Key issues playing with guitarists

[Admark]

First practice tonight of our new jazz combo. I've only played in concert bands and big bands, so this is new for me. Our guitarist is spearheading this, and his wife is going to sing.

I have advance copies of some of the music, and one of them is in the key of E, which puts me in the awful key of C-sharp (or the not-much-better F-sharp if I play soprano). This was chosen, I think, based on the range of the vocalist.

I'm kind of a beginning improviser, and that key scares me to death. I keep thinking that if they just move the key a half step either way to concert key F or E-flat, it would be so much nicer for me on either horn. And a half step would surely not throw it out of range for the singer.

My question is, wouldn't F or E-flat be nicer for the guitar, too? Since I've never played with a guitarist (outside of big bands), I only assume they think the same way we do, that fewer sharps or flats in the signature is generally easier! Is that true, or is key not such an issue for guitarists?

I don't want to be high maintenance, but I don't really want to play with seven sharps, either. Any advice? Will this be a constant issue?

[Vortex]

I have advance copies of some of the music, and one of them is in the key of E, which puts me in the awful key of C-sharp (or the not-much-better F-sharp if I play soprano). This was chosen, I think, based on the range of the vocalist.

I'm kind of a beginning improviser, and that key scares me to death. I keep thinking that if they just move the key a half step either way to concert key F or E-flat, it would be so much nicer for me on either horn. And a half step would surely not throw it out of range for the singer.

My question is, wouldn't F or E-flat be nicer for the guitar, too? Since I've never played with a guitarist (outside of big bands), I only assume they think the same way we do, that fewer sharps or flats in the signature is generally easier! Is that true, or is key not such an issue for guitarists?

I don't want to be high maintenance, but I don't really want to play with seven sharps, either. Any advice? Will this be a constant issue?

Aah, playing with guitarists. I'm about as good at guitar as I am saxophone, so I'll answer this for you. It could well be that the music was chosen based on the range of the vocalist, but more likely it was chosen by the guitarist.

Consider that the standard tuning of the guitar from low to high strings is E A D G B E. That makes the keys of E, A, and D particularly convenient as they can be played with "open" voicings - in other words the guitarist has to work less and, if they're good, play much more technically. A lot of guitarists write things in the key of E because it's so easy; this is also why so many blues (see: rock blues) are in the key of E. It leads to an easy transition to A, and rock blues doesn't use II-V-I's, it uses I-IV-V's, which honestly I think are kinda cheesy. We're generally not too creative with our voicings either... lots of root-5th-octave, maybe with a couple other notes mixed in - the exceptions come in when we can use voicings that involve open strings, the ones that aren't finger-stretchers anyway. And if all else fails, time for some string-muted wah clicking ala Shaft.

As for F and Eb... those would be quite bad. Most guitarists are ear players - they know their fretboard and intervals, not notation, so the amount of sharps/flats is irrevalent. Ever see how commercial guitarists write music? Go to www.ultimate-guitar.com to see some, it's kinda shocking. As good a sightreader I am on sax and clarinet, I hardly read music at all, ever, on guitar. Eb is a real pain for most guitarists as it really tests their command of the instrument since there aren't many "easy" voicings in that key, but not for me since I prefer to tune all my strings down a half step (less resistance, deeper bends, more resonance). And with the key of F, you'd have to do a lot of voicings starting on the 1st fret which can mean some serious finger-stretching.

As for not liking the keys... well, you'll have to learn them sometime, may as well do it now. *know your scales!* Don't think in the idea of sharps and flats, think of INTERVALS. This will make it easier to survive this gig, and once you get your scales down and start thinking in that manner, you don't care what key it is.

Hope I helped

[JL]

Admark, I usually qualify any advice I give with some statement such as, "for what it's worth," or "imo," etc. But in this case I'll say straight out, without qualifying it, that you have to learn to play in ALL keys with equal facility. The good news is that F#, C#, and other keys with lots of flats or sharps are NO MORE DIFFICULT to improvise in than any other keys, once you get used to them (through practice, of course).

