How do you know when you are ready to sit in on a jam session???

[BusterBluee]

Hi All,
I am a beginning sax player and a late bloomer. One of my goals is become experienced enough to participate in jazz jam sessions around the New York City area.

How experienced should one be before they think about sitting-in???

Does it take years and years of practice before one can think of
sitting in on a jam session???

Does anyone living in or around NYC know where they are???

Or are there clubs/studios where musicians get together to jam, practice and
share ideas in NYC???

I am just trying to find my way through the maze of Jazz
Improvisation.

Enjoy The Journey,
Buster

[jazzbluescat]

How do you know when you are ready to sit in on a jam session???

I'd say at the same time that you feel that you're ready to gig. :)

[kavala]

Playing music in any live situation is more about confidence than ability.
This is especially true for jam sessions where you may be judged by
your peers.

So basically to answer your question 'when you feel confident'.
And only you can answer that.

But one thing I do know. You will never gain that experience or confidence
until you just jump right in there.

Be prepared to fall flat on your face.

All of us, including the greats, were beginners once.

My experience is that good players are not too judgemental
regarding somebody who is genuinely trying.
What they don't like is somebody who thinks they are the next John
Coltrane, but in reality are not very good.

And when you have all that confidence - 'Don't hog the stage'

[Harri Rautiainen]

Buster,
there are no clear-cut rules. It depends on you and on the available locations.

Find a small place and get some of your friends in the audience (if you feel comfortable).

For the general Jam session advice:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Jazz/JamSession.html

[BlueNote]

It's all about confidence.

My first jam session was with professionals when I was just beginning jazz! I was nervous to some extent, but I learned so much out of that jam. Best part was -- no one was in the audience. :-D

And that is where I met my private teacher.. so you never know who you're going to meet at a jam.

[Dog Pants]

Hi All,
I am a beginning sax player and a late bloomer. One of my goals is become experienced enough to participate in jazz jam sessions around the New York City area.

How experienced should one be before they think about sitting-in???

Does it take years and years of practice before one can think of
sitting in on a jam session???

Buster

A worthy goal Buster! How experienced should you be? For NY City? Very bloody experienced indeed.

With all due respect to my fellow forum members, some of the answers you have been given above are a combination of bull**** mixed with wishfull thinking.
In the breif period I spent living in NY City, the jam sessions were in no way "not too judgemental."
They were fiercely competitive and the standard of those playing was incredible. They weren't "fun" jam sessions. They were as serious as "my living depends on this."
Now unless NY City has suddenly become the home of peace, love and mung beans, unless NY City no longer attracts the very best hopefuls and seasoned pros from everywhere else in the jazz world, all trying to scrabble for fewer and fewer gigs these days. Unless that has happened, you better really have your stuff together and know a truckload of tunes, before you're ready to jam with these guys.
Maybe your teacher can give you some idea when you are "ready," and yeah, you need to have confidence and a thick skin. But to live and play in NY City is the "Holy Grail" for many players and has been for a long time.
By all means, "Go For It!" and the best of luck to you brother. Just remember, there's a reason they call it "The Big Apple."

[kavala]

I take your point Dog Pants. Yeah NYC. But I wasn't expecting a learner
to jump up at the Village Vanguard. That's if they would let ya.
I don't have any experience with NYC, but I imagine out in the burbs there
somewhere must be places where the less experienced can have a bit
of fun.
Like here, we have Jazz Societies or Jazz Clubs in most of the cities.
Mostly these people are just amateur weekend players.
Even NYC must have something along these lines.

[Brendan Muse]

If you're ready to ask the question, you're ready to go out and jam. Just bring a stand and a fake book along with you.

[Dog Pants]

I take your point Dog Pants. Yeah NYC. But I wasn't expecting a learner
to jump up at the Village Vanguard. That's if they would let ya.
I don't have any experience with NYC, but I imagine out in the burbs there
somewhere must be places where the less experienced can have a bit
of fun.

Yeah, I didn't think you were. But strewth, throwing a beginner in at one those jams??? Are we still allowed to feed Christians to the lions??? lol. That could get nasty. Kind of like a "friendly" game against the All Blacks.

