Buescher Snap-In Pads

[Balladeer]

I'm thinking of buying a Buescher alto to have as a back-up for my Mark VI. After reading so many positive posts about Buescher, I may even like the Buescher better than my vintage VI.

One thing I don't understand is the snap-in pads. What is so special about these? Will the horn lack something in tone with after-market pads/resonators? Is the value just a collector thing?

[cmelodysax]

The main consideration with snap-in's is that to fit standard pads the snap-in hardware has to be physically removed from the cups. Brave man who does that, it's pretty much an irreversible step - I once punched a hole in a normal rivet-less pad to do an emergency replacement on a Buescher.

If you love Buescher, then I think you just accept snap-in, pads are still available. But then, I'm really a Martin man........ I must also say that the darker and wider Buescher sound may not quite be as focussed as you are probably used to with the Selmer. And the action will be a little different. Try out any Buescher well if/before you consider buying it.

I've mostly played Martins, Bueschers, and Keilwerths - and every time I've used a Selmer it was quite a different experience - good luck.

Alan.

[Dave dix]

I have a true tone bari with snap ins. Great idea and are so easy to replace a pad. i too did an emergency replacement at a gig by punching a hole thru a normal pad as a get me thru the gig job, that was three years ago and its still perfect. I also play martin and selmer and aristocrat, apart from the LH pinky cluster the sax,s are simular to play. Just gets a bit of getting used to. The sound from the bueschers are great ,but beware, the selmer might be left at home and the buescher may become your main instrument !!!!

[cmelodysax]

Dave - I'd completely forgotten the 'plus' about not needing shellac, it's so long since I did it - and my emergency repair hasn't ever needed redoing either, like yours........

I also agree totally with the comment about 'leaving the Selmer at home' - a good dark horn like a Buescher or Martin with an edgy mouthpiece is a fearsome beast, who needs a Selmer outside a studio?

Still, they are a good investment, best put it in the safe............ Use the Buescher instead. :D

[JL]

It's strange how I keep hearing how dark the Bueschers are. My big bell Aristocrat tenor is noticably brighter than my MK VI. Could it be due to the fact that the Buescher is silver plated? Or perhaps I just have a relatively dark VI.

[cmelodysax]

Just a quickie reply, in my mind the term 'dark' only hints at the depth/width of sound the horn has naturally (it's all very subjective anyway).
Both my main Martin horns can be dark as h*!!, but e.g. the alto (a Magna) has a reserve of edge and cut that will slide me past most loud guitar or keyboard players with ease - so it can also be bright with the best.
So I guess for me the 'darkness' is the native, relaxed, easy sound, without pushing the mouthpiece/reed to brighten things up. Confused ? ....I am....

[MusicMedic]

Just to be clear as I don't think anyone actually said it:
The Metal Snap in pads do add a great feel to the pads. The Resonators that snap on the pads are very heavy and add weight to the keys. Don't consider taking the spuds out of the pad cups. It's not a good idea from any standpoint; player, collector, resale, etc...

Do consider getting a Buescher!

[danodownunder]

The buescher snaps that i was supplied last time have some waterproofing on them that has to be treated carefully or it becomes hell sticky. My selmer tenor has much more power than my buescher BB but i am using a dark as hell mthpce on it and have thought for some time that it [thebb] needs a brighter pce, If you keep the metal backs from the snaps you can drill out the centre of a THIN pad put the metal in the key cup and apply the snap and its better than new. Howdy tinminer its Dan from NZ [mthpce not here yet]. And i agree with you Martins sound better, louder and more grit when pushed,

[cmelodysax]

Hello Dan - mpce definately 'in the air' - give it a chance..... 8)

On the subject of 'brightening up dark horns', I just got an alto Berg for US$55 on UK ebay - advertised as 'bit corroded' but turned out to be a nice gold/bronze 85/0 sms Berg. Whoopee, always wanted one !!
Brings out even more brightness and edge (whilst still sounding 'full') that I couldn't find with steel Berg or Dukoff - so I'll try it on an old Buescher that I have stashed away somewhere, could be very interesting.
From my memories of Selmers, those that I've tried in the past have had a lot of their 'own' (very nice) sound, but not so easily influenced by the different mouthpieces like the Martins or Bueschers. Maybe I'm just biased..... :lol:

[paulwl]

It's strange how I keep hearing how dark the Bueschers are [...]
It's a positive stereotype, is what it is. They can be played darkly - perhaps more so than any other saxophone. But they're just as capable of a bright (but centered) sound.

