the specific note on his horn, That is...if I play a D on my alto, what note do I tell the rhythm section I'm playing?
I'm so confused. :cry:
....and the first note you played was D (bottom D on the alto, that is) what would you call it to the rhythm section?.
You'd tell them F. Your D on alto is a concert F.
Rob, I think you'd do well to learn and memorize all the major scales. Everything is derived from the major scales. For example, when someone speaks of a "minor third," or "flat fifth," you first have to know what a major third or perfect fifth is, in order to know what that means. You'll know what a major third and perfect fifth is once you know your major scales. Just a suggestion......
JBC, after reading Rob's next-to-the-last post, I'm not sure he's really talking about the key as much as the specific note on his horn, That is...if I play a D on my alto, what note do I tell the rhythm section I'm playing?
I'm so confused. :cry:
If the tune you're playing begins with D, what do you say when the bassist asks 'what key?' - or the pianist. It could be where it ends - in this case G. But they're the same thing. The tune must be in the same key and only one key (unless it does a Cherokee on you).
That's why it's so important to know.
Rob, in some ways this is really the most germain answer here:
Rob, I think you'd do well to learn and memorize all the major scales. Everything is derived from the major scales. For example, when someone speaks of a "minor third," or "flat fifth," you first have to know what a major third or perfect fifth is, in order to know what that means. You'll know what a major third and perfect fifth is once you know your major scales. Just a suggestion......Having said that, regardless what your first note is, we have already said that you may not know what key you are in from it. My best suggestion in the narrow context you are asking is to tell the piano player what your first notes are and let him figure out what key you are in. I just don't think you've got enough knowledge at the moment to help him out. Just make sure when you tell him what your first few notes are, you are transposing from the alto to the concert pitches.
Let's put it this way.
You decide to play 'whoopee' and decide that the DED - B opening sounds cool.
What do you tell the crew?
I'm not trying to find out whether the first notes of a tune determine its key, merely what key you would happen to be playing in IF your first notes were the DED - B, and of course ending on G?
It can only be one.
First response in this thread, above:
G on alto - concert Bb.
jazzbluescat
01-19-2006, 01:31 AM
Let's put it this way.
You decide to play 'whoopee' and decide that the DED - B opening sounds cool.
What do you tell the crew?
I'm not trying to find out whether the first notes of a tune determine its key, merely what key you would happen to be playing in IF your first notes were the DED - B, and of course ending on G?
It can only be one.
That's Making Whoopee in G. :treble::space0::line1::space0::line3:
[If you're doing that on alto, it's in Bb concert, if you're doing that on tenor, it's in F concert.]:)
BlueNote
01-19-2006, 01:55 AM
Maybe this point has already been missed, or rather, suggested-
But wouldn't you be able to find the key of the tune (not in all cases, though) by just listening for the tonic note throughout the tonal center of the tune? (unless your rhythm section isn't playing the tonic whatsoever)
People seem to be over-complicating a simple concept.
That's Making Whoopee in G. :treble::space0::line1::space0::line3:
[If you're doing that on alto, it's in Bb concert, if you're doing that on tenor, it's in F concert.]:)
I think the general consensus is G.
I'm beginning to understand.
Now this is pushing it, but would that also place the D-opening 'Lover man' and 'B&S' in G?
And the version of Autumn Leaves which begins GABflat - Eflat would be in wot - Bflat or G?
See what I mean?
Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Rob - you're not going to like this answer, but do you know the saying about giving a man a fish and feeding him for one moment vs teaching him how to fish and feeding him for a lifetime? I know you're just trying to get going with all of thís, but you are asking the wrong questions. To illustrate:
"but would that also place the D-opening 'Lover man' in G?"
- no. It's in your F.
"but would that also place the D-opening 'B&S' in G?"
- no. In your C.
See what I mean?
You need a better process for finding the keys. There aren't any shortcuts.
Gary, thanks a lot. That's fine to be going on with.
I know it's the height of laziness and not to be encouraged, but hey, what was the internet designed for in the first place?
My dream is just a simple chart, in my notation, with a big letter alongside each number.
Maybe this point has already been missed, or rather, suggested-
But wouldn't you be able to find the key of the tune (not in all cases, though) by just listening for the tonic note throughout the tonal center of the tune? .