[retread]

If I remember right, early in his career Charlie Parker sat in on a Kansas City after hours jam session. The drummer gently urged him to leave by throwing a cymbal on the floor during a Parker solo. But I suppose there are kindler, gentler jam sessions.

[kavala]

Yeah, I didn't think you were. But strewth, throwing a beginner in at one those jams??? Are we still allowed to feed Christians to the lions??? lol. That could get nasty. Kind of like a "friendly" game against the All Blacks.
Dog Pants, you're not from Australia by any chance are you, mate ?
I heard a bit of a twang in your post !

[Dog Pants]

If you're ready to ask the question, you're ready to go out and jam. Just bring a stand and a fake book along with you.

In NY City???

[Dog Pants]

Dog Pants, you're not from Australia by any chance are you, mate ?
I heard a bit of a twang in your post !

Crikey! LOL!

Yeah I'm an Aussie.

That'd be the "West Island," to you blokes.

[hgiles]

Mark Levine says don't move to NYC until you've mastered and memorized Rhythm Changes in all keys, blues in all keys and about 300 tunes in their standard keys.

Realistically, though, confidence will tell you when you are ready. The sooner you jump in the sooner you will leran to swim and get comfortable with the water. You will learn super quick what it is you need to be practicing.

[JL]

I realize you want to play jazz, but maybe check out some blues jams to get your feet wet. Assuming you know your way around the blues, and you better if you ever expect to play jazz with any authority!

In any case, be as prepared as you can be and also don't be discouraged when/if you fall flat on your face. It's ok and it's happened to everybody at one time or another. I remember a jam I attended early on where I misheard the key that was called. I came roaring in on a solo in the wrong key and man, did it sound terrible. I somehow managed to find the right key and blew some good licks finally, but it was too late, really. A good learning experience, though.

One thing you might do is find out where some jams are going on, then attend them without your instrument and see what the playing level is before jumping in. Eventually you do have to get up there and play if you want to progress.

[Bill Mecca]

let's remember the OP said "New York city Area" not NYC proper, which casts a wide open net including CT, NJ, PA not to mention NY state and Long Island (but I guess I just did) JL's advice on going without horn and getting a feel for the level of players, atmosphere etc is right on.

[kavala]

Crikey! LOL!

Yeah I'm an Aussie.

That'd be the "West Island," to you blokes.
The 'strewth' gave it away.

[larry]

Just some additional thoughts to those excellent observations already supplied here.

There's jams and then there's jams. If you have the time, it'd probably be best to go one night and just hang out and check out the scene before you jump up on the stand. Here's some of the jam situations they have up here in Boston:

1) Blues jams - horn players are generally in short supply (so they already like you!), there are tons of guitarists, harp players, and singers. Know your blues in all 12 keys (but esp. E, A, and D concert) and don't expect to play anything you've ever heard before.

2) Neighborhood jams - sheet music is allowed - generally pretty easy going on the newbies, you may be able to call a couple of songs (that presumably you've practiced, maybe memorized) and if you're any good, you'll get invited back up later in the evening.

2.5) Old timer jams - I've been to a couple of these up here and they generally exist to showcase amateur singers belting out popular hits of the 40s and 50s. You won't find any of those songs in the Real Book and everyone fakes it. Sometimes very well. (Personally I'm not comfortable in these situations since I'm generally not familiar with that particular "body of literature")

3) Cutting sessions - ala DP's NYC stories. Yup - these are still around and yes, it's survival of the fittest. These seem to exist to establish local pecking hierarchy and to audition and network with possible collaborators. Being seen with a Real Book or any hint of fear, doubt, or uncertainty is kind of like slashing your skin and jumping in a shark pool.

I love jamming with like-minded players - I'm always scared and exhilarated and almost always meet cool people many of which turn into friends in the long run. Go for it!

[BusterBluee]

Hi All,
Thanks for the feedback and the sharing of your experiences. This is a wonderful forum and very supportive. I hope as time goes along I can have something of value to share with the beginner and pro alike,
I think I will search for jam sessions and get a feel for how things go. New York City can be a very cold and competitive place. Though I feel that there have to be some good supportive musicians as in this forum.
Thanks Again.
Enjoy The Journey,
Buster

[hgiles]

It's been said that if you know 12 bebop heads in 12 keys then you have enough vocabulary to get out there and wing it. I think David Baker or Jerry Coker said this in a seminar.

