Chamber / Sidewall modifications? (Melliphone

[morgan]

I have this Melliphone Steel Ebonite alto piece - - I know they're not popular, I don't know why I like it, but I do - - it makes a really nice sound for me, solid and with a funny throaty thing that is very cool.

It has an intonation problem where E2 and D#2 and, to a lesser extent, F2, will spike way sharp compared to their neighbors F# and D.

Doc made some allusion to the fact that the straight sidewalls are related to the intonation issue.

To some extent this intonation problem is MY problem not the mouthpiece problem as it happens on quite a few mpcs (but is noticeably better on a Runyon) and I play more tenor than alto so I may be neglecting some aspect of proper alto embouchure.

So ... what happens if you try to reshape the chamber, taking the straight sidewalls down just a tad (approaching roundness) ?

(a) Same cool sound, better intonation?
(b) Utterly change sound, don't fix intonation, mpc in the trash?

[MS]

Depending on how far you go and where, I would expect the sound to become a little more diffuse (spread out some). A slight facing change might help with those intonation areas.
On some instruments it's not uncommon for those notes to want to play sharp. You can learn to voice those in tune. Have a good repairman check how far your Eb, low C and (to a lesser extent low B and Bb) are opening. Those key heights can affect intonation some.
1) check the key openings first
2) try your mps on other horns and see if you get the same tuning result.
3) unless you have experience modifying mps, I would test on older back up mps first.

Many makers will put a good facing (with a flat table) on the mps first, then adjust the baffle/chamber for sound and response. Sometimes taking off a very small amount of material will make a big difference. The trick is to know where to stop when it's almost perfect. The initial mps design may limit what can be done without adding baffles or remaking the whole design. Good luck and have fun. :D

[morgan]

Oh I have no interest in becoming experienced at mpc adjustment. I kinda had mojo in mind

[Joe]

Morgan, do these intonation problems happen on other altos for you? If not, then the problem is probably your sax. If you have ithe same intonation problems on other altos (and it's happening with other pieces as you said), then the problem is likely with you. Since you're having these problems on other pieces, I wouldn't mess at all with the piece I liked best. I would instead figure out what the real problem is.

It is possible, but unlikely, that the problem could be a horn/mouthpiece mismatch since the Runyon is better in tune. What type of alto are you using?

[morgan]

Mostly fooling around with SML and 26M. It's a messy mix of problems since it does vary from one horn to another and one mpc to another, but it's still too prevalent to even think of ruling out what we in my day job call Operator Error.

So maybe I need to do a ton of long tones before I re-ask the question.

Whoops! Day job! Child care! Sick spouse care! Sick parents care! Forgot to practice again!

and on we go...

[MojoBari]

Rounding the side walls will open up the chamber volume and will make the piece darker and mellower, but not a loud. Opening the chamber volume makes the sax flatter if you put the MP back to the same spot on the neck cork. When you push it in to tune the sax better, it will sharpen the short length notes greater than the long tube notes. Your palm keys will go a little sharp, or if they were flat, it will help bring them in tune. Your low notes may be a tad flat. Soprano sax seems more sensitive to MP volume than the larger saxes.

I do not know of a MP alteration that will help the notes you are having problems with. Embochure exercises and sax key heights adjustments may help. If its just a bad sax (bad tone hole locations) you can flatten a note by gluing a strip of material, like cork, along the top of the tone hole to make it smaller (or longer, away from the MP). You can use adheasive backed synthetic cork to try it out. It will make the notes flatter in both octaves. Maybe you need to split the difference.

It is possible to modify a neck to tune problem notes. Ferron descibes this in his book, but it seems more appropriate for instrument design development.

[paulwl]

I have a Meliphone Special alto myself (silver shank, B6 facing). It's all but identical to my Dick Stabile Woodwind. Neither of them present any tuning difficulties that I wouldn't run into with a contemporary vintage round chamber (Broadus, NY Woodwind). The Stabile, in fact, is one of the best playing alto pieces I've ever run across.
<$.02>

[MS]

Isn't that a Woodwind brand mps (Melihpone)? Doesn't it already play pretty dark?