Guitarists like E concert (it's "easier" for them, although the good guitarists can play in any key, just like the good horn players) so it may not be the vocalist who wants that key. In any case, it shouldn't take all that long to get used to playing in E concert. Just work on it. Instead of thinking of all those sharps or flats, just shed the major scale, dominant scale, and pentatonic (maj & min) for eash key until you get them "under your fingers." If you play with other musicians you'll end up playing in many different keys such as E, G, A, C, D concert (and most of the others as well). The only keys that don't seem come up much for some reason are Eb and B (concert). All the rest are commonly used.

[kcp]

Aah, playing with guitarists...

Exactly my thoughts

...As for not liking the keys... well, you'll have to learn them sometime, may as well do it now. *know your scales!* Don't think in the idea of sharps and flats, think of INTERVALS. This will make it easier to survive this gig, and once you get your scales down and start thinking in that manner, you don't care what key it is.

Hope I helped

That is so true, Vortex is right, it won't hurt if you learn these keys.
I first started playing sax in a garage band which was made of 3 guitarists, 1 bass and 1 drum. Gotta say that I thought it was tough at the beginning but I got quickly used to play in these odd keys full of sharps - It became like a second nature to the point that even today, I can comfortably play in those keys by ear but to tell you the truth, I have no idea what I'm doing, I just know that I can do it -- So if there is some advice I can give you on this is to make a special effort into trying to understand what it is that you play. Know the scales and arpeggios, name the notes. In the long run, this will prove to be beneficial :)

Also what I've done is occasionally bringing-up a tune in a good key for sax and guitar. It take time and patience because some guitarists (at least those I knew) are not very open to try playing in keys that they are not confortable with - For this you have to come prepared: Make some lead sheets, one transposed for saxophone and make a version with the chords written only on staff in concert for the guitarist(s)... If you can make it into guitar tablature for them that's even better, they'll love you. :)

Doing the above will only help you become a better musician - If you can learn guitar or bass a little that will help too.
I picked-up electric bass a little over 3 years ago and I realised I should have done that long ago - What I did is that I first purposly learned to play walking bass lines in every possible keys except E, A and B :twisted: And then when I was ready, I called my old garage-band buddies for a jam and I demonstrated to them how playing in Bb isn't really that much harder than playing in B or playing in G or F not much harder than E, etc...

The fact that they could "see" what I was playing on my frettboard helped them tremendously.

<edit> sorry JL, I didn't mean to ignore your post, I was busy typing mine while you entered yours</edit>

[dpwadw]

In short, if its written for a rock band, its usually not a wind instrument-friendly key...and vice versa.

I agree that knowing your scales and thinking in intervals are great ways to advance quickly.

One rather silly way to learn improvisation in E etc, is to simply play over popular recordings. Most rock/pop music out there is going to be in tough keys, so try to emulate the sax players there who have already adapted.

The first solos I learned in difficult keys were "Just the way you are" and "Mama don't dance" by Billy Joel and Loggins & Messina respectively. I remember these being very tough back then. First I copied what they played, and then began to relearn the improv riffs I knew from comfortable keys.

Now those keys don't intimidate me, in part because I simply played alot with popular recordings.

[JL]

In short, if its written for a rock band, its usually not a wind instrument-friendly key...and vice versa.

The first solos I learned in difficult keys ....

dpwadw, with due respect (and your point here about playing with recordings is excellent), I think it's a mistake to use terms like "wind-instrument-friendly key" or "difficult keys." The fact is no key is more difficult to play in than any other. It's just that some keys are more familiar than others. The trick is to "even out" all the keys. If you think about it, playing a C# on the sax is no more difficult than playing a C natural. It's just as easy to finger F# as it is to finger G, etc. Now I will grant you that it is perhaps a bit more difficult to READ music in keys with lots of flats and sharps, but even that gets easier with practice. But improvising and playing "by ear" is more a matter of getting used to each and every key, and thinking in terms of intervals (as others have pointed out). What I found really helpful was to get familiar with the actual notes for each degree of each major scale. For example, in the key of C, the 5th is G, the 6th is A, and the 3rd is E. In the key of F#, the 5th is C#, the 7th is F, the 4th is B, etc. etc.