[Tonehole]

You better know the tune called ... forget the fake book.

I was 13 and at the Toronto Jazz fest, started talking to the clarinet player for the Climax Jazz Band during the break, asked him if he was going to play the soprano he was packing on stage. Long and short he asked if I wanted to gig on the saturday matinee show with them. I said yes! Practiced for 3 days, selected my tunes from the fake book and showed up early. Well apparently "they knew none of the tunes in the fake book" I had studied. Never heard o Hawkins! Put me on stage and amused the audience at my expense but we jammed, they threw me tunes like they were hot potatoes. Survived and thrived. It was Dixieland.. how tough could it be!

If you hit the stage keep it short until you are comfortable with the venue and the players are comfortable with your level of game.

[njmyers]

Maybe you should go watch a jam session at Cleopatra's Needle or Smoke on Broadway and 94th I think. Cleo's runs one every night usually after midnight. Smoke has one once a week I think tuesdays. Also Smalls in West Village has sessions. Go watch the jam and see how they work and how good the players are and then you will know if you are ready for the NYC Jam Session.

Whatever you do . . . Don't bring the book.

[BlueTone]

When I was a young "starting out player", I would bring a small Sony Walkman (recorder version) to a Jam session held by the same Band.
I'd record about 3 sets of their tunes and then go home and practice them until I was fairly Familiar with what was going on.
That way, when I sat in, I didn't make a complete fool of myself! :)

PS: Actually..a few times I'd get some cool feedback:
"Damn..You sound like you've played with us before.."

[Tonehole]

Bluenote, maybe njmyers can confirm but I have a feeling the NY City Jams are likely free for all's like we have up here. The host band plays up until the Jam starts and then controls who plays piano, drums and bass. If there is no one for the rhythm section a member of the host band sits in. The brass and winds have to sort out who is playing amongst themselves. Somebody calls a tune picks a tempo and away you go.

You may get players being supportive and playing off each other and trying to showcase each others strengths.

Not likely!

More likely you have players throwing down their best chops and taking on all comers, trying to bitch another player.
Players can gang up and play people off the stage if they take a dislike to them by playing crazy tempo and esoteric or challenging and contorted tunes.
Some players don't like this approach but the crowd usually enjoys it. Forces you as a player to hone your improv skills and raise your level of play.

I was at a Jam that Roy Hargrove and the Factor showed up for, they were pent up from a concert show and unloaded at the jam. They tore the place up, a buddy (awesome player but only 19) went up and threw down his best and Roy responded, it did not take long before my friend left the stage. Me I was content to watch, enjoy and learn.

Got a feeling it is cut throat in the Big Apple, and if you are not ready you will end up as bruised fruit if lucky, more likely apple sauce!

[njmyers]

Sounds right to me

[BusterBluee]

Hi All,
Thanks for the excellent feedback and suggestions - I was thinking about
sitting in around the NYC proper... 5 Boroughs. I wish there was a pill to take for confidence which I think is part of the equation.
Enjoy The Journey,
Buster

[Markus-wt]

There is, but you want to keep away from these. :)

[rob]

Hi All,
I am a beginning sax player and a late bloomer. One of my goals is become experienced enough to participate in jazz jam sessions around the New York City area.

How experienced should one be before they think about sitting-in???

Does it take years and years of practice before one can think of
sitting in on a jam session???
Buster

From my hilarious, chaotic and BRIEF experience, I'd say it's as much about where as when.

You choose the territory. Buy the bass player a drink the week before..

[njmyers]

Yeah just go whenever you want and be prepared to have your rear end kicked and you'll be fine. I'd been playing for eight years and then I moved to New York and went to a jam session. My rear got burned up pretty bad but it sure turned up the fire on my practice habits.

[bagpiperjohn]

Greetings Friends,
After reading all of the above great advice and observations I was reminded of an interview my sax instructor had seen on the BBC of Duke Ellington who apparently answered a question about what makes greatness by replying, "you just have to make ten thousand mistakes, half of them in front of people."

Regards,
John

[pepper]

i cant remember who it was but a NYC jazz player was talking about Soweto Kinch (english alto player), who recently moved to NYC. he was saying he got cut night after night at first, but kept at it and is now really reaching a real level of maturity in his playing.

i'm guessing he was playing at the top jams in town (therefore the world i guess), but if he's getting cut then what chance does a relative beginer have at those places. enough to send you to your 19th nervous breakdown i'd have thought.

i'd say be realistic and find the right level. one step at a time and all that.

