intonation

[fusionjazzmadman]

What is the best way to learn how to get the upper register of a soprano in tune, i'm a beginner on soprano and i'm working with longtones, apreggios, scales and stuff, but i need more advice, how did you learn?

[Ritchie]

Eartraining. If you can hear how out of tune you are, only then you can learn how to correct it. The soprano is so hard to play in tune because in its range subtle changes have great effects - soprano is not exactly out of tune, it is just very flexible in its tuning. This can be an advantage or disadvantage, most often it is the latter. To make it easier use a less flexible setup (narrower tip opening, harder reed).

[singlereed]

Spend some time with an electronic tuner to find the best spot for the mouthpiece. Play first, then look at the tuner otherwise you will be bending it into tune. Of course, there is a degree of adjustment to do, but if you start too far off, you won't be able to manage it - get a compromise on several strong notes in the bottom register (say, low C, G and middle C#) and some way up the second octave.

Mark the neck cork, this will give you a good starting point.

Playing octaves and arpeggios helps you to pitch the higher notes - rather like playing altissimo on any sax, you really need to hear the note before you play it. I read somewhere, "the tone and semitone octaves cannot be assumed to exist on soprano" and there is some truth in that.

Also, play with others or playalong CDs, just to heighten your awareness of the intonation - when you play on your own it is easy to play out of tune at the top and not realise, I think that goes for all saxophones.

[Dave Dolson]

Soprano is my main saxophone - and first saxophone (I started on it when I was 16). I've owned sopranos that were just plain out-of-tune, and no amount of embouchure work or mouthpiece changes would help the beasts come to pitch over the entire horn.

But most of my horns have good scales - and where they are weak (yet playable), I can bring them to pitch with embouchure. Even my best sopranos (Buescher TT and Yana S992/SC902) will play flat upstairs unless I conciously tighten my embouchure and do my part. When I do that, the horns play spot-on over their entire range.

I agree with Ritchie - EAR TRAINING. It isn't enough to finger the note and blow the horn - and this is what I tell youngsters. You must play each note so that the note is true to the scale. Upstairs, you must tighten your embouchure (especially your throat) - if your horn is a good one, it will come to pitch with proper embouchure. DAVE

[Stencilman]

Dave,
I don't want to dis anything you've said here, cause when it comes to soprano, you da man :-). I agree with everything you said except that I believe that the mouthpiece can have much to do with tuning problems.

In my limited experience, I have found that a mismatched mouthpiece can cause the high notes, say above G, to be either flat or sharp. For instance, on my beloved Martin soprano, a Selmer C* plays uncomfortably flat up there and very little can be done to get those notes in tune. On the other hand, a Dukoff D series tends to be a tad sharp while a large chamber Dukoff L series is very sharp. A high C natural sounds a C# with a relaxed embouchure with a large chamber mouthpiece.

I don't know this for sure, but I believe that modern sopranos are not as sensitive to mouthpiece chamber volume. I've test played a number of modern sopranos and while they still had variations in tuning up top depending on the mouthpiece, they weren't as sensitive as my Martins and Bueschers.

I think all of this makes it difficult for someone new to the soprano to determine if tuning problems are their embouchure/throat, the mouthpiece or both.

Fusion,
Try reading Paul Coats' article on the SOTW site about soprano tuning. If you still have trouble, I would recommend that you try several mouthpieces to see if your tuning tendancies change. It would be best to take an instructor or an experienced soprano player along to help you. BTW, I really like the Rico Graftonites for this type of testing since they offer different tip openings and chamber sizes. The A chamber is large, B is medium and C is small. I found that I can't use the A chamber on any of my sopranos but B works pretty well. It makes a decent cheap backup mouthpiece (I think I get mine for $12).

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue.

[Razzy]

I don't know this for sure, but I believe that modern sopranos are not as sensitive to mouthpiece chamber volume. I've test played a number of modern sopranos and while they still had variations in tuning up top depending on the mouthpiece, they weren't as sensitive as my Martins and Bueschers.