Getting back to guitarists, I play with them all the time since I primarily play blues/funk/R&B. All the good guitar players (and man, you don't want to play with the bad ones!) have no problem handling keys like concert F, Bb, etc. I occasionally get a funny look when I call Night Train in Ab concert (so I can honk that low Bb on my tenor), but they can and will do it. If you run into a guitarist who will only play in E and A, I'd look for another guitarist.

[Admark]

Thanks very much, everyone. Now I at least know where the other guys are coming from, and that some of my assumptions were wrong. I thought they were making it needlessly hard on themselves and me.

Just being a "reading" player all these years, I am ingrained with the idea that more sharps or flats equals hard, while fewer equals easy. Obviously the answer is to learn my stuff and change my way of thinking.

[groovesax]

To me, the most sinister thing about guitar players is not their choice of keys, but their propensity to increase their volume levels as the evening progresses.

[kcp]

"...as the evening progresses"
-Are you sure about that? ;)

[Vortex]

To me, the most sinister thing about guitar players is not their choice of keys, but their propensity to increase their volume levels as the evening progresses.

...and, I might add, their propensity to decrease their concern with :twisted: intonation. Most guitarists suck.

I'm kind of biased against jazz guitarists, as I can't stand their style and sound, although I am a big fan of George Benson (check out his work with Freddie Hubbard on the Sky Dive and First Light albums...fun!) Joe Negri is a good one as well. If you want to hear *good* modern guitar, get Steve Vai's album "The 7th Song" and let your jaw drop as you hear "For The Love of God". Not jazz, but outstanding improvization, and certainly worth at least one listen.

On another note, I really think that if someone who didn't know what notes were what and had no ability to read music were to pick up the horn and get decent, they would be just as comfortable in G# as any other key.

[JL]

I have to say I really like GOOD blues guitarists. And some jazz guitarists, but not ones who just run a bunch of notes (of course this applies to horn players also). I don't think it's really fair to run down guitarists in general, though. I know so many cats who can really play the guitar, know how to control their volume, and generally know what they are doing, that I can't say I dislike guitarists. Quite the contrary. But yeah, I've run into the out of tune, ear-splitting, Stevie Ray Vaughn wanabes also. They drive me crazy. Even worse, though, are the sax players who can't play in tune and don't know when to lay out! Except maybe for the harp players who get too carried away.........

Bottom line--do your homework. Cheers.

[Admark]

Well, the band rehearsal went really well last night. Playing in F-sharp wasn't bad at all, though I will stick pretty close to the melody until I have some time in the shed to work the scales and chords. We have a singer in the group, so I can play kind of a supporting role, thank goodness. Thanks again for all the info here.

[groovesax]

"...as the evening progresses"
-Are you sure about that? ;)

Righto, my bad... as the evening regresses into what's referred to as "the drunk set" :drunken: :drunken: :blackeye: :violent1: :drunken: :blackeye: :dontknow:

[singlereed]

May as well get used to it - favourite guitar keys: E, A, D, G, F, C - that gives the alto player a minimum of 2 sharps and usually a lot more.

[cbcohick]

Another thing to keep in mind is that you are going to end up playing a lot of flat 3s, 5's, and 7's, which knocks the nastiness out of those popular guitar keys. Just keep practicing. It becomes second nature eventually.

[guidovivaldi]

I sorta play guitar and here's my 2 cents...

Guitarists playing by ear is no worse than sax's not being able to play in C# or F#. You gota be able to read music on Guitar. Now, this may be some brilliant idea, or I may be totaly off, but lets pretend for just one moment that the guitar was tuned down half a step, so it was Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Bb, Eb.

In this setup a tenor would be in F and the alto would be in C, both nice keys. The guitarist could play off of the same music he would play off of for E, but it would be half a step lower. In all reality, Eb is'nt a hard key for anyone, though E for guitar is definantly more friendly. At any rate, the guitarist plays the E sheet music on a half step down tuning set up, and what was once his F# is now an F. It would be just as friendly to him, but insted of an E open string, he would be playin an Eb. His sheet music could show an E major chord, and he fingers such, and out comes Eb major.

And as far as the vocalist goes, unless you know your pitches good, if you have a piano player than can play out the melody for the vocalist in Eb, she will learn it in Eb. Unless your throwing around losta incedentals, it will be easy to stick in key.

