Low A vs Low Bb

[FattBariSax]

Okay all of you pros. I need an explanation. I need you to tell me about this problem with Low A's cuz everywhere I go on this forum it says Low A is the wrong way to go but then I see great reviews for these low a horns. Ive never played a low A ive been playing a school bundy Low Bb and I dont find it that great. Im not defending either just looking to get a little debate going here which will help me. I will not be involved in the debate i will only ask further questions.

[MonchMan]

Check this thread

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=2240

May be its preferance, but I find better projection from a Bb than an A

[Big Nick]

There isn't a problem with low A baris.
A lot of people on this forum only like vintage saxes and since most low As are modern then they're not going to like them (along with top F# keys :wink: )
I'd go for low A and as modern (and expensive) as possible. But then I like to make life easy for myself and I'm just as prejudiced as the rest.

[Ritchie]

Low A is a bit heavier than low Bb. I think most of the projection thing is only a difference in the ear of the player, especially when comparing the sound of a low Bb played on a low A bari compared to played on a low Bb bari. At least I'm completely satisfied with the projection of my low A bari (Keilwerth SX90) in a bigband environment. If you play it in an amplified/electric band you'll have to be miked anyway. Low A is a great note to play :D (especially if you can do it without knee acrobatics)

[MusicMan]

Why not go for the best of both worlds...in other words have one of each :D

Seriously though. I had to make the investment in a low A horn because the music we were playing in our big band was calling for it and the old foot in the bell thing just wasn't cutting it...well maybe it was seriously cutting the sound.

Luckily, my wife relented and allowed me to keep my low Bb horn as well. 8)

[JPrince]

Well, I would have to say it is a matter of preference of the particular horn, as there are great Low A Horns, and Awsome Bb horns too. I am satisfied with my Martin Committee (though I have yet to try foot in the bell, I'll stick with my PVC pipe for a Low A), but I also liked my old Yamaha YBS-52 that I played in high school. I would agree with MusicMan and have the best of both worlds, butt if you are on a budget, or a "fresh out of high school college freshman" like me, a Bb Bari would do fine. I called the sax director at the university I'll be attending, who's name is Will Campbell (And he also toured with the Harry Conick, jr. Orchestra), and asked him the same basic question. He told me a Low A on a Bari is not as important as a whether or not it is great sounding horn. So if it has a Low A and sounds great, go with it. But IMO go with a Bb Martin. They are cheap, rugged, and sound awsome.

[Bootman]

In section playing having an A is very useful but you do lose a lot of projection, a low Bb horn can compete a lot better with other horns than the A can. I prefer the low Bb over the A but will use the low A horn when it is required.

[super20dan]

i also have both and use which ever horn is appropiate for what music i am playing .

[RS]

All of the baris I have owned and played through the years have been Selmers. And between the low A and low Bb horns I've played I'd say the low Bb horns have had a small advantage in response and projection. I used to own a couple of low A Selmers but now both of my baris are low Bb horns. Both good horns, though I wish I had kept one of the low As. They were good horns too.

[jjgold]

Well don't tell my Low A SX that it can't project very well and he may have to eightysix ya :evil: But, I do think that their is not a difference in projection more of a difference in the richness in the sound. Very Subtle though!

[saxmanic]

I have played several vintage and new Low Bb baris and have had a couple Low As for several years and agree with JJGold. My Low A VI can project on par with a Low Bb, but the Bb typically has a bigger, fuller sound.

[Bootman]

I have a Conn Bari here that will shock you, it eats all comers, brass players included. This Conn is loud, very, very loud.

[Ol Danl]

This may be obvious, but does the origin of the low A bari have anything to do with being able to play to the bottom of the cello range? I have been assuming this, but never asked anyone that would know.

[FattBariSax]

Im starting tolean towards the low A end, folks is the low A any bigger or just heavier?If its bigger which way?

[Boarass]

folks is the low A any bigger or just heavier?If its bigger which way?

Both. The bell is longer in order to accomodate the low A, and thus the sax as a whole is a good bit heavier. It's nothing horrible, though.

