Don't be deluded

[ThomasK]

Moniques are soft metal crap horns that won't last for more than a few weeks of hard playing, unlike real horns, which get better as they age. They might look and feel like "advanced" or "pro" horns, but they are much worse than student horns like Yamaha 23's and Bundy II's. If you are considering to purchase one, don't waste your money.

[SactoPete]

I've never even touched one of these horns out of a fear of exactly what you mention... but I gotta wonder, could you heat-temper the metal to make it harder and more durable? Specifically, I'm guessing the keys are the weak spot, right? So, disassemble the horn, remove the pads and pearls, then heat up the keys and let them cool slowly first (anneal them, basically), then heat them up again, and quench them in cold water. Re-spray with lacquer and re-assemble.

Sure, the labor in this is much more than those horns sell for, but I've been known to throw practicality to the wind just to be different.... might be fun to try... anyone wanna donate me one?

Pete

[RickBusarow]

"Real horns" get better as they age?

[retread]

"Real horns" get better as they age?
Sure. Just ask any mature buck deer.

[RickBusarow]

:lol:

[ThomasK]

"Real horns" get better as they age?

Well, maybe not. But they do last long enough to break them in. That part was mostly rhetoric. There might be something to it though. Why else would Borgani put the brass of their "Vintage" model through an "artificial aging process"?

I remember when Dominic was first starting to sell Moniques on ebay, I bought an alto "Silver Satin" model for $900 or so. I think that he sells these for half as much now, meaning this: he was making quite the profit of of these. Anyhow, the horn was not good enough to be a "backup" horn or whatever I was thinking then. The keys soon began to get bent, the pad to leak, etc. It was then that I realized just how bad all non-Japanese Asian horns really are.

Taiwanesse horns are good for one thing. If your playing is suffering and you need to vent, smash one on the pavement, and then get back into the woodshed with your real horn.

[RickBusarow]

Why else would Borgani put the brass of their "Vintage" model through an "artificial aging process"?To get more of your money - just like the tech who rubs his sweaty hands all over your newly stripped horn, then charges you $100 for "accelerated patina production."

And a lot of people are very happy with their Cannonball saxophones. Those are from Taiwan, aren't they?

[Brendan Muse]

"Real horns" get better as they age?

Well, it's not so much that, but the bad ones generally don't last. :twisted:

[RickBusarow]

They make wonderful lamps, though. ;)

[Pete]

Don't make me find the picture of the Mark VI lamp that they had for sale at cybersax.com a year ago :D.

[Fred]

I do think it is important to mention model designations when praising or trashing a saxophone. Not too many years ago, the Antigua Winds sopranos got bad reviews - now they are highly respected options. The quality coming out of China will continue to improve, and someday the Moniques et.al. might be decent options.

[goodsax]

Good point, Fred. But, there are some Asian-phobes who will never accept that anything good in the way of saxophones can possibly come from Asia, possibly with the exception of Japan, but severe diehards won't even allow that exception.

[ThomasK]

I drive a Toyota and think that Yani's and (maybe) Yamaha's are among the best horns on the planet. Even if some swear by their Kia and Saturn cars or their Cannnonball or Antigua Winds horns, I simply don't buy it. It will be a long time before China produces a truly car than competes in something more than price, and it will be a long time before China / non-Japanese Asia will produce a horn with more to it than flashy / antique lacquer. It is simply too early for me to give up my Japanese, Western European, American bias. I highly doubt that people in the coming generations will be seeking out vintage Cannonball horns. The reason is that they, in some inalterable sense, suck.

[goodsax]

...I highly doubt that people in the coming generations will be seeking out vintage Cannonball horns. The reason is that they, in some inalterable sense, suck.I had a long drawn out response to this, but let me simply say I don't agree.

[TheChristianSax]

Don't make me find the picture of the Mark VI lamp that they had for sale at cybersax.com a year ago.

I saw that. What BLASPHEMY!!!

[ThomasK]

Ah, but it's so fun to blaspheme on occasion.

[kojosanchez]

Moniques are soft metal crap horns that won't last for more than a few weeks of hard playing, unlike real horns, which get better as they age. They might look and feel like "advanced" or "pro" horns, but they are much worse than student horns like Yamaha 23's and Bundy II's. If you are considering to purchase one, don't waste your money.


I shamefully must state that I owned a Monique at one point in time. They may look pretty but they are a horrible horn. They make a beautiful plant pot though. I actually bought one from Dominic's store because I was being cheap and lured in by the lacquer. I purchased a soprano black nickel/gold key horn and played it at my coworkers wedding--my name became "Foghorn" for the next couple of years after that experience.

I actually tried out a DC Pro a couple of months ago and they are truly not worth purchasing. At the time I owned a horn from Saxophone.com, which I tried to see what Dominic would say about it. He actually called the horn "worthless material"...at which time I was pretty annoyed because the DC Pro's where the "Hottest Garbage" I had ever played. They are paper weight and a big waste of money. The Saxophone.com horns are actually very good for the type of money. Even better than some of the horns that actually are popular like Kings, Jupiters, Amati, and others just to name a few.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Good point, Fred. But, there are some Asian-phobes who will never accept that anything good in the way of saxophones can possibly come from Asia, possibly with the exception of Japan, but severe diehards won't even allow that exception.
Goodsax,
What you say is true. They won't be so stiffed necked about this when there aren't any western makers of Saxophones left, and all production has shifted to Asia.......It's coming folks, mark my words.