There is a good point to be made here and that is: KNOW YOUR SCALES! A smart teacher once told me that he teaches everything chromaticly, so that insted of playin in C, F, a, d your whole first year, you are doing everything chromaticly. It seams really weird, but what his idea is, consists in the fact that a G# is'nt any harder to play than a D, E or any other note. You can't think of B#, E# or whatever as a different type of note than a C or D. This is why guitar players really have it easy, cause 1st fret is really no different than 2nd fret. Play your scales religiously. It will help with tone doin it slow, finger speed fast, vibrato if your lackin on that, over all mind for music in 3rds and 4ths and cool stuff, soloing by just knowing them and all sorts of other stuff. When I practice, I first play some odd thing me and my alto buddy made up, but then I always do scales. It's an odd concept but...

EVERY NOTE IS A NOTE, AND THEY ARE REALLY NO DIFFERENT, SO DON'T GET FREEKED OUT BY ODD SCALES!!!

Edit: just thought of this. if it's some kinda popular tune, hearin it in Eb might be kinda odd compared to E. and sigmund and vortex are so totaly right about this. piano players are the way to go for jazz. do it like my bud sonny rollins, piano, bass, sax. singers are optional

[tbone]

Maybe, with a little luck, the vocalist will have trouble hitting the high notes and you can convince the band to tune a half step flat!

[Sigmund451]

I played guitar years before sax (thats recent). I also trained under a very accomplished jazz guitarist. I, however, would not begin to claim to be good. Vortex is right. Most guitarists suck. They think that they are good but know very little. Its a much safer bet to find a piano player. They somehow dont automatically believe they can play once they learn Smoke on The water...or some thereabouts equalivant. Playing those keys are tough. Its just one of those things ya gotta learn. (when i get around to it) ;)

[saxmanjack]

After a few years in guitar-oriented bands, you'll be able to solo ALOT better in B and C# than you can in F and Bb!

[fballatore]

I'm confused. As a beginner, I'm still in the process of learning (and memorizing scales) in all keys. I often read on here other players bemoaning the ordeal of playing in odd or "hard" keys. What's the difference? They're all just a bunch of notes. So if there's an F# or G# or a bunch of sharps or flats in the key you're playing, it's just a different set of fingerings. I don't understand what makes it so hard? Or am I totally missing the concept here?

Just a beginner's thoughts...

Frank

[guidovivaldi]

you are so totaly right my friend.

people get into the habit of C, D, F and such being easy, when really their all the same.

i think playin piano first helped me with this idea, cause I saw that an F# is played the same way as an F. Guitar is kinda the same way, cause its all the same frets (not in a literal manner)

sax players are lazy! i said it!

don't worry though all you desparing saxophonists. i learned 10 major scales in a 3 hour sitting after i first learned the chromatic scale more or less in 2 octaves. the other 2, concert E and concert B i did'nt get into the fingers for a week.

[BlueNote]

Just force yourself to shed things in all 12 keys (scales, patterns, licks, etc). Before long, you will be damn near equally as comfortable in every key if you put your mind to it. It's a workout, but it pays off!

I actually get really bored when I jam with some local buddies and we always end up playing a Bb (C) blues. It's been done to much, and honestly, it is not my favorite key. It's too popular of a key. What is interesting is that I can play better ideas in some keys than others... naturally.

[dpwadw]

...I don't understand what makes it so hard? Or am I totally missing the concept here?...

Frank,

You're right, it should not matter to us. IMO, the most common reason people bemoan certain key sigs is because they learned (myself included) their original licks in F, Bb and the like. Whether it was high school jazz band or Aebersold's, most start with concert Bb blues etc.

In many highs schools today, the problem has at least been acknowledged. They are getting players better acquainted with more robust key signatures at an early age.

The music schools demand more and more, and so the high schools are working to accomodate. I believe that in time young players won't be hamstrung as many of us were.

[garyinla]

I went through all of this myself.

Going from hgih school stuff to playing in rock/blues bands, on alto sax, puts you in those sharp keys.

Its jsut a question of familiarity. If you want to be a good musicain you have to be proficient in all keys.

Someone above said that Eb is rarely played by gutiarists. This isnt true because sometimes blues or rock gutiarists are tuned down 1/2 step (like Stevie Ray Vaughn did) so when they play an E it is a concert Eb. Sometiems they forget to tell you this, too.

Guitarists do the strangest things. Sometimes they bring 2 or 3 guitars tuned different ways. Soemtimes they retune to different tunings between songs, to make things easier for them (or for whatever creative reasons they think they are.)
Of course they use capos too sometimes.

The simplest thing to do as a saxist is to be able to play proficiently in all keys.

If you are playing blues on alto sax, it isnt even true that playing in concert Eb would be the "easiest". If you compare it to E on alto sax (which is concert G) and look at the notes that you actually want to mostly play (ie the "blues scale") you can see that playing in concert G is "easier" than playing in concert Eb.

One thing i find good to do for my own development is switch to/from alto and tenor becasue then i find myself playing more often in diffrent keys on sax. This makes you a better player both in terms of being able to switch alto/tenor/ soprano but also becomign more proficient in all keys.

Anything you learn to play (licks, scales, tunes) is good to learn in all keys.
This is common advice of course.

If you are in grade school or high school and they only tell you to learn your "easy" scales up to 3 sharps and 3 flats they are not doing you any favors.

[Docax]

I was stunned recently, when the guitarists in a new blues group asked what keys saxes were most comfortable with, as they'd be happy to play in those.
Something seemed very reversed! But it shows - it pays to play with good, well rounded guitar players....yes, they exist.

[hgiles]

Look on the bright side, your best substitutions are in the easy keys!!

Tritone sub in C# is D7!

Tritone sub in F# is G7!

Other than that just learn the I and IV chords in those keys and that will be 90% of what you need to know.

[UncleClark]

I"m new to the saxophone but I have played guitar since about 1963. Most chord forms and scales/modes patterns on guitar are moveable so having the guitar transpose to different key SHOULD be a no-brainer.

[Batiste]

What does learn to think in terms of "intervals" mean?

[JL]

I was stunned recently, when the guitarists in a new blues group asked what keys saxes were most comfortable with, as they'd be happy to play in those.
Something seemed very reversed! But it shows - it pays to play with good, well rounded guitar players....yes, they exist.

I've had a similar experience. Sometimes a guitarist will call Bb on purpose, just to please the horn player. But whenever a guitarist asks me what key I prefer, I always tell them whatever key they want is fine by me. The exception is with certain tunes that I know well in a specific key or that I think sound better in a specific key.

I think in many cases those who consider some keys more difficult are thinking in terms of reading music. It probably is a bit more difficult to read a piece of music with lots of flats or sharps. But if you play by ear this is not the case. Unless you haven't learned all your major scales.......then you'll run into trouble either way.

[Saxn]

What does learn to think in terms of "intervals" mean?
Numbers assigned to different scale degrees. In the key of C, it would be:

C=I D=ii E=iii F=IV G=V A=vi B=vii

If you are soloing in a tune that does not require going outside of the key and you are thinking in terms of these interval numbers rather than notes it makes it easier to hear what the line will sound like before you play it, because no matter what key you're in, basically a V sounds like a V... know what I mean?

Greg

[A Greene]

Everyone seems very serious - here's my $.02

1) Get high quality Ear Plugs
2) Get a high quality wireless mic
3) Buy the soundman a beer every moment you can.

You might want to consider learning blues in concert E, A, and B. With these items in mind, you're in good shape.

I've been going this so long that when someone calls a Bb blues - it's a real brain twister - what are we in High School Band?:D

[rabbit]

[QUOTE=garyinla]

Guitarists do the strangest things. Sometimes they bring 2 or 3 guitars tuned different ways. Sometimes they retune to different tunings between songs, to make things easier for them (or for whatever creative reasons they think they are.)
Of course they use capos too sometimes.

garyinla,
Just re-read & caught this. Appreciate the sly humor here. I'm
guilty of all the guitar 'offenses' mentioned except gigging

[JL]

3) Buy the soundman a beer every moment you can.

You might want to consider learning blues in concert E, A, and B. With these items in mind, you're in good shape.D

Yeah, buying that beer for the soundman would be a great idea!....if there IS a soundman.