[Bootman]

It depends on the Low A horn, the usual Selmer style low A Bari has a smaller bell diameter but the bell is longer. The Keilwerth has a larger bell flare than the Selmer but the biggest bell flare of any low A Bari is the Martin Magna which is significantly larger than a Bb Baritone.

[RS]

I find the low A Selmers comfortable to play though the bit of extra weight can become noticeable after a couple of hours of playing.

[baribri]

Hi gents.
I kind of get bored hearing the same debates constantly. I have been playing bari for almost 40 years professionaly and after playing most every brand of horn I find the proof is in the player.
Most modern music today requires the low A. Most cats out there playing are used to having the extra note. As to projection , tone and sound quality it is more the player than the horn and the mouthpiece selection that does it. (I would just love to hear somebody on a gig try to "eat me up" I would be very hard pressed to go to a new show rehearsal or concert performance and not have the low A available to me, it would require some explanation to the conductor and that is something you do not want to be put into a position to have to ever do if you are an experienced player. Other than special order does anybody even make a low Bb bari anymore? Keilwerth I have heard special orders them.
Low Bb is fine for the budget minded and for Mulligan wanna be's but the low A is what is really needed for all around work these days and to feel otherwise is just going to limit your ability to get work. like it or not that's just the way it is and this is the same thing I would tell any of my students that wanted to play the bari, along with the caveat that they had better get together their bass clarinet, soprano clarinet, alto sax, flute and piccolo chops just to name most of the required doubles (that should be enough to keep you all busy).
Good luck all ...
Brian

[paulwl]

If you want baritone to be your primary horn - and make a living at it - then yes, you had best resign yourself to the life of the utility reedman. This personifies the ideal of service to music - you play what is needed, the way it's needed, and be thankful for a paycheck and the respect of your peers.

BUT...If you have earned your stripes as a servant of music and are looking to move on to something more personal and expressive - or if baritone itself is just a double for you, as I suspect it is for the majority of posters here (myself included) - then there's more room for choice in your equipment and your sound.

This is where the boring debates come in. I suspect they might be a little more interesting if we all could hear each other play.

[Jazzophone]

to add to the weight debate ... if one of our very small female eighth graders can play (and carry around) a Low A bari -- and so can I! -- that should give you an idea of it. It's really not that bad. IMHO I love the A anyway: round, fat, and can blow just about anyone out of the water. Good stuff.

[MusicMedic]

I have not played a Low A baritone with as big, rich and full a sound as a low Bb. -My Conn to be more specific.

My vote is for the low Bb. It is only one more note BTW...

[FattBariSax]

Ok this leads me to another question.

Im very small, Im 4'9. Already with the schoo low Bb bari, I can only keep it one inch off the ground when im sitting. Thats cutting it close because its so tall. Is the low A going to be a problem here? 40 year guy, I agree, my music callsfor low A but my director said that the school just cantafford a low A. Im debating whether or not I can fit the damn thing.

[RS]

The bottom of the bow joint of the low A should be at the same level as on the low Bb. The extra length of tubing is in the bell. So if you have an inch of clearance with the low Bb you should have an inch of clearance with the low A.

[Jazzophone]

If it's any consolation, I started playing tenor just before I entered seventh grade and I couldn't hold it up for the life of me, so when I played it I actually had to rest the end of the bell on my case so my hands didn't fall off. You're doing fine with that bari ;)

For the record, I play bari now too (without the case ;)).

[electricninja]

Before getting a bari, I thought a low A was superfluous and stupid. But after improvising a bit, it totally comes in handy. Heck, I wouldn't mind a low G# either. :wink:

[FattBariSax]

I just tested a J&S bari at bronstein. It had low A. I loved it. Tahts the horn im gonna get.

[UOPJohnny]

This may be obvious, but does the origin of the low A bari have anything to do with being able to play to the bottom of the cello range? I have been assuming this, but never asked anyone that would know.

In my jazz theory classes, I was taught that the bari was extended to the low A because it's the concert C. Concert C is a "good" key for composers to write in (composers have been getting linearly lazier since the 1700's [that was a joke, no offense to any who compose]), and a "good" key to play in for the band.

