not enough AIR

[Jazzophone]

I normally play tenor sax and I'm playing baritone sax for the school musical (The Wiz -- I'm carrying the Reed 4 book solo, flute/clar/bari). It's going OK and the show opens this Thursday, but I'm STILL having major problems. One of them is the breathing/breath control/running out of air thing. There's one song where the first 16 bars or so are all low C# (if any of you know the show, it's "Meet the Wizard"), and I find even at a fast tempo I can't hold that note at forte for 8 counts, it just is impossible. Is there ANYTHING I can do to increase that? I've been practising that like mad, but it just isn't helping very much.

Also, I'm having trouble with the low notes in general, there's no leak on the horn or anything (she's in pretty beat-up shape, but the keys and pads are all right) but I can't hit low C# to low A on cue very often, and I'm having huge problems playing stuff like the bass line on the break-down sections in "Born on the Day Before Yesterday." Any ideas on that? I originally was using a metal Link Super Tonemaster 4* with a Rico Royal 3.5 and that was working out OK, and sometimes I play with a plastic Selmer C* (same reed) but the easy factor varies from day to day so I'm not sure which I'll be playing the show with.

ACK! Please help!

[Kosma]

I'd have it checked for leaks. One thing you can check yourself is the G# key. See if it moves when you: Finger low C, while looking at the G# key, hit the low C#, B, Bb. If the G# sharp key moves, um, that's bad.
Or you could have other leakers. The low notes shouldn't be that hard to hit when the horn is tight. I sometimes bump the F palm key accidentally when going for a low note. That's also bad.
For the breathing, I think the best thing is to exercise and get yourself really winded every day or so. It helps. Good Luck!

[danm]

Jazzophone , I have the same problem with how long I can hold a note on bari. I am also a tenor player for 20+ years. I was originally playing on a Conn 12m and it took a lot of wind to just get notes out of this horn. It would sound great but I could only hold a note for a couple of measures at a time. I switched to a horn with a smaller bore and that solved the problem but the sound is also a lot smaller. Ok for the community band not OK for the Jazz band. I am still trying out different mouthpieces and reeds which I think will help. You may have some leaks on that horn also. For low notes I have quite a bit more mouthpiece in my mouth than I do when I play my tenor. Relaxing also helps. Good luck.

[rcwjd]

Congratulations on playing an "anchor" position. I always consider those low tones my power notes, and the whole piece won't sound the same without you down there putting some bottom in it. So now the problem: how to sustain the low notes. Secondly, how to attack the low notes and get them to respond when you need them.

First, get your mental image set that you really love those low notes (I'm not really kidding here. Those low notes booming out are what can make or break the effectiveness of a piece). Having said that, one thing that jumps out at me is that you may have way too stiff a reed (even for that relatively closed mpc). Get yourself a Fibracell #2, a Fibracell #1.5, and a Fibracell #2.5 and try each. Use the softest reed that you can play. This is a quick and possibly easy fix. The softer reed will add body to your tone, and it will make it much easier to get them to respond on demand. Also, loosen your emboucher from what you are used to on tenor, and drop your jaw.

Remember that you are filling up a tube with a lot more volume than you have with the tenor. With that in mind, fill your lungs to the point that you think they are going to pop just before you get to that section. Lay out half a beat just before the section to get yourself ready if you have to. Also, the louder you play, the quicker the air runs out. Remember that the low C# is going to project out there a lot better than you will hear it from where you are sitting (you are behind the sound). You may be able to lay back just a bit to conserve air and it will sound just fine out front. Your director will tell you.

If you have enough time and the inclination and bucks to do it (see if the school will pay for it), get yourself a Morgan 6J mouthpiece. You will find it much easier to pop those notes out, and you will sound much better. Moreover, you just might have so much fun that you won't want to give that bari back.

Finally, if you have time and can do it, go get a horn tech to check for leaks. I agree that a likely culprit is the G# key affecting those low notes. However, unless you have a really bad leak, you would be surprised at how you can still get those notes out with enough air. But then running out of air is one of the problems isn't it? If you have small hands, be careful of bumping the palm keys. It can affect gettting the initial response on the lower notes where you wouldn't use an octave key. Bumping the palm keys is kind of like opening the octave key where you don't want it.

Finally, sit back and enjoy playing. You will do fine.

[MojoBari]

That's not an easy book. Are you covering the flute/clar parts too? Some of the oboe lines sound better on flute than clarinet to me, but that depends on your chops.

Its probably not worth it for one show, but a more open set-up on bari with a softer reed might help. Even with you current pieces, a #3 reed might be better. Take in more mouthpiece and let that reed resonate to its fullest.

Now the long tones. Play that low C# and time how long you can hold it at a good pitch and volume. Count metronome beats or watch the seconds on a clock. Try it again after taking a bigger breath. Try some other low notes. If you work on it you should see a little progress each day.

Play you bass lines slowly at first. Get them under your fingers. Memorize them. Play them backwards and inside out (play the notes in the bass line in a different order).

It comes down to having good equipment, good fingers, good breath, and a good concept of how it all is suppose to go together.