[Morry]

Taiwanesse horns are good for one thing. If your playing is suffering and you need to vent, smash one on the pavement, and then get back into the woodshed with your real horn.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the broad statement you made is simply not true. Have you played a P. Mauriat? If not, I suggest you give one a try. They approach the quality of the big 4, and cost half as much. All Taiwanese factories are not created equal.

You'd better buy all the overpriced German, French and Japanese horns you want soon, because the Taiwanese and Chinese horns are likely to virtually eliminate the other brands. The Chinese may not be great innovators, but they copy things very well. It may take them a while, but they'll eventually get it done for a fraction of the cost, and other makers will suffer.

We've already seen it with B&S, and Keilwerth may soon follow. Also, the labor costs in France are a huge drain on Selmer, and they are talking of outsourcing their labor to Taiwan.

[stevesklar]

We've already seen it with B&S

B&S is gone ?

[Mark5047]

I know it is Selmer USA - but Selmer is making the LaVoix horns in Taiwan. All my instruments have come from Taiwan - LA Sax, Cannonball, Antigua. No problems with them for what I need. And you sure cant beat the price to performance ratio.
To put it in automobile terms, some big 4 sax-snobs would have you believe if you dont drive a Lamborghini, Ferarri, Porche or Bentley you might as well not drive. All great performing automobiles that will give you tremendous driving pleasure to be sure! But not everyone can afford (or wants to pay for) the best of the best.
Me, I am just glad to be able to play.

[SactoPete]

Ha, Mark... come to think of it, my cars parallel my horns... I have a '65 Plymouth Barracuda and a '67 Plymouth Satellite. Modern cars outperform these in many ways... BUT I was able to pick up each of these for less than the cost of a new "bad" car, let alone a "good" car, and I smile everytime I get behind the wheel.

Similarly, I find myself with a gaggle of Conns and Bueschers... I wouldn't argue that a modern Japanese or Euro horn are better-designed (although someone certainly could), but again, where could I find as good a horn for the price? Consider that you could get a pretty much PERFECT True-tone alto for well under $1k... show me as good a horn at that price from anywhere?

Pete

P.S. I'm not American, so it's not really a patriotic thing... but maybe I'll concede an emotional attachment to the vintage aesthetic. If I'm blinded by it, call me on it. But given that 99.9% of the music I make comes from ME, not the horn, isn't how I feel "behind the wheel" what's important?

[Mark5047]

I hear ya loud and clear, Pete! I love vintage cars myself, and the older I get the more 'nostalgic' I seem to get as well. Currently I drive an older (although not vintage) car that has about 160,000 miles on it that STILL makes me smile when I drive it, so I am gonna hang on to it. I can afford a new "better" car if I want, but I dont want.
My comments were actually directed at the people who make statements like "All asian made horns suck" or something to that nature. True, they are not the best out there, but if your alternative is not to play, my advise is to buy the best horn you can afford, even if it is a 300 dollar used YACASKO (Yet Another Cheap Asian Selmer Knock Off).
Hey, maybe I will get that patented and start a new line of Ebay saxophones - the Yacasko line..... "Pretty, isn't it??? And it even has the SERIAL number. A real Yacasko - not a copy!" lol

[extradarcafe]

I own two Monique Pro Series tenors, one Pro Series alto, and a Pro Series soprano. All are Taiwan-made (ROC, not PRC). I play all of them regularly, and have owned most of them for over five years. Two were about a year old when I bought them used on eBay, the soprano and one of the tenors. I shop regularly on eBay, and I often buy Moniques for doubling players or those who have Selmers and need (or think they need) backup horns. The reasons are simple: first, a lot of jerks bad mouth the brand to drive it down so they can sell their own import brand horns - that makes prices low and thank you very much; second, many of them are laid out identically to Selmer SA horns - and I mean identically rod for rod and post for post; third, most of them must be true in intonation because I haven't hit a bad one yet; fourth, brass is brass and space is space - if you believe differently, listen to Bird or Ornette Coleman a couple times. I could go one, but I know you haven't got all day. And no, I don't sell Moniques or any other saxophones. Take a tip: stop reading crap postings and buy one of the Taiwanese Pro Series altos. They're priced at under $300 used very often.

[jicaino]

morry, chinese and taiwanese manufacturers aren't gonna rule the world of fabrication simply because they can't think, all they can do is produce copies, from absurdely nasty cheap ones to a little better. They need "overpriced" products to copycat them.

Wanna end the crap sax affair? every time you get a student with one of those freshly bought help him getting the money back and return the horn. If you're a tech, dig in the trashcan of your shop and put in working condition every bundy, aristocrat selmer era, vito kenosha, martin indiana, conn shooting stars you can. Then when a parent show up with a crap chinese saxophone explain to him why he has been grossly ripped off and tell him to get a refund. That way they will produce real instruments or sink down. Moniques and loctos and all that crap chinese saxes would not exist if honest people wouldn't be afraid of telling the truth. But heck, it's easier to collect your repair or lesson bill from a kid that has been shafted by a music store rather than to educate about why that isn't a viable option for a beginner's horn.

[jicaino]

hey sacto pete, do you know Doc Dutra from CA? he's a mopar buff too! (so am I)

[BlueTrane2028]

My ROC soprano keeps up with current Selmer production. I have no need to spend more on a soprano. This one already plays in tune with a nice tone.

Granted, soprano isn't my "bread and butter" but I AM picky about my horns. They must be darn near perfect or else it bothers me highly.

[jicaino]

yeah, I have no doubts that the chinese are keeping up with selmer, because, as mentioned early, I don't think that selmer produces all the horns in france anymore.

[patchmo]

Re: Don't be deluded
Methinks this thread has become diluted ! :toothy10: