Wah-wah effect on low notes

[pknight]

I recently bought a YAS-61, and after having it adjusted it plays well, except for one thing:

On notes below F1, when I play softly, I am not able to maintain an even pitch. Rather, the sax sounds like a guitar with a wah-wah pedal, with the pitch rising and falling rhythmically, about 2 or 3 times per second. The effect is worst when playing C1, but happens throughout that vicinity of notes.

If I am playing louder (mf and up) I don't have much problem, and I can hit these notes if they are quarter notes or shorter, but if I have to sustain the tone at lower volume then I sound like a student trying vibrato for the first time.

I don't think that the pitch is jumping anything near a full octave. In fact, the octave mechanism is working fine, with neither octave vent being held partially open. Also, as I mentioned I had the sax adjusted and my tech fixed all of the leaks that were there. I have checked it with my light, and I cannot find any leaking pads.

I have tried a variety of reeds, and while the reeds make a difference in all the usual ways (tone, ease of speaking bell notes, etc.) no reed that I have tried (including drilled reeds) eliminates this effect.

I had a similar issue with another sax, and it turned out in that case to be a leak (or two), but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I would welcome any and all suggestions as to the cause of this problem, as well as what my tech or I might try to remedy it.

Many thanks.

[Gaijin-san]

I hate to say it, but anytime you're talking those low bell notes, I'd say leaks! Second to that COULD be a leak at the neck/cork, but somehow I doubt that.

Also, make sure something psychological isn't happening on these softer notes. The human brain can be strange. Make sure that on the loud low notes, you're not both playing strongly AND closing the pads strongly and then on the soft low notes you're playing softly/gently and closing the pads softly/gently/lightly (ie, not a firm seal). I know this sounds silly, but I mean it when I say the human brain can work that way... softening up everything about the way you're approaching those notes. See if you're not doing that...

*shrug*

[pknight]

I agree that it sounds like a leak, but neither the tech nor I can find anything.

Also, it is not just the bell notes (which I define as C1 and below) but D and E as well.

As far as the psychological angle, while a reasonable suggestion, this is the eighth sax I have owned over 38 years. I doubt that I have developed any new bad habits (I have plenty of old ones) just for this sax.

I can do unwise things, like dropping my jaw, and reduce the effect, but I cannot get rid of it, at least yet.

It is interesting when a piece ends in a long held note that I dimininsh gradually. The tone is steady at first, and then I get this warble at the end. I am not changing my embouchure or grip on the keys during this time. The effect at the end of a song is not always unpleasant, and a listener might even think it was intentional. However, when it happens at other places in a piece, it is just a pain.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will go back and monitor my technique with the softer vs louder tones and make sure that I am indeed being consistent.

[Bill Mecca]

Just a thought, I had a similar problem before a repad, one tech told me to check the upper stack, for leaks, even though it was the low notes that I was having problems with, His words, "that's where leaks live."

the horn actually needed an overhaul, and that's what it got.

maybe you or your tech looked there for leaks, maybe not, I dont know, just a suggestion o another place to look for leaks.

[pknight]

Bill,

Thanks. There were some issues with the upper stack (the G key was not opening far enough, which made A very flat), but I will have to check the work order to see if he did any pad work there.

I too can't help but think that it is a leak somewhere. Normally I have been able to find them myself, but this one has be puzzled.

[singlereed]

Two things I have found can cure this - 1) mouthpiece not far on enough (worth a try) or 2) drop your mouthpiece cover or a cork down the bell. If either of those do it, then maybe its a kind of acoustic problem rather than a leak and neither will cost anything to try.

I agree there could be leak - remember the horn may not show any leaks laying down on a bench, but if you have a weak spring or sluggish linkage, you may have a pad that is failing to close properly when playing - and of course in the few seconds between stopping playing and sticking a leak light down it, the pad settles. You can also get pads that oscillate open and closed when playing, especially with low notes, again you would'nt see it on a bench. You can try to get a willing helper to press pads closed while you are playing, or try to identify the problem if it occurs when moving between particular notes. The other obvious leaks are a loose neck or mouthpiece, or the joints at the bow, but your tech would be aware of that possibility.