E, A, and B won't do the trick though (speaking concert keys here). Not even in a typical blues jam. You better add G to that list, and if there are some good players, add F too. Come to think of it, C and D are pretty common, and someone is likely to call Bb. If I'm there you're going to get a call of Ab also. Let's see, what's left? Whatever is left will certainly get called if you don't know it!

[scottysax]

Thers a guitar just released from the company line 6 that has a lever that allows you to re-tune the guitar without actually re-tuning it! Some digital output jibba jabba... How annoying will that be for all of us when all those guitarists start changing tuning every song :S

[rabbit]

scottysax,

Line6 may have a new gizmo out but this was done a
long time ago, in performance, by Joni Mitchell.

Mitchell is known to guitarists for writing many
songs in guitar tunings unique to one song. I've read
of her complaining that she'd virtually lost
her own songs by forgetting the tuning.

It's easy for guitarists/bassists to change keys and
the ones I know expect to play in 'horn keys'
when they see a horn. Your mileage may vary.
Your guys may force you to ask.:)

rabbit

[Jimi Coltrane]

Any guitarist worth his salt should be able to play in any key or atleast improvise in any key, without difficulty. If he/she has to read music, thats different. But switching keys is so much easier on guitars cuz all you do is move up to the necessary frets. And that crap about open scales is stupid, cuz I'm almost positive noone prefers open scales, you might be a little faster, but you sound sloppy in open scales.

[Gregg W. Jackson]

Any guitarist worth his salt should be able to play in any key or atleast improvise in any key, without difficulty. If he/she has to read music, thats different. But switching keys is so much easier on guitars cuz all you do is move up to the necessary frets.

You would think so, wouldn't you, but it's not the case. When guitarists move up the fingerboard they have to know what fret they're at. Most guitarists depend on the position markers to orient themselves. On most guitars, these position markers are at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 12th frets. These positions correspond to the keys of G, A, B, C#, and E. Many guitarists aren't comfortable playing in the "in-between" keys because those keys aren't aligned with the position markers.

[SactoPete]

I've gotten pretty decent at playing in guitar keys, but I'm not sure I completely agree that it's all the same from a technical difficulty standpoint. There's just more fingers moving in some keys than others. It's not that big a deal, but does take some more practice to get them under the fingers just right. I think the easiest key from a fingering standpoint would be Dmajor (and related keys)... probably the least amount of finger movement overall.... the hardest? Bmajor and F# major (and related keys) both have the nasty the G#-to-A#-to-B to coordinate around on your left hand... I'm always fighting it, regardless of how much I shed it, it's just a physical coordination thing....

[ssleb]

After a few years in guitar-oriented bands, you'll be able to solo ALOT better in B and C# than you can in F and Bb!

Sooooo very true. I've been playing in a blues-rock & roll band, and everything is basically in concert B, E, A, and the occasional F. Anyways, now, its very hard for me to go back the highschool concert band keys of Bb, Eb, and Ab. Actually, once you are comfortable with the keys, you'll prefer them in the end, since most guitar music uses either the minor or the blues scale as its basis, so riffs and runs are actually easier and more logical sometimes in these keys.

[JL]

Sooooo very true. I've been playing in a blues-rock & roll band, and everything is basically in concert B, E, A, and the occasional F. Anyways, now, its very hard for me to go back the highschool concert band keys of Bb, Eb, and Ab. Actually, once you are comfortable with the keys, you'll prefer them in the end, since most guitar music uses either the minor or the blues scale as its basis, so riffs and runs are actually easier and more logical sometimes in these keys.

Good point about the minor pentatonic and blues scales, but I'll say this again (at least I think I said it somewhere else!): Once you get to the point where you are playing with good guitar players in good blues or R&B bands, you'll likely find yourself playing in keys like Bb, Ab, and most other keys, as well. These players don't restrict themselves to the "guitar" keys. I will admit there are some very good players who prefer certain keys and tend to stick with them (especially singers), but there are plenty who can play all the keys.

[Dr G]

And that crap about open scales is stupid, cuz I'm almost positive noone prefers open scales, you might be a little faster, but you sound sloppy in open scales.

You don't play very many different styles of music on guitar, do you? Ki ho' alu (Hawaian slack key)? Even a lot of delta blues tunes that were written in drop-D won't work in other keys.

