intonation on Aristocrat

[danmcb]

Just picked up a mid 50's 'crat alto. Condition is good, if a little worn. Sound is superb.

Here's my problem : intonation from A2 up.

It goes sharp. In fact, if I play C#2 (low reg) I'm bang on E concert. C#3 is not far off a semitone sharp. (It is correct when I use a finger to hold down just the C# pad, under the high F). High F is a full semitone sharp.

I don't have this problem on my 6M - same mouthpiece (medium chamber Meyer), same embouchure. I can play within 10 cents across the range on that. And the lower reg is pretty good, tuning-wise.

Any ideas?

[Bootman]

Key height?
What type of pads are in your horn?
Does it still have the snap in pads?

The Conn altos are usually flat in the top end and require some intonation adjustments to be made by the playe to play them in tune. You may be unconsciously doing these adjustments on the Buescher which doesn't need this adjustment.

Try different mpcs and see if the intonation problem disappears. Meyers have never played well for me on the Buescher alto, whereas they play well on Conn altos I have owned. The Runyon Custom, JJ play in tune on my Buescher alto. Lawtons, JJ ESP, Yani metals are other choices that work well. Perhaps a Morgan or a Lamberson would be a good choice too. Some of the Selmer soloists can work well too but this is very dependant upon the mpc.

[Stencilman]

Ah, my favorite little problem. I've encountered this same thing on 3 vintage horns and found that A2 through C#3 intonation can be effected by the following:
Chamber size of the mouthpiece
Top octave vent hole size
Octave pad height
Taper towards the small end of the neck
The neck not being the original that came with the hornLike Bootman said, try a different mouthpiece first. I like the cheap Rico Graftonites since they come in mix and match chamber size and openings. If a local store carries them, you could try a Rico A7, B7 and C7 (large, medium and small chambers) to see if the chamber size makes a difference.

If all mouthpieces have the problem, you could try constricting the octave vent hole just a tad. I used a little bit of blue TickyTac from the office supply in my experiments since it came out pretty easy with a dental pick. Too much constriction will cause A2 to go flat or sound raspy. Octave jumps may not speak very quickly or at all if the hole is too small.

Also, I've tried adding a small cylindrical insert to constrict the end of the neck. This made all notes from A2 on up flatter. You could try this by making a small cylinder with masking tape that fits just snug into the neck opening. Try different amounts of constriction (more tape). The best results I had was to allow the cylinder to protrude about 50mm from the neck, just enough to not interfere with the throat of the mouthpiece.

On the more radical side, I once moved the octave vent in the neck of a Martin alto by about 50mm by drilliing a new hole for the vent and patching the old one. The octave key on the neck had to be changed as well. It was a bit unsightly but fixed my tuning problems. I believe the neck was from a different model horn but it worked perfectly after the modification.

On my Martin soprano, I ended up using a very small amount of JB Weld epoxy to constrict the top octave vent slightly and used a brass insert from the plumbing section of the hardware store to constrict the top of the neck - both very minor changes in diameter. The combination allows me to use my favorite Dukoff mouthpiece that I couldn't use before the mods.

I hope this doesn't sound like voodoo - I've heard of several other players as well as respected technicians performing these modifications. I hope it helps you.

[Paul S]

hi danmcb - nice to see you around :)

Are u still using that HR Bari? I used a Meyer 8M (think they're similar in design) for a while on my 37 Aristocrat. It worked, but had to pull way out to get it in tune - this resulted in uneven tuning across the horn.

I get exceptional tuning from either my HR link or an older large body metal link. Also did well with Morgan L, Vibrator Soundwave. All of these are large chamber....

I battle a bit with a Hr berg and also didn't do great with a metal v16. A metal lawton B and a Guardala studio were fine however. I don't think there's any formula that guarentee's good tuning, but there's no doubt the some pieces, generally those with larger chamber volume, tune better.

best of luck
Paul

[danmcb]

Thanks everyone!

Boot, no no original resos unfortunately. But she still blows like a monster. Maybe one day I'll get one in prime condition.

I did play with key heights a bit .... I don't thank it's that. It's way too drastic.

Silverman, your tips are excellent - kind of stuff that should be archived for reference. I tried some rolled up paper in the end of the neck, very quickly ... it improved things, although it screwed the sound a bit. I'll try some more experiments soon, they may help.

I think it really comes down to the mouthpiece. Shame as I have a great JVW (RIP) Meyer which plays so great.

But maybe what silverman said will help me avoid switching pieces.

Hi Paul ... yup, haven't been round in some while. Don't play too much tenor now, so I'm not using the bari. I'll maybe try a Berg on it some time.