I think I'd try some other mps to get an idea of what you might want the mps changed to if you have it worked on. I don't know your playing experience, but a few lessons with a good teacher might include evaluation if it's the mps or you that is the problem.

[morgan]

I have a Meliphone Special alto myself ...identical to my Dick Stabile ... one of the best playing alto pieces I've ever run across.


Yeah it is a nice sounding piece isn't it. Dark, yet rough.

Maybe I'll play it on a few more models or even *gasp* a new horn.

The effect I see is when I face the tuner, and don't alter my breath and embouchure but just walk deliberately from F#- F- E , the tuner needle takes a big spiky jump to the right. On arrival at D, the needle goes back home.

I'm a pretty experienced player but have spent more time on tenor for years, and rather suspect I've developed some kind of alto-specific bad habit that I can't quite put my finger on.

[max]

Or maybe your tenor is really flat on those notes and you're bringing the compensating over to alto... :wink:

[MS]

Morgan
Are the pad heights of your right hand C, D , E and F particularly open? If there's a master repairman around, you might want him/her to check the open key heights of your right hand stack.
Does your 1/4 Bb work -can you leave your low Bb (LH spatulas) and play G# and back?
I've had the foot cork come off the RH D key and allow the D to open too much when I play E or F making them sharp. but the other linkages still worked fine.
If the key heights are OK, is the chamber style of the Meliphone much different than what you're currently playing on tenor? MIght you be trying to pull the sound together and make it brighter and tighter on a dark mps? Or some other voicing thing to get the sound/response you're comfortable with.

If you can play overtones (off the low Bb,B, C, C#), you might play the first overtone of those notes and compare with the regular fingerings of Bb2, B2, C2, and C#2. This is for oral cavity/vocal tract voicing comparison. When you get confortable with a generalized voicing, try comparing the pitch of B, C, and C3 -open with harmonic. That should get you close to the horn being in tune with its self, even if not in tune with the tuner yet. Then go back to fingering the low Bb 1 and play F2. compare your generalized voicing with the regular fingering for F2.
If all this stuff is close, go back to the tuner and check low F1. Fool around with air speed and tongue position to get it in tune if it's off. If it's flat, cusihion the embouchure reed grip a little.
I find the voicing and resistance to be quite different on mouthpieces/horns with a random variety of mps, and usually work my way toward a mps/reed combination that palys in a similar manner for me.

If all the above stuff helps in any way, try to remember how the voicing feels. Then do the same with you tenor, and pay attention to any voicing differences. As you switch horns, try to key the memory of the differences.

You mentioned in your first post that a Runyon mps tuned better. The Runyons that I have tunes very well and play even for me too althought I don't play them too often. I swap around - guess I have mouthpiece GAS.

I appoligize if all the above stuff is not relevant/applicable to your situation. Good luck and have fun. :D

[morgan]

Does your 1/4 Bb work -can you leave your low Bb (LH spatulas) and play G# and back?

I found all your suggestions useful, but this one(or two) I simply don't understand.

Or... is "1/4 Bb" what I call "1 and 1" Bb (both index fingers) ... yeah it works; horn is regulated ok

and the second question is "does automatic G# work" ... yes (tho I am puzzled as to the relevance)

[MS]

Morgan
Yes I meant the 1/1 Bb. If the right hand stack is too high,quite often the adjustment for the 1/1 Bb will be hard to regulate. the same with the Articulated G#. If you hold down the low Bb spatula and take off your right hand, a G#1 should sound. Then by adding the right hand a low Bb should sound. (the exception here would be some vintage horns). These two linkages have to be delt with in setting up stack key height. Has more to do with horn regulation than playing. Sorry I wasn't clear. Just trying to do brain surgery by email (hehehe). 8)

[morgan]

Well, never mind the whole problem. The Melliphone can play out of tune or in tune or anywhere it wants. I got my mitts on a Gale Companion and I never want to play another alto mouthpiece. It's perfectly in tune, and oh that luscious sound, and ... guess what no edgy harsh upper register ...

MGAS RIP ...

[MS]

Congratulations! Sometimes it takes a while to find the mps/horn that's you. The mps or horn doesn't do it all, but a good match for you helps. Have fun.