Actually, this is true, but I think maybe you have to train your ear a bit to get to this point. I went to the piano and played the opening to Makin' Whoopie, using DED-B, and, knowing the tune, my ear immediately led me to the G as the tonic. With a little experience, you can usually "hear" the tonic in most tunes.
I think rob is after a simple rule that will lead him from a random series of notes to the tonic, or something like that. Unfortunately, no such rule exists. You got to learn some theory, and be able to recognize cadences, etc. It's not a huge deal, but there are no real shortcuts, either.
As I said before, the surest method I know starts with the major scale and goes from there.
BlueNote
01-20-2006, 02:00 AM
Ok, so on the tune "Days of Wine and Roses", the last note of the tune is a G... which is the key of the tune.
BUT-
The last two bars of the tune look like so-
Go | A-7 D7
I guess in this case looking at the last chord won't help you much, but because it ends on the tonic, it is very obvious that that note is the key of the tune.
jazzbluescat
01-20-2006, 04:29 AM
I think the general consensus is G.
I'm beginning to understand.
Now this is pushing it, but would that also place the D-opening 'Lover man' and 'B&S' in G?
And the version of Autumn Leaves which begins GABflat - Eflat would be in wot - Bflat or G?
See what I mean?
Thanks again to everyone for your help.
You've lost me, you don't impress me as knowing enough to ask what you want to know. Later Man..
jazzbluescat
01-20-2006, 04:35 AM
Ok, so on the tune "Days of Wine and Roses", the last note of the tune is a G... which is the key of the tune.
BUT-
The last two bars of the tune look like so-
Go | A-7 D7
I guess in this case looking at the last chord won't help you much, but because it ends on the tonic, it is very obvious that that note is the key of the tune.
Isn't that the turnaround? Hell, you don't count/use the turnaround to determine the key...I mean, not normally.
Isn't that the turnaround? Hell, you don't count/use the turnaround to determine the key...I mean, not normally.JBC - I think BlueNote is assuming Rob is going to take the info literally. That is, he would not know what a turn-around is, only that (visually) the D7 is the last chord of the piece...which is actually underscoring your observation about Rob's grasp of the material. ;)
You've lost me, you don't impress me as knowing enough to ask what you want to know. Later Man..
Fair enough.
I really don't know anything.
But if I knew what you called a tune when you played it, I would be able to establish some common ground for myself.
I might be able to hear the 'tonality' as someone else suggested.
I have a very long 'database' of tunes that need their key 'fields' checked.
Ok, so on the tune "Days of Wine and Roses", the last note of the tune is a G... which is the key of the tune.
BUT-
The last two bars of the tune look like so-
Go | A-7 D7
I guess in this case looking at the last chord won't help you much, but because it ends on the tonic, it is very obvious that that note is the key of the tune.
Bluenote.
Thanks for your help.
I gues what I'm really asking is that you get out your alto, play 'Whoopee' with the DED- B opening, and ask yourself what key you're in.
I'm not looking for a secret code for discovering all keys.
Imagine you're dealing with a parrot. That's the level of musician I am.
Just a thanks to everyone for your patience and help.
I think I can just about see what happens.
On a sax, 'chords' are like an exit roundabout from a major freeway.
You have a choice of exits, each heading in a diifferent direction - but some are dead-ends, and some take you through twisty, leafy country lanes, and some take you over mountaintops and some are simply short freeways to another exit. Where more choices have to be made.
luther66
02-05-2006, 10:01 PM
Hi,my singing teacher(not sax teacher)told me around 8 years ago that the last note is usually the key the song is in,if you have a 16 note range and you have a tenor voice(like me),usually tenor voice is lower B to top C in the second octave,i used to pick songs that ended in my suitable range, as long as they didny go above C in the second octave.
luther
Hi,my singing teacher(not sax teacher)told me around 8 years ago that the last note is usually the key the song is in,if you have a 16 note range and you have a tenor voice(like me),usually tenor voice is lower B to top C in the second octave,i used to pick songs that ended in my suitable range, as long as they didny go above C in the second octave.
luther
In that case, my 'whoopee' is in G.
I mean IT IS really is in G...
er.. Whoopee.
Is there a key of Me?
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