Sounding sloppy when using open strings reflects a lack of damping technique.

[tjontheroad]

I think the whole reason I wanted to learn to play as many instruments as I could was to break out of the "guitar mode". I learned scales like most guitarist, via fretboard patterns. After a while, you forget what notes you're playing. You can play the guitar like your dialing a telephone. Just remember the patterns of the scale intervals and you don't need to know what note it is as long as you're on the right fret position. I still can't find where to put my capo on my sax???

When I started playing the piano a whole new world opened up. I could see and hear the music from the "big picture". Playing sax, for me, is about expressing a voice in a way that can't be done on the guitar.

When playing with another guitarist I try to remember that guitar is the ultimate easy to play instrument. Hence, that's why there's so many out there. A guitarist can get away with knowing less about music and still sound great. The sax, as we know, is all to easy to tell the good from the bad players.

[ssleb]

The sax, as we know, is all to easy to tell the good from the bad players.

If I understood you correctly, you said that sax players cannot be separated into good and bad. I am sorry, but even conceding the fact that the sax is an easier instrument to technically master than probably any other in a concert band context, it requires an extreme amount of awareness while playing. The saxophone, being one of the louder instruments and more limited in range, requires extreme control and creativity to exploit every possible note or tone. This being said, I must say that I know way too many guitarists who don't learn guitar because they like the instrument, but only because it is cheap, portable, and can be an easy-to-learn accompaniment to singing. I must also say that, in terms of tonal quality, the guitar is a very crude instrument, since when a guitarist strums a chord, there is always a lot of noise and rattle. The only time a guitar sounds nice is when an accomplished jazz guitarist plays a solo (such as Wes Montgomery and George Benson) and of course in some contexts, their racket is appropriate. Peace.

[rabbit]

DR. G,

Thank you for your appropriate, informed response.


Jimi Coltrane,

The original 'Jimi' described himself as "basically a blues
guitarist" and reportedly could play the hell out of open
tunings and the old blues that required them.
As you seem to be borrowing the guy's name,
thought you might want to know this.


ssleb,

You seem to be exactly 180 degrees out in your perception
of what tjontheroad said, even after quoting him.

rabbit

[tjontheroad]

If I understood you correctly, you said that sax players cannot be separated into good and bad. I am sorry, but even conceding the fact that the sax is an easier instrument to technically master than probably any other in a concert band context, it requires an extreme amount of awareness while playing. The saxophone, being one of the louder instruments and more limited in range, requires extreme control and creativity to exploit every possible note or tone. This being said, I must say that I know way too many guitarists who don't learn guitar because they like the instrument, but only because it is cheap, portable, and can be an easy-to-learn accompaniment to singing. I must also say that, in terms of tonal quality, the guitar is a very crude instrument, since when a guitarist strums a chord, there is always a lot of noise and rattle. The only time a guitar sounds nice is when an accomplished jazz guitarist plays a solo (such as Wes Montgomery and George Benson) and of course in some contexts, their racket is appropriate. Peace.


ssleb,

You seem to be exactly 180 degrees out in your perception
of tjontheroad said, even after quoting him.

rabbit

Well maybe only 170 degrees off. But who's counting? ;) I do whole heartedly agree that there are some pretty awful guitar players out playing today that rely on stomp box effects and 100 megawatt amps to get "their sound". Anymore, I avoid going to the guitar shops during busy days 'cause I can't stand the noise. ssleb is very right to say many "guitarist" are really just vocalist playing to comp themselves. OTOH, I've never met a singer who said that he/she didn't like playing the guitar. Most would say they wish they could play better.

I can't agree at all saying the guitar is a "very crude instrument". Of course that statement would only come from someone who doesn't play the guitar. You mentioned Wes Montgomery and George Benson who are both perfect examples of refinded, dedicated players. I could name so many more, but that's not the point of my post nor this thread. As wind players, we should be understanding the guitar has it's natural favorite keys and chord voicings. There's a popular basic method of teaching the guitar based on the keys and related major/minor chords of C A G E D. Once this is mastered, you move on to shifting up and down the fretboard and working on the fingerings required. There's something like 18 ways to play a C7 chord. How many ways are there to play any chord on the sax. NONE!