[Ol Danl]

UOP Johnny:
My assumption that the low A comes from the bottom end of cello range is based on a few observations:

1. That low C is the bottom open string on cello (somebody correct me if I am wrong)

2. The only other saxes I have seen with a low A were a few altos, and that would correspond to the bottom string on the viola. ( Hey, a low A on a soprano would give the bottom G note on the violin. Okay, maybe I am just wrong ....)

3. There appears to be a strong connection between strings and saxophones -- I think I remember reading that one of the original goals Mr. Sax had in inventing the instrument was to have a band instrument that could perform the function of strings in a band. The sax quartet sort of resembles a string quartet, in ways, too.

I mean, I can understand composers being lazy and all ( being extremely lazy myself) but I guess the eventual question I come up with, and this would seem to be appropriate for any new instrument or improvement to an existing instrument is, "Why write music for an instrument if no example of it exists,yet?" And the opposite view, " Why build an instrument if no music is written for it yet?" Could also be taken. It just seems that the transcribing of existing music from another instrument might be a reason to extend the range of an existing instrument.

How about some more of you music history folks -- have there been low A's on any sops or tenors?

[UOPJohnny]

Ol Danl,

In the same school I learned the previous information, I also learned that it's rumored that Mr. Adolphe Sax built the saxophone to create a woodwind, reed powered, that could create the rich, lush sounds of the string instrument. Even though this is only rumor, he built the bass saxophone first, which was rumored to correspond to the cello (not in range, but in tambre).

Yes, the baritone sax's low A corresponds to the lowest C of the cello (you're correct). However, the low A wasn't really common on the baritone til about the 50's or 60's (correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't exactly around back then). At this point, Adolphe Sax was deceased (1814-1894), and big band swing music was much more popular than quartet/chamber music.

I've played a couple of transcribed string quartets for saxophone quartet at school. Our bari player played a low Bb bari, and it was never a problem.

[Ol Danl]

UOP Johnny -- You know you've got to be right. The use of the instrument as a concert or marching band instrument would never carry the influence to bring about an increase in its range, and its use in a small saxophone ensemble would have even less weight. The use in jazz would have to be the motivation behind the low A. I guess the concert C being the low cello string must just be a coincidence.

[baribri]

This is where the boring debates come in. I suspect they might be a little more interesting if we all could hear each other play.
Well, not alluding to the low A or Bb question I kind of may have, hopefully , misunderstood Paul's reply but if not I really have to say I resent it.
After having spent a number of years working at USA HORN when I was not out playing or doing road gigs I have to say that I have heard many of the SOTW posters play and know quite a few of those with decent ability and many more with great shortcomings but I would NEVER say a word to deflate any ego's of any player. Those that know who we are and our backgrounds, if they are wise, will use our exeriences to help make more learned decisions, fortunately some of us will not come out and say who can and who cannot play well. I learned a hard lesson one time when some "tirekicker" came to USA to ostensibly test horns and if there is anything a player knows it's how to make sure a horn is in tune with itself. Upon telling this person the correct way to test a horn rather than just trying to play every lick he ever practiced from an omnibook in an effort to impress the storefolks he got bent out of shape and had the nerve to write about it in a derogatory way in the forum talking about the nerve of the store personell. Hey what do I know, only studied with Allard, J. Napolean. Scheiner and toured with a number of known bands plus more but again, what can I contribute to an internet virtuoso's ability to test horns and then take a bit of instruction as blasphemy against his very slight ability.

[hannibal]

Hey baribri

Your comments about the 'old tirekicker' at USA Horn left me asking how do you know if a horn is in tune with itself? What's the best way to play test a horn?

I'm not being intentionally cheeky as I'm not sure I actually know. And I know of other players who don't actually know either. I thought it might be an intersting discussion so I started a new thread under 'Misc. Sax Discussion' to unravel this. Perhaps you could join in there your with opinion?

Cheers
Jeff

[Bootman]

Your ear and lots of practise will give you a pretty good indication of wether a horn is in tune with itself or not. Basically you have to know how to centre and focus the tone on each note. No saxophone plays perfectly in tune, it is up to the player to play the horn in tune.