[rleitch]

I'm with Dog Pants and the anti-Fake book lobby on this one.

Does it take years and years of practice before you're ready to jam with professional jazz musicians in their place of work? Absolutely, (unless you're a prodigy, which you've ruled out) and even that's not any guarantee. As nymyers said: if you lurk a bit and listen to the jam you'll know whether you're ready to play or not. This hasn't really come up so far, but it seems to me that this question is as much or more about respecting those pros as it is about what you can do/get away with.

These stories about guys getting their asses kicked and surviving are about guys who are already accomplished jazz musicians, not beginners.

The suggestion to start with a blues jam is very good advice: blues is folk music, Jazz is high modernist art:)

Anyway here's my favorite warm and fuzzy fake book story: I was watching Archie Shepp (who by the way seems like New York personified to me) playing at the Rising Sun in Montreal (circa 1984-5) with what looked like his own rhythm section plus a couple of local guys on piano and guitar. At one point, the guitarist was soloing with his book on a stand in front of him and Shepp simply reached over and took the book away--right in the middle of the solo. I'm sure that guy learned from the experience of being cut like that (probably in front of his mom and girlfriend!) but that was a lesson from one pro to another. Now imagine him reaching over, tearing your head off, and shoving it up your #$%!:shock:

Man oh man: I would no more try to sit in with guys like that than I would try to suit up for the Yankees:!:

[cleger]

Could be worse, you could have tried to sit in with Rahsaan back in the day:

Cellist, composer and arranger Akua Dixon of Quartette Indigo (and wife of Steve Turre) recalled a humorous/pathetic scene that went down one night at the Vanguard; "This chick had begged him to let her sit in. Rahsaan had a siren and when somebody played too long, he'd go ahead and blow the whistle on them. She was up on the bandstand and he blew the whistle but she just kept honkin' and squeakin'. Now there's good 'outside' and there's 'honkin' and squeakin'. As far as Rahsaan was concerned she was 'honkin' and squeakin'. He blew the whistle on her again and she didn't get off the stage. She was really movin' all over the place. She came next to him and he reached over and grabbed the mouthpiece right off her sax! She started cryin' 'Oh Rahsaan! Please! Why'd you do that to me?

[hgiles]

As long as there is one guy in the bunch that plays worse than you then you are okay.

Honestly, I got a friend that has gonads of steel and he'll get his horn out and play with anyone. On the contrary, I tend to be a bit more selective on when I play. Either way, the combination of both of us works out most of the time and I have gotten less reserved in my playing as a result.

[rleitch]

cleger:
Exactly! And the idea is: don't be that chick!

Rory

ps why did John Lennon marry her, anyway?

[JL]

1) Blues jams - horn players are generally in short supply (so they already like you!), there are tons of guitarists, harp players, and singers. Know your blues in all 12 keys (but esp. E, A, and D concert) and don't expect to play anything you've ever heard before.

If you've never heard any of the tunes called at a blues jam, you're not really ready to play in one. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't play, just don't expect to win the house over. There are some blues heads and signature licks that you'll want to know. Caldonia and T-Bone Shuffle come to mind. You also need to know how to play riffs and backgrond lines that support the band without getting in the way. And be able to solo in a "blues style," not just running a bunch of notes.

There are also some "horn tunes" that the better blues musicians will call when they see a sax up on stage and if you don't know those tunes, you won't go over too well. If, OTOH, you do know them and can play them well, you'll be highly appreciated. Here's a partial list: Watermelon Man, Comin' Home Baby, Mr. Magic (not too commonly called, but...), Chameleon, Cleo's Mood (Jr Walker), Back at the Chicken Shack, Mercy Mercy Mercy, Cissy Strut (Meters tune), etc.

There are a lot of "standard" blues tunes, like Stormy Monday, Thrill is Gone, etc, that are played at most blues jams. It would be good to know them, and know some of the standard horns licks associated with them. Bottom line for any jam session: Know at least some of the repertoire!

[Media Lint]

Learn by trying. Never fails. Cheers.