[rabbit]

quoting tjontheroad:
"The sax, as we know, is all too easy to tell the good
from the bad players."

quoting ssleb:
"If I understand you correctly, you said that sax players
cannot be separated into good and bad."

People, please sort this out for me.
I'll try to be quiet now.:)

rabbit

[JL]

quoting tjontheroad:
"The sax, as we know, is all too easy to tell the good
from the bad players."
quoting ssleb:
"If I understand you correctly, you said that sax players
cannot be separated into good and bad."

People, please sort this out for me.
I'll try to be quiet now.:)

rabbit

Hey rabbit, I'll take a wild stab at it. I think the point tjontheroad was making (and he can correct me if I missed his point) is that a saxophone just doesn't sound very good until the player has the tone, intonation, and breath all under control. This doesn't happen overnight. So a bad sax player will sound really bad. Sorry to say that, but it's true. The guitar, on the other hand, can sound ok (not necessarily good, but ok) in the hands of a relative beginner. If the guitar is tuned up properly, anyone can hit a note or chord and it will sound fine. That's not to say the person can really play, but at least it won't sound terrible in terms of tone quality. I think that was the point?

I don't agree that only accomplished jazz guitarists sound good. I love Wes Montgomery and George Benson's playing, but how about BB KIng, T-Bone Walker, Albert Collins, and many, many more (including a lot of players who are relatively unknown)? I could name some jazz guitarists that sound terrible to me, just running a thousand notes up and down the scale, but I won't go there. I'm not a guitar player, but there is nothing wrong with that instrument when it's played well.

[tjontheroad]

JL, you got me perfect. I think rabbit did too. ssleb I'm not sure???

And you're so right about the guitar being versatile through all styles and players. There are great rock, bluegrass, country (and so on) players out there. You can't say the sax sound fits in as many settings as the guitar.

[larry]

I've played with some pretty good jazz guitarists recently and the biggest complaint I have about them is that sometimes they get locked into "finger patterns" and tend to treat flat-9s and sharp-9s almost interchangeably. Sometimes I'll be playing a note that, according the score should right, but sounds awful. I'll stop the rehearsal and ask what chord they're playing and find out that they're bored comping the regular changes and futzing around with [wrong/bad] substitutions.

:angry4:
Just play the freaking changes like they're written when I'm soloing, man! Mess around all you want on your own ride, but support me when I'm out front, dammit! I don't need good notes turned into extra clams on me - I can produce enough clams on my own thank you!

Ok...breathe in....breathe out....relax... all better now...

[ssleb]

Alright guys, after reading tjontheroad's sentence about 20 more times and the following posts, I realized what he meant. Originally, I percieved that what he was that the sax was such an easy instrument that you couldn't tell the good players from the bad. So, sorry about the conflicting perceptions. Going back to the discussion regarding 'favorite keys', I think that all instruments like to play in the keys they learn when they begin; guitarists like E, A, B, and saxophonists like Bb, Eb, F, C (concert keys), just like drummers like....:? :D

[Zoot Horn]

It's not hard to play in C#. You just have to think of it as Db.

Seriously, guitarists want to play songs in E or A. That will put you in C# and F# and awful lot of the time. And G#. Just make sure that every time you practice, you play your scales and other stuff in all keys but especially those keys. Just spend as much time playing around in C# as you do in C. In fact, I often goof around in C# and I never good around in C.

After a few weeks (weeks) it will all sort out for you. It's not a big deal.

[JL]

Just play the freaking changes like they're written when I'm soloing, man! Mess around all you want on your own ride, but support me when I'm out front, dammit! I don't need good notes turned into extra clams on me - I can produce enough clams on my own thank you!.

Oh man, right on! This isn't as much a problem with blues guitarists who generally stick to unaltered dominant chords and 9th chords, but I have run into a couple of guitarists (one in my band for a short time) who can really mess you up when they try to use what they think are "jazz" voicings, altered chords, and all kinds of experimental chords. It wouldn't be an issue if it was worked out ahead of time, but some of these guys will just play this stuff without paying attention to the rest of the band or the melody. I've even run into this on a jam session. Drives me crazy. But then, maybe I drive them crazy when I try something half-baked, lol.