Difference between Buescher models?

[Leotomcov]

What are considered to be the best Beuschers? The Aristocrat or the 400 (If I have the models wrong, forgive my ignorance...am relying on my memory)

[Gregg W. Jackson]

You will find fans of both models. Bootman raves about the Aristocrat. Steve Goodson loves the 400.

Here are some links that will give you more information about both models:

Steve Goodson's opinion of the 400:
http://www.saxgourmet.com/buescher.htm

Steve's value guide to vintage saxes, which discusses the Aristocrat and 400 models:
http://www.saxgourmet.com/VINTAGE_SAXOPHONE_VALUE_GUIDE.htm

The Vintage Sax Gallery's Buescher section: http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/index.htm

There's a brief discussion of the Buescher models in Jason Dumar's International Saxophone Home Page (ISHP) "Saxophone Buyer's Guide".
http://www.saxophone.org/buyersguide/5.html

That should get you started.

[JL]

Here's another more specific question that none of these sites really answer. Perhaps "no one knows." Anyhow, is there any real difference between the Buescher Aristocrat tenor with the big "B" inscription and the Aristocrat with the big bell but no big "B" inscription? I believe both horns are the model 156 (tenor). Except for that inscription they appear to be identical. Has anyone played both and found a difference?

Thanks to any who can shed light on this.

[Kosma]

JL, That's exactly the question I would like to have a definitive answer to.
I have not played both, but am buying a 340K tenor. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no difference other than the engraving.

It just makes no sense to me that Steve Goodson says the Big B is "the best" and the post B "plays rather nicely".

I vaguely remember discussing this before, but I don't think there was ever a consensus.

[Kosma]

I don't know how relevant this is, but my 351K bari has the Big B engraving.

[Hornlip]

Well, may as well get these tired old threads cranking again. . . :roll:!


As for Tenor Aristocrats, it seems like the major physical difference between the earlier Deco horns & the Big-B tenors is that the BB drops the G# trill key, has ribbon key guards, "v" shaped bell-to-body brace, a different octave key on the neck, and of course the enlarged bell. However, it seems that the appearance of the Big-B engraving did not perfectly coincide with the appearance of the enlarged bell. Some of the late 290xxx & early 300xxx 'Crat horns with the Big-B engraving appear to preserve the old-style bell as well as the G# trill. Check out the 294xxx horn & compare it to the first 317xxx horn at this link (from Saxpic's wonderful & instructive site):

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/buescher/aristocrat_series/aristocrat_ii/tenor/lacquer/

Also, here's the possibility of one sonic difference to keep in mind -- I've been having an overhaul done (by Mark Aronson) on my '39 'Crat (with Deco engraving). Had a couple of nice phone conversations with him. He told me that if you're using a more modern or jazzier sounding mouthpiece, the earlier 'Crat tenors tend to have a problem enunciating the low F, E, Eflat at pianissimo volumes. Apparently, the problem doesn't really occur if you're using a more old-fashioned open-chambered piece like a Link (which makes sense -- I bet Buescher was never even aware of the problem, having that kind of 'piece in mind, anyway). He said thd problem can be easily remedied by a body (or was it tone-hole?) liner. My horn shows the problem, but not as much as some and not as little as others. (I opted against the liner b/c he said it wasn't very pronounced on my horn & I tend to like more old-fashioned mouthpieces, anyway).

Further, he said that the problem dissappears in the Big-B horns -- but noting that the Big-B engraving overlaps with the old-style bell, I bet the problem doesn't clear until you hit the Big-B's with the Big-Bell. I don't get the idea that this is a big problem in any case, but it's something to keep in mind!!

[/b][/i]

[Bootman]

On the older Bueschers the Low C# can be problematic at mf dynamics, the problem disappears at FF or PP dynamics.

Modern hgh baffled mpcs can be problematic on the older Bueschers, Guardalas and similar can be amongst the most difficult to get to play on an older Buescher.

[Mike W]

I have a big B tenor (298xxx In think, it is at home and I am at the office,--about 1943 ish). It has the small bell (old style I guess). This horn plays just fine with Lawton BB, Vandoren Jumbo Java, Runyon Bionex, and Dukoff d mouthpieces. No low note problems at all. It just whispers low Bflat effortlessly.

[Bootman]

I have a feeling that the problem with the C# is actually due to the height the C# key opens. It isn't insurmountable and this problem is normally cured by correct air support.

[kerby]

i have wondered the same thing(refering to original post),i have a buescher aristocrat tenor no big b,but has the backside bell keys just like the top hat and cane,it also has ribbon style keygaurds but no underslung octave mech.,best of all i got it for 150 bucks, :wink:

[kerby]

i meant to say (refering to JL post)

[morgan]

<< is there any real difference between the Buescher Aristocrat tenor with the big "B" inscription and the Aristocrat with the big bell but no big "B" inscription? … Has anyone played both and found a difference?>>

<< JL, That's exactly the question I would like to have a definitive answer to.
I have not played both, but am buying a 340K tenor>>


All I've heard is rumors that the later Aristocrats were "de-emphasized" as the marketing department pushed the 400 model. Whether this means the manufacturing became slipshod or what ... unclear.

My 333k "no big B" tenor is a gem ... and was so inexpensive due to the lack of B.

[Hornlip]

Before the Great Crash took down half the posts here, someone (maybe Gayle Fredenburgh) stated that though the later Aristocrats were good horns, they drew the line on them at around 340xxx, which is somewhere in the later 50's, I think. After that they noticed a distinct (though not severe) difference in the horn's metal quality. The difference was negated if the horn happened to be silver-plated. I've heard this somewhere else as well, but I can't remember where. The "340xxx rule" didn't apply to the 400 series.

[JL]

Gayle told me that the earlier big bell Aristocrats without the "B" inscription (331xxx range) were essentially identical to those with the "B" inscription. Then the metal gradually changed into the mid to late '50s. In any case, the 331xxx model I have is a killer. Still not sure it'll replace my MK VI, but I enjoy alternating between the two.

[paulwl]

Mark Aronson [...] told me that if you're using a more modern or jazzier sounding mouthpiece, the earlier 'Crat tenors tend to have a problem enunciating the low F, E, Eflat at pianissimo volumes. Apparently, the problem doesn't really occur if you're using a more old-fashioned open-chambered piece like a Link [...]
I bet even a Link would be pushing things a bit for Mark, unless it was a VERY early model like the Master, which is full gospel barrel chamber.

I don't have the F-E-Eb problem with any mpcs, but I do have an occasional "whoosh" on low C# as Bootman mentions. Thing is, I only get it at the extreme pp end - regardless of mpc. Even the Tru-Lay!

[Hornlip]

I bet even a Link would be pushing things a bit for Mark, unless it was a VERY early model like the Master, which is full gospel barrel chamber.

:D You're probably right. We had a nice phone conversation -- fascinating for me. Sometime during it I realized he was really old school!! I was happy -- made me more sure that my horn was in good hands.

I've been trying out various mouthpieces on my 'Crat, & I haven't had any problems with the F-E-Eb, either, though most the pieces I've got are relatively old-fashioned in their chambers.

[paulwl]

I took a hint from your experience and applied Dr. Scholl's Moleskin padding opposite the low C# tonehole of the offending tenor (cut to aq circle about the size of the hole). The whoosh is not gone, but greatly reduced.