[baribri]

According to the following players, who by the way, were marvelous players and teachers both when alive and the one still with us who I would rather not name because I don't think he wants publicity at this late time in life but believe me it is a great way of testing a horn and lastly yes to Richard "Bootman"'s words but to add that of course no sax in absolutely in tune and to think so is very naive. That having been said and armed with the knowledge that as a player you must constantly adjust intonation to those around you both in a section and on all other instruments to achieve tonal harmony. The best way of testing a sax to be sure that it is in tune with itself is to start on your low Bb and without changing fingering to jump up one octave then on to the next and lastly to the 5th all without changing fingerings sort of like the basic octave jumping exercise you should have been doing when you first started playing. Do the same chromatically to at least the low D and the harmonics on top of this fingering. All the harmonics you get are crucial that they are in tune with the bottom fingering otherwise the horn has inert troubles and you should move on to another horn.
Joe Allard
Joe Napoleon
Prof. Emeritus Allan XXXXX
PS: when I referred to the "tire kicker" please don't misunderstand, most of the players and students that used to come by were wonderful but as always in life there are going to be times when no matter what you do you cannot deal with less than perfect minds and you have to just do what you have to do. This was the case and in no uncertain terms the person in question was only out to kill time with no regard for the value of the time or others and add to this that they were not smart enough to acknowledge the opportunity to learn from those with vastly more experience than themselves.
Thanks for the ears guys....

[paulwl]

Well, not alluding to the low A or Bb question I kind of may have, hopefully , misunderstood Paul's reply but if not I really have to say I resent it.
Brian, I honestly don't know what I say to offend. We've crossed wires like this a few times before, and I still don't know.

Am I stepping all over some sacred subculture? Trashing a valued tradition? Saying anything at all about you or your colleagues (most of whom I've never met)? I don't mean to do any of those things.

Where did I go wrong?

[baribri]

This is where the boring debates come in. I suspect they might be a little more interesting if we all could hear each other play.

This is the statement I refer to.
If I misunderstood, all good and well, if not my resentment is about the inference, at least that I read into the words, that some people would have more valid opinions if we could hear them play, by comparison to others.
I don't really recall any serious wire crossings Paul other than perhaps a small misunderstanding years ago sprouting from when I met you while you were trying horns or mouthpieces over in Oradell NJ and that was really nothing at all.
I am of the opinion that many of us that contribute, know a great deal about the others and the abilities. I have posters, over the years say hello on various gigs I have been on and I have played side by side next to a number of members and lastly as a musician and music educator I feel very good when a piece of information can freely be imparted to others wanting to learn. I don't feel very good when anybody questions abilities or credentials.
Peace.
Brian

[paulwl]

Quote: This is where the boring debates come in. I suspect they might be a little more interesting if we all could hear each other play.

This is the statement I refer to.
OK then...All I said was, this abstract, words-on-a-screen stuff we do online might be more meaningful if we were doing a clinic or a workshop and playing AND discussing all at once. In an accepting, open atmosphere, not ranking anybody out.

[Biff]

I myself am very attatched to the low Bb Bari at my school it's a Bundy, and the thing can get so loud it's incomprehensible because the the bell gets absolutely huge! I can fit my shoulder into the thing (long story, involving a loose mouthpiece in the case), plus another hand or two. It's Nuts!! :shock: otherwise, the old Low A conn we have at the school seems to do pretty well, but it just can't compare to the power I get out of that Bundy.

[Spencer]

I used to love the A until I started playing a Bflat Couf S1. I'd love to try a couf with an A but until then I can say this horn blows the Yamaha52 with an A away.
I guess what I am saying is the hand made KW beats the factory reproduced sound. I'm sure any VI would do the same.

[OnyxSax]

I've taken my Low Bb Conn Chu Baritone and gone head to head with a number of Low A baris (Selmer, Yamaha) and the Conn always comes away the winner. At each one of our Maryland Get Togethers, everyone in attendance was pretty much in agreement on this. The only horn that could run with the Conn that I came across was a 5-digit Mark VI bari...with a low Bb.

I prefer the low Bb horns because they seem to be a lot less unwieldy than the Low A horns. For a small guy like myself (5'6", 140 lbs), who suffered a serious back injury last year, the weight difference between the Low Bb and Low A is critical.

