Flat middle C on new Serie III Alto

[selmersaxfan]

I have a few days left to decide to keep this horn or return it.

It's incredibly easy to play and sounds great with the exception of middle C which sounds airy and flat.

I was wondering if someone might have any suggestions. Could it be me? the horn? leaks? the setup? (Beechler S5, Hemke 3 reed, and Rovner ligature).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Demolisher_2000]

Yes, I have the same problem on my new serie 3 silver plated alto. That is probably the only off-intonation note i know of. I wonder if this is usual for the serie 3 horns?
thanks

[singlereed]

Its fine on mine.

The alternate C (B with side C key) is often a purer and cleaner note on many saxes, but I couldn't accept a horn on which the sound with the standard fingering was weak. The two fingerings of the note will sound different to the player as well as you will hear some sound throught the open C key on the alternate version.

One little idiosyncracy of the III alto is that extra pad that opens with the C# in the upper register (think that's right, my horn is being serviced at the moment so I can't look at the mechanism as I write) and I suppose its possible something isn't seating properly there. Of course, you may have a pad that is not opening properly or it could be something going on in the B/Bb area or elsewhere.

You should certainly query to with the dealer or get a tech to check it over, my experience of a year or so living with mine is that the Serie III alto have very even intonation and tone quality throughout, although it only really came to life when I have it professionally checked over; some of the mechanisms are complex and the factory set-up was 'sub optimum'!

[Brice B.]

It really sounds like the horn to me. I've owned 2 III's, and I never had that problem. Could be a leak.

[selmersaxfan]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm hoping it's just a leak. I'll take another look.

I also sent a request for suggestions from the dealer.

[Grumps]

I've brought up the subject of poor intonation of recently imported III altos in other threads concerning the III. It's been pointed out that Selmer had employed a fix on known problems with G2 in the form of widening the G octave tone hole. I've always suspected that this fix might have something to do with intonation problems in current production III's, yet there has been no definitive answer to these concerns.

[selmersaxfan]

I received a phone call from the dealer's sax specialist. He indicated that the Serie III C# vent is designed to offset the normal tendency for C/C# to play sharp. On saxes without the vent the player needed to make throat adjustments to play those notes in tune. The new vent flattens those notes so that the player need not make any adjustments.

After further experimentation I found I could "nearly" eliminate the problem with subtle changes in embouchure. Unfortunately the changes felt so subtle it was difficult to maintain for any length of time. Perhaps its just a matter of getting used to horn.

I also performed a thorough leak check and found none.

[Demolisher_2000]

That is very odd because my serie 3 does have c# vent key. I think all of them do. Im not sure if there are any leaks and it is new so I have to get it tuned up.
Any other idea of what is causing this?

[selmersaxfan]

What the guy was telling me is that if you're used to playing a sax without the vent, you may be accommodating the normally sharp C/C#. Doing so with the SIII would make it play flat. I did find this to be true to some extent, but it didn't explain the airy (fuzzy?) sound that really bugs me. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am able to clean it up to an acceptable level with subtle embouchure adjustments, but it's difficult to maintain.

[Grumps]

I use a couple of different techs and whenever one of them works on my alto SBA, he leaves the middle C a bit stuffy. I always have him readjust this which he is able to do by adjusting the key heights. The stuffy sound may be corrected by a simple adjustment by a decent tech. I would make sure this is done before committing to the horn purchase. It might help the intonation as well. I must admit, I'm a bit wary of these new Frankenhorns coming out with new keys, tone holes and compensation gadgets. To me, it's just more places to develop leaks or other problems that will require additional adjustment ..... although I can see how techs might look forward to these new horns.

[Bob221]

I had problems with my Serie III around my C key. There's a pivot mechanism which involved cork on metal and the cork came off several times locking up several keys (on newer models I think they now use a nylon screw instead). When my new tech fixed on new cork he also regulated the instrument and this mechanism in particular and I noticed a improvement in the fullness of sound on the C so I'm basically echoing singlereed's advice to get it checked over. ( you may be able to play around with the adjustment yourself as I think it just involves a screw turn!)

[Demolisher_2000]

I had my problem fixed when I tried a new s80 C* that came with the serie 3. I guess I had warped my old mouthpeice because I might have washed it with warm water when I didnt know much about saxophones a couple years ago. I notice a much fuller and bigger sound added with the new mouthpeice. On my old saxophone, I may have not noticed the difference but the serie 3 is affected A LOT by small changes. I notice it right away on the serie 3 and the c key is a lot better now.

:D

[Gordon (NZ)]

Grumps, I agree that this is a possibility. Because C has one tone hole('B') open and the next two (Bb & A) closed, it must be very susceptible to dullness &/or flatness if there is inadequate venting under the B key. Indeed, in attempt to overcome this problem the B tone hole is made huge compared with its neighbours.

Yes, a clued up tech could increase the venting, but on a millennium model there are many adjustment repercussions, including the C# & octave mechanisms and all the upper stack keys. I think that any increase in venting would affect the C far more than the other neighbouring notes.

It is possible that Selmer are careless with venting specifications (as with so many other things!) When I bought my tenor a few years ago the importer unwrapped & opened three cases, direct from Paris. The venting on these three was highly variable, as I recall by about 3 mm on stack keys.

[selmersaxfan]

My thanks to Grumps and Gordon. The problem was the B key height.

The B key visually appeared to be lower than the C key. As a test I played C while watching a tuner. The slightest amount of pressure on the B key made the C flatter. That was enough evidence for me to carefully remove a few keys and judiciously sand the appropriate cork spacers to raise the B key ever so slightly. It took 4 cycles of remove keys - sand - replace keys to get it right, but C now sounds great and the action is still tight. :D