That's precisely what I've found, and not just on sopranos: any modern sax. On a related note, modern saxes are also less altered tone-wise by other non-sax factors, such as shape/facing/size/etc. of the mouthpiece, reed strength, cane, and the like, and even the ligature. That's why I like the Mark VI. For me it has been the most versatile horn simply because any mouthpiece I put on it will completely change the way it sounds, but there is still that inherently powerful and encompassing CORE to the sound. This also makes it more sensitive to such issues as tuning relative to mouthpiece chamber type and size; and thus the inherent reason that a lot of players prefer the modern horns. Selmer has, though, seemed to somewhat continue its tradition of making more versatile horns: I find that the modern ones are a little more variegated when it comes to mouthpieces than, say, Yamahas and Yanas.

But enough about that! I second the reading of Paul Coats's soprano tuning article. Those principles should also be applied to the other saxophones, Paul just makes a point of emphasizing them when dealing with the soprano, which is entirely necessary.

[Bootman]

Good sop intonation has to do with air speed, not embouchure. This is an oft misunderstood area of sax playing. It is identical to playing 3rd register of the Flute intune, and the 3rd and 4th of the clarinet. If you bite up on the Sop then the upper register becomes shrill and you lose endurance due to a sore bottom lip.

As Paul states, angle of the mpc is critical and mpc choice factors are much more problematic on Sop than on other saxes. If you play with a lose embouchure and lots of air support, hear the note pitch in your head before you play the note (like singing), then your playing of the Sop will have the big strong sound, lots of presence and not cause the other band members anxiety everytime you pick it up.

[Stencilman]

Bootman, right on! Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that if you have intonation problems, start looking for a new mouthpiece. Its just that the area of mouthpiece/neck/horn mismatches has been a problem for me in the past.

[Dave Dolson]

I certainly don't see myself as "da man" when it comes to soprano. But thanks.

As to embouchure vs. air speed, I'm not so sure. When I relax my embouchure, I can go flat real quick up there. When I tighten it, meaning tongue and throat muscles, I come to pitch, and airspeed doesn't seem to be the issue, for me at least.

As to mouthpieces affecting pitch, maybe . . . but I assume that a player already has the set-up worked out, at least enough to play the horn.

True, some beginners (and our original question from fusionxxx alluded to being new to soprano) may not know to obtain a good-playing set-up, and the first thing I'd recommend would be to ensure that the mouthpiece is the best that can be obtained before even attempting to play the soprano.

And for new vs. vintage requiring certain mouthpieces, I'm still not convinced. Like I've said many times, I use one soprano and one alto mouthpiece set-up for all of my horns, soprano and alto, new and vintage (and I have new and vintage sops and altos). Plus, I have other mouthpieces that will play on either new or vintage. If the piece will play for me, it will play on anything I put it on. DAVE

[Bootman]

I have found that using air speed and support for the top end of Soprano gives you a big solid sound, embouchure remains settled from low to altissimo. The higher I play the harder I push with the diaphragm, it is the same on flute and clarinet. Throat position andhearing the note before you play it allow youto get the most out of your Soprano.

I also have no problem swapping flute, Sop, Clarinet, Bari or tenor throughout the night. I don't bite on any of these horns (including flute :wink: ). Once I have found the one mpc that gives me the sound and playability for a given horn, then I stick with it on that horn. One horn/ one mpc. I only use 2 1/2 reeds on Sop too with around 7* tip and have no problems playing the vintage or modern sops in tune. I must add that my vintage Sops are in perfect adjustment and have been fully overhauled, new pads, swedged keywork etc... They play as well as any new horn but have a bigger, sweeter sound to my ear.

I would recommend a lot of clarinet practise, get the air and throat thing sorted out before going to Soprano. Flute really helps too for air control.

[Dave Dolson]

Bootman: Makes sense to me . . . just to clarify, I have one-mouthpiece/one-horn set-ups, but they are all the same. For instance, I have three Super Sessions Js for sop and keep one with each horn I use regulalry. Same with the alto Soloists.

For my alto Super Session (and a new-to-me older Morgan/Bilger I recently picked up . . . talk about focused!!), I need to switch those from horn to horn 'cause I do not have double or triple sets). DAVE