[navyvet]

Since my first Bari, I've always played low A horns, and I just love popping out that A! I'm in 2 bands, (one concert, one swing) and it's written in quite a few of the charts, so I know I would really miss it if I didn't have it. I also enjoy transcribing and playing cello suites, bassoon concertos, etc on the bari.
Nothing scientific here, just my personal preference. :)

[tapdancesavy]

I just picked up bari and for a while had to use a crappy school horn (I'm in hs). The student Yamaha's don't have low A's, so I had to use my foot. Just stick your foot in the bell. It works like a charm.

-Amy Beth

[michaelbaird]

I played a Buffet Low A Bari in high school and can remember how wonderful it was to this day. I'm old and used and a 1962 vintage. I play a Buescher 400 of very close to that vintage. I unfortunately can't justify the money for one right now. Now that I've learned how to make a low A extension that plays them in tune, there is no need.

[tubbycub]

Most modern symphonic and big band music these days have low As written for the bari. Although, the foot and PVC technique had help to produce such a note but don't you all find it a big hassle to do that. Most professional baris these days have the low A extension and they did it with a reason. This extension is invaluable to me. I had posted this in another section, try playing the soli section for bari on "Cruisin' for a Bluesin" by the Maynard Ferguson band and you will be grateful that you have the low A extension key. There are so low As written for this part and some parts even require you to play around low Bb and A.

The Bb baris may probably produce a bigger sound but with the proper setup and playing technique on the A bari, you can still get such a sound. I am using the Dukoff D7 with Vandoren 2.5 and the sound is huge!

[michaelbaird]

I'm using a dukoff D8 with a #2 Rico and it barks like a dog.

[captorquewrench]

I've always played a bari with a low A. I'm not picky, I'm poor, so I play what's been provided for me and just have fun doing it.

I'm fortunate enough to have been loaned (long-term) a 63 mark VI low A. look bads, plays good.

So, I can't give an opinion about the Bflat. I think it boils down to what you like and what suits your/your ensemble's needs best.

I will add that I would think it would be better to have a sax that the action feels right all-around for you, regardless of it has the low A or not, than to play a sax where you fighting pitch or finger placement in the range you'll usually be in. i don't think that compromise would be worth it, when I think about the whole sax experience.

[michaelbaird]

I wish someone would loan me VI Bari with a low A!

[captorquewrench]

it's a lovely 1963 mark vi with low a

the director for the community band i'm in has taken a post at a local university with a SMALL music dept. some of us from the community band are filling chairs for him where the parts aren't covered. the university is about 10 min from my office; i had considered enrolling there to finish my music degree...it came together quite nicely to get a chance to sit in the band to make sure I was a fit with the dept before enrolling. Unlike my previous college expereince. LOL.

[Bassps70]

Tubbycub- gotta love that crusin' soli! That was the most fun I have ever had playing bari.

[Pinnman]

Generally speaking, low Bb baris weigh about 9 lbs. and low As about 11. That'a a 22% increase in weight and I for one feel it! Sitting is bad enough; standing for a couple of hours holding and playing one of these things is another. I'll stick with my 1935 12M!

A bad back (sports injury from my younger days) doesn't help, but I would be wary of playing a bari at too young an age. Playing stands ought to help, but I find it diffcult to get in position properly. Most of the time I use a sling (diagonal harness, but there is another thread on this).

I don't know about Adolphe Sax himself, but in the 1920s Buescher advertised the sax as being a suitable replacement for string instruments. Read their adverts and you would think that violins etc. were redundant!

Lastly, I find the biggest problem with not having the low A is in wind band music. This could be because the bari part has been transcribed from a cello part in some instances. I can lip down close (and probably close enough) to low A, but have never been brave enough to try it in front of an audience, just in case.

[Pinnman]

......... or possibly bassoon. Looking at a 1923 Buescher catalogue, I read, "An excellent substitute for Bassoon in either band or orchestra."

Even so, there are also numerous references to use of alto, tenor and baritone as substitutes for cello.

[michaelbaird]

Try that Low A extension. It really works. I had to make mine longer and checked it with a tuner.