[Jazzophone]

Wow, thanks for all the help! I have done the leak test on the G# key and all seems to be working well, I don't think that's the problem (but with a school rental horn, I don't deny that there are probably eight hundred other problems for one working aspect ...)

MojoBari -- I'm covering the clarinet parts and the oboe parts (but I'm playing the oboe stuff on flute; originally it was going to be on soprano sax but we couldn't get one from the school board, and I didn't have time to learn two instruments: I learned clarinet specifically for the musical!) as well as bari. It makes it even more difficult when I have to switch from clarinet to bari sax back to clarinet -- my embouchure suffers A LOT. I'll try getting a softer reed.

rcwjd -- Hey, how can you play bari without lovin' the low end? Heck, I spent twenty minutes one class just working on my low B, Bb and (the best) A. I remember one rehearsal when I got in late, and they started the song without me -- does it ever sound different without that low stuff. :P Anyway, in regard to the reeds, I'll try -- but they're going to be regular cane reeds, there's no way I'll be able to get Fibracells this fast (the music stores are all pretty far from where I am -- the place where I buy reeds from sells only Rico Royals, and usually open-box ... plus the budget for fibracells is a leetle high for a ninth grade student :P)

Thanks everybody ... I'll try out some of the suggestions and see how it goes. Much appreciated!!

[rcwjd]

With someone like you who gives doubling a whole new meaning, you should do fine. If you really want to try the Fibracells, I suggest picking the #2. I'll bet if you checked on <www.gigdust.com> and explained your problem to Charlie A, he might be able to expedite getting a reed out to you quick enough to get there by Wednesday. If not, I'll bet at least one music store in Calgary will carry at least one of the following in my own personal order of preference: Alexander 2.5, Rico Royal Jazz Select 2.0, or Vandoren plain blue box #2. You have a better chance of getting a playable reed by going with the Alexander or Jazz Select reeds. I would go with the Selmer C# mpc. Good luck.

[Morry]

One thing that I often forget at first when I pick a bari up after a long time of not playing one, is to look for opportunities to breathe. It sounds like a stupid thing, but let me use an analogy.

When I go biking, I always make myself pedal even on the downhill portions of the road. Why? Do I need to in order to get down the hill? No, obviously not, but it may give me an advantage on whatever terrain comes next.

I do the same with a bari. If I'm playing a passage on alto or tenor, I might choose to breathe at certain rests, but not at others simply because I still have breath left. On bari, I breathe every chance I get. If I'm playing a staccatto passage, I might breathe between every note, first to make sure I have full lungs at all times, but also as a timing trigger to make sure I'm anticipating the notes, often necessary to get those low tones out on time.

Just keep in mind that bari is a different animal, and often has to be approached differently.

[zgatt]

I'd suggest trying some other reeds. Both softer ones, and brands that are more responsive than the ricos.

[bari_sax_diva]

I'll elaborate a bit on the excellent advice Morry gave you...

On baritone, you gotta breathe. You have to do that on the other saxes, too, but you don't have to pay the same *attention* to it that you do on baritone. And since there's often this gigantic hole when the bari player takes an ill-timed breath (especially when you're playing a low root of a chord on some ballad), I've become somewhat of a fanatic about phrasing.

So... get a pencil out and add those breath marks. If a passage is going to end on any note lower than a low D (arrangers love to write those!), or if there's no good place to breathe for several bars, you might also write yourself a note to take a BIG breath. I usually think in terms of four-bar phrases for ballads when I'm playing sustained roots (like on all those Dave Wolpe vocal charts), and I'll take my cues from the lead alto or lead trombone--whoever is dictating phrasing on the line I'm playing--the rest of the time. The important thing is to mark those spots and make them part of your rehearsal. This way, you're not caught out of breath in the middle of the second-to-last chord of the tune. :cry:

Also--seems like you should be able to hold a C# for at least eight counts at a moderate tempo, unless you're really blasting it out. If you're out of breath before that--even if baritone is a double--then it's time to get the horn checked. For the time being, though, scale back on reed strength. Bari takes air, but you shouldn't have to kill yourself, especially with that mouthpiece.

Hope this helps,
Leanne

[Jazzophone]

Thanks, Leanne. I've done the go-through-the-book-and-mark-in-breathing gig, and it's helped a bunch (I'm used to playing tenor, and I can go WAY longer on that horn than on the bari ... and so I often find myself running out of air extremely quickly). Surprisingly though, when I played the two shows we had yesterday, the 3.5 reed worked like a charm on the C* and I hit the notes and held them down pretty well. I'm still suspicious that there's a huge leak somewhere other than the G# key, but not sure where it is. I'm definitely going to make them send the horn in to a tech, but in the school system it often takes forever just to get them to send it out ...!

Thanks for the help, guys! One more show to do and I'm virtually finished with this particular bari anyway ... I'm going to lobby to do more bari stuff in high school next year though, because as many problems as I've had with the beast, I love it to pieces :D

[Storamin]

Way to be mate. Bari is the king of saxes.