Thanks again, you are great guys!

[Stencilman]

I tried some rolled up paper in the end of the neck, very quickly ... it improved things, although it screwed the sound a bit. I'll try some more experiments soon, they may help.

Yep, you'll have to experiment with the amount of constriction, the length of the tube and the position of it (flush with neck opening or protruding a bit). I think the material makes a difference, too. The brass/copper tubing from the hardware store did very little to the basic sound of my horn compared to a cylinder of rolled up tape which seemed to make it sound brighter and thinner.

Try the octave vent thing, too. I know that some early Conn's have a lower octave tube that enters the bore of the horn at an angle for tuning purposes. You can desolder the vent tube and rotate it to change where the opening of the tube is inside the bore. I've been wanting to try angling the octave vent opening inside the neck slightly and use a rubber gromet to seal it. This would make for a "user tunable" octave vent (hmm, I wonder if there is a patent on that).

Tuning problems are at or near the top of the list of issues to deal with on vintage horns. I love the sound of a "modern" mouthpiece on my ancient Martin stencil. I think it is worth the experimenting with the sax itself instead of having to limit the selection of moutpieces you can use.

BTW, I'm Stencilman not silverman - all the horns I play just happen to be Martin or Buescher stencils.

[Stencilman]

I should probably note that the tube in the neck should only be 7.5mm to 2cm long.

This discussion has got me curious enough to do some more experiments. I'm going to stop by the hardware store tonight and pick up some vinyl tubing that can be easily cut to length. I'm going to use Ticky Tack inside the tube so I can easily change both the diameter and length of the tubing.

Got to remember to help my son make an audition CD first - he's an amazingly talented kid.

[MusicMan]

I had the same intonation problems with my Big B alto using a Selmer scroll shank C* until Steve Goodson turned me onto my Morgan Excalibur mouthpiece. The larger chamber solved all the problems I was having.

[Stencilman]

I did lots of experiments using neck inserts and chamber inserts in the mouthpiece. I'll try not to be too long winded (yeah, right) :-)

On both horns, a Buescher C-soprano and an early Martin Alto Handcraft, placing a very small insert in the neck helped bring the high notes (A2 on up) come down in pitch. The inserts were made from vinyl tubing from the hardware store: 1/2" tubing for the alto and 3/8" for the soprano. The tubing was only 50mm long for the alto and 35mm on the soprano. Longer tubing caused the tone of the sax to change and flattened the top notes too much.

Filling the chamber on the mouthpiece had a similar effect. The large chamber caused me to have to push the mouthpiece in to get the low notes up to pitch but this caused the high notes to go sharp. Making the chamber of the mouthpiece smaller allowed me to pull the mouthpiece out and both the high and low registers were in tune.

So, I'm confused by what I have read so much around here, that you need a large chamber mouthpiece on a vintage horn to get it to play in tune. With the few saxes I have, Martin altos and sopranos and a C-Soprano, the top range of the horn played sharp with my Dukoff's and Lakey's. Adding the neck insert or filling in the chamber made the horns play in tune. I have a couple of "vintage" mouthpieces in a drawer somewhere (Brilhart Ebolin, vintage Martin, etc.) and I'll try those to answer these questions for myself a little better. I'm just not satisfied with the "try another mouthpiece" answer - I want to know what really effects the tuning of the horn.

I hope someone finds my ramblings a little bit interesting.

[Alan K]

Stencilman, very interesting. I have a True-Tone alto, my experience is exactly like you. Large chamber pieces only worsen the sharp high notes. I suggest to try some smaller chamber pieces.
My son has been using C* and Meyer 5 on that True-Tone for two months, even it did take him about one/two weeks to really play perfectly in tune with that setup.
I didn't want to change my mouthpiece, Morgan 2C - large chamber, so I put a piece of small insert into that True-Tone's neck before I play it. Otherwise, the high B and up are not manageable for me.

[shmuelyosef]

I have a Big B alto that I use a JVW Meyer on, and it has the best intonation of any horn I think I have ever played. Spot on while blowing free with no correction from pp --> ff

[Bootman]

A jody Jazz ESP and Standard, Meyer, Custom, Lawton, Ponzol M2 all play great on my Aristocrat, no intonation problems at all. Large Chamber mpcs don't necessarily work well on Buescher saxes. You also have to remember to not adjust the embouchure and throat whilst playing one of these as you must do to play a Selmer in tune. This takes a little getting accustomed too but it isn't difficult to learn.

[Hornlip]

I've been playing a Vandoren Java T75 piece on my tenor 'Crat & the intonation has been perfect.