Don't consider taking the spuds out of the pad cups. It's not a good idea from any standpoint; player, collector, resale, etc...
How about just common-sense convenience? Techs who spend an hour or 2 grinding out the snaps either a. haven't stopped to think that they could just punch holes in the pads with the adjustable size punch they use to make felt cushions, or b. are afraid the Snap-Ins are some wierd outmoded gimmick that must be a Bad Thing, or else you'd see it on every horn made today.

A lot of the time you don't need to be a specialist, you just need your head screwed on.

[MusicMedic]

How about just common-sense convenience? Techs who spend an hour or 2 grinding out the snaps either a. haven't stopped to think that they could just punch holes in the pads with the adjustable size punch they use to make felt cushions, or b. are afraid the Snap-Ins are some weird outmoded gimmick that must be a Bad Thing, or else you'd see it on every horn made today.

you might be right Paul. Also, a lot of Techs purchase pads with the resos installed. They might just not want to remove the Resos from the pad.

[Dave Dolson]

In my older age, I appreciate the extra effort put into rebuilding an old Buescher correctly (keeping the snaps, etc.). But of the four Bueschers I now own (and others I've owned over the years), the best playing soprano and alto I've ever had are the ones I have now . . . a silver straight TT and a silver alto, both without snap-in pads. The studs were removed years before I knew to ask the tech NOT to remove them.

Of my other Bueschers, I'm not sure if they have snap-ins or not. Oh, I've been counseled on what snap-ins look like, but I still can't tell for sure. All of the pads seem to be tight in their cups without any movement (or "float").

Others here have claimed that Bueschers with snap-in pads play the best, but like I've written before, I'd be hard-pressed to find better playing sopranos and altos than the TTs I now use as my main horns. They do NOT have snap-in pads. DAVE

[mark_m]

Does one ever find snap-ins used with glue as well? I'd presumed I don't have the snap-ins on my new TT tenor because I can see bits of what I believe is hot glue around the edges of a couple of the pads.

How do the pads look different than, say, a Dejur pad with a typical flat resonator?

[MusicMedic]

Dave, I too have played some great Bueschers without the Snap in pads in them. I have a Gold Plated Bari here that I just finished. Someone took the Snaps out so, I put Metal Backed Pads in with Buescher Shaped Domes and it sounds great! I think it's better not to risk taking them out. I also see where you're coming from.
-PS I put the new JS Metalized pads in the Palm Keys and on the G# as well as a little modifying.....

Mark, some people don't like to use the Buescher Metal backed pads and choose to glue in regular pads. So, you might have Buescher Snaps and regular (yet modified) cardboard backed pads. The Buescher Snaps are domes and show no signs of a rivet in the center. They are also likely to be a little corroded if the pad is old.
Also, since the Buescher Snaps were spun, you can see the machining lines on the Reso itself. The only other resonator that looks anything like a Buescher Snap is a Pisoni Seamless Domed Reso. Those are very smooth and shiny.

I can take a pic for you if you like.

[max]

Okay - I've always been curious, but afraid to try it: how do these things snap out? Do you just pry the dome off?

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

I've had quite a few people ask recently about the special Buescher snap in resonators. I'll try to explain it below and see if I can't figure out how to include some photos here as well.

Many Bueschers came with the male part of the snap soldered to the inside of the key cup. The resonator has the receptor or female part of the snap attached to it. The original Buescher factory pads had a metal backing with a larger than usual hole so the resonator will fit through it. The resonator sandwiches the pad into the pad cup.

http://members.aol.com/vintagesax/res.jpg
http://members.aol.com/vintagesax/res1.jpg

A lot of repair people unsolder the male part of the snap from the key cup. They then use a resonator that attaches to the pad like any other saxophone and glue the pad in place.

I prefer to reuse the original resonator and float the pad in place with shellac. Floating a pad on a bed of shellac helps me seat the pads perfectly without bending any keys. I also do this because sometimes the resonators can be loose enough to rattle or vibrate when the horn vibrates. I make sure that I have some shellac under the resonator so its not going to vibrate. I've even seen pads shrink with age and rotate under the resonator when they are not glued in place. When this happens the seat in the pad changes and hairline leaks will result.

The job of a resonator in a pad is to reflect sound. Leather pads absorbs sound. Large resonators will make a horn louder with more projection and a little brighter. If pads have a small resonator and a lot of leather is exposed than the horn will produce a darker sound. Whether the resonator is attached to the pad cup or not doesn't affect how a resonator does its job. Buescher's snap in resonators reflect the sound just as an aftermarket resonator does. I believe the size of the resonator matters much more to the sound than whether it is a snap in style resonator or a regular after market resonator.

[Bootman]

I prefer the snap in pads in my Bueschers, it changes the feel of how the horn plays when you remove them.

If you can, never remove the snap ins, it really does upset how the Buescher plays. The best way to tell is to play several Bueschers and youwill hear the difference. The early aristocrats are particularly succeptible to the loss of the snaps.

[mark_m]

Thanks for all the info. I definitely don't have the snap-in pads, then. They're flat resonators with a rivet in the middle. I suppose there's pretty much no chance the snaps are still back there.

The painful part is this happened shortly before I bought the horn. An old family friend bought the horn new in 1935, I'm sure never had it repadded (it was hardly played), and his wife recently took it to a shop to spiff it up for him as a surprise for Christmas 2001. Best of intentions....bad luck for me but still a fine horn...

Maybe someday I'll fab new snaps and solder them in (some day in my dreams at least)
:)

[mark_m]

p.s. Gayle thanks for the pics. Still enjoying the alto I bought from you awhile back - cheers...

[stitch]

Okay - I've always been curious, but afraid to try it: how do these things snap out? Do you just pry the dome off?

I'm curious too.....

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

Mark, Thanks for letting me know. Its important to me that my horns have good homes and are appreciated! :D

Stitch-- Yes, the snap on resonators are easily pried off; just put a blade screw driver under the outside lip and lift. If the resonator has been shellaced in place, a little heat to the pad cup may be necessary as well.

[Dave Dolson]

Gayle: Thanks for the photos and description. I took a look at a second Buescher TT soprano I own and low-'n'-behold, it has snap-ins. I even popped off the resonator on the low B pad!! The rest of the pads look similar.

Still, it doesn't play as good as my other TT soprano without snap-ins, but that's only one example. Thanks again. DAVE

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

Dave, I have played many Bueschers with after-market resonators that played very well so I'm not surprised that you've found one too. I love to work with the original snap ins and believe they are wonderful. I encourage every repair tech to learn to work with them. I don't think a horn is ruined if the original resonators have been stripped though. I can set up a horn to play well with or without the original resonators.

Bueschers have been my horn of choice for 18 years now and I've played quite a few different horns. It comes down to one simple thought- Bueschers make it easy for me to produce the sound I want. The snap in resonator is not responsible for that dark rich tone that made me fall for a Buescher, its more about their bore, taper, brass, tone hole placement and workmanship.

[max]

Just thought I'd chime in here too - Gayle also set me up with an absolutely killer TT soprano. (I've already sent her waay too much e-mail gushing over it, so I thought she might be sick of it... :wink: )

...and to be on topic, It's got snap-ins, but I'm going to leave them alone - I'll pry some off of my Big B bari...

[saxtek]

All my collectable Bueschers have snap-on pads installed without glue just for the sake of authenticity. However, if I were using a Buescher with snap-ins as my main horn, I'd keep the snaps and snap-in pads, and use glue also. It makes it easier for the repair tech to get the pads perfect and it makes sure the pads stay exactly where they belong.

It was Buescher snaps that started the resonator revolution. They were the first resonators, probably unintentionally. When Conn followed a little later with their reso-pads, the resonators were the same diameter as Buescher snaps.

Gayle's photos are great.

[soreliprick]

Could Selmer Metal Resonators be used with Buescher metal backed pads to simulate the Snapin system on a nubless True Tone?

[MusicMedic]

Better to use Pisoni's Seamless domed Resos.
If you really want to get crazy, you can spin them on a bench motor and add the tooling lines with a needle spring or some Steels wool.

Weight can be added to them in various ways also to simulate the weight and look of a Snap-in..
:P

[GT]

I was just checking out my 171,xxx TT alto. I thought that the 171,xxx was a little too early for snap ins. But they have no rivet in the center and are as described above. The only difference is that the leather is rather white looking as opposed to the brown in Gayle's pictures. Does anyone know about when the snap ins appeared?

[saxtek]

Some of the earliest Buescher snaps are stamped "Pat. 12-27-21," so figure they were introduced around 1921. The first snap-on pads were made from white leather and were stitched onto the metal back instead of glued like the new ones.

[Saxdaddy]

I just removed some old stiched snap ins, with the same pat. date as the snaps, nice old true tone. Tan kid skin, not white though. Maybe these were not the first, but they are original. And the old silver handcraft looks to be a late 20's to mid 30's vinatage, not sure though. Maybe I should look up the Ser#. Anyway, I have no idea why I posted this, guess its time to go to bed. :shock:

[Pinnman]

My 1923 Buescher catalogue states that the TT is the only sax with snap-in pads. 1921 could be correct although I have a gut instinct (no more and open to correction) that they came in earlier. Without anything further, though, saxtek's date must be taken as correct.

However, my gold plated alto from 1924 (168K) does not have the snaps. Ebay trader Annsporpoise tells me that the GP saxes did not have snaps until mush later. Any ideas on this, please?

Incidentally, the sound on this sax is great. Very full, warm, rich Buescher sound. Excellent intonation and it can wail when required. Before repadding, it had almost as many different pads as keys, some quite possibly originals.

The current pads are slightly convex and from E upwards have a rivet protruding; the keys from D down do not have this rivet showing. Beats me, but I have implicit faith in my repairer and have no complaints.
Great sax. As a friend says, this one will be buried with me!

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

Buescher applied for a patent for snap-in pads in Feb 1921. It was granted in Dec 1921. SaxTek's date seems to be correct as I have never seen snap in resonators in horns before 1921 either. As for gold plated altos not having snap in resonators till later, that info doesn't suit my experience. The resonators are gold plated in gold plated horns and Buescher didn't delay them in any way. A gold plated True Tone in the 168k range would have come from the factory with gold plated resonators just as a silver plated horn came with silver plated resonators.

[Pinnman]

The puritan in me would like to have seen the snaps retained. It seems even more sacriligious to take gold plated ones out of a GP sax.

On the other hand, there are many who are arguing here that TTs play better without the snaps left in; I will console myself with the thought. Besides, it sounds so wonderful (looks good, too) that I really am happy with this sax.

Glad to have confirmation of saxtek's date. Thanks again, Gayle; you have been working overtime for me this week.

[dingfelder]

I repadded a Beuscher Stensil (Wurlitzer) C-Melody for my own use, that had screw-ins instead of snap-ins...

What I mean by screw-ins is that the female part was the bottom piece (soldered to the key cup), and there was a screw that went through the reso to hold the pad in place.

Several screws were missing, some of the threads were stripped, and the resos were pretty corroded.

As I removed the pads, I discovered that the pads were also glued in as well.

Because of those issues, I unsoldered all the screw-in bottoms and put in traditional pads with resos.

I am happy with the result but I guess it is no longer pure vintage.

One thing I am confused about is that I have not heard about any discussions about screw-ins instead of snap-ins.

Thoughts ?

[Chu-Jerry]

I'm currently doing a restoration of a '32 Buescher New Aristocrat tenor and just pulled all the pads. I believe they are the originals as they have the pat stamped metal backing discs and sewn leather. They are in remarkably good condition with no tears or abrasions and I entertained the thought of reusing them. But the leather is just too fragile (and smelly) to really consider it. I noticed when removing them that about half of them had been installed with a couple drops of shelac. It was not enough to be a factor in 'floating' them in so I suspect that the factory simply used just enough to keep some of the possibly looser pads from rotating.

One thing that bothers me is that all the new pads available are in mm sizes rather than the original inch dimensions. And there are some gaps in the available sizes where there is not a good match for some of the pads. For example I need a 49mm but it does not seem to be available. 50 is too big, and 48 seems likely to leave a noticable gap. I may end up having to custom make a couple with re-use of the old backing disks. Also, the original octave key pads have the snap built-in to the pad itself. How do you replace these with modern replacements? Do the new ones have the integral snap?

[Bootman]

Get some new pads made up from your old disks. Dont devalue your New Aristocrat by adding later pads, it will not play or feel as good if you don't go the snap in route.

[ska_sax]

is there any way you can fabricate new male parts for the pads,i have two non snap in pads the rest are still there,its due for an overhaul so i might as well get it fixed if i can,cheers