[pknight]

singlereed,

Thanks for several good ideas. I will try the cork/mouthpiece cover and see what happens. I will also get my wife or son to press on the pads while I play.

I doubt that there is a leak at the mouthpiece, as I had the neck cork replaced when I had it serviced. I am also skeptical of a leak at the other end of the neck, but it is a possibility, I guess.

What got my attention the most was when you mentioned the bow joints. At some point in time this sax had the bell and bow relacquered, but not the body and neck. This means that the body has been separated from the bow. Perhaps there is a leak at that location.

Do you think that it would be possible to check for such a leak (and at the neck as well) by temporarily putting a removable caulk of some kind, perhaps silicone, around the joint on the outside of the sax? Do you, or anyone else, have a suggestion for a material to use for this? I don't want to damage the finish, and I suspect that silicone would work.

Thanks again.

[Lyle]

Weak springs? On those keys normally closed. Perhaps the pad seals enough so a leak is not detected with light but blowing slightly lifts pad.

Don't know if that could happen but it appears you have a good musical mystery.

[pknight]

Lyle,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will be able to test that theory when I get somebody to press the keys shut while I play.

I'm hoping to find a simple leak, but time will tell.

[singlereed]

PKnight I am afraid I am not a technician so I don't know how you check or fix the bow joint, but I have been told it can be a source of leaks - mentioned either by one of the technicians I've used or else I've seen it mentioned here, can't remember. Certainly as you believe it has been disassembled then it has to be worth a look. Please let us know what transpires.

[RheaTrots]

I am noticing the exact same problems on my new YAS875. I dont know what to do about it. I did notice that if I pressed on teh low C# pad and made it seal tighter, the low notes appeared to come out better. My main note problems are D and C. B and C# work better.

[pknight]

RheaTrots:

I have tried having someone press on the pads, and it hasn't made any difference. However, your experience suggests that your difficulties stem from a leak, and I still suspect that a leak will turn out to be the cause of my problems too.

I doubt that this is a Yamaha-specific problem, or we would have heard about it before. Also, I own, or have owned, 5 Yamaha or Yamaha-made (Vito) saxophones, and this is the first one that has done this.

The tone on this sax is so nice that I am determined to fix this problem eventually.

[primetime]

I don't know about the rest of you, but i had this problem for a while, and my teacher told me to put more air through the horn, but play at the same volume. Fixed the problem right up, and helped my tone, too! Maybe it'll work, one can only hope.

P. T 8)

[Subtone Sam]

Check for leaks very carefully on D,low C,low B and low Bb pads.Check the pads from ALL angles.

[Sigmund451]

I had a warbeling C on my Tenor and it was fixed in part with a leak repair and seating. It still did it sometimes and I played with a couple of different mouthpieces and those that had less severe baffles and allowed more air into the horn seemed to fix the problem...if I get lazy with my diaphram I find that it happens at times. Dunno, Ive begun to find many problems arent with the horns but with the mouthpiece/reed horn combo....and of course me :oops:

[magicpsn01]

I just discovered the sax forum…and thought that I would add some thoughts to the warble discussion.

A couple of weeks ago I took my daughter up to band camp…yes up to…it was in the hills near Lake Tahoe at approximately 8,000 feet elevation. When we got there she registered and had about a half hour to prepare for auditions. When she took her horn out it had a very distinct warble on low D. I tried her sax too, and yes it did it for me too.

The week prior we spent a lot of time selecting the best reeds and there was no warble. I also had preformed a light leak test and know that everything was fine with the sax (again this was before leaving, at home at near sea level…I didn’t take my light there, so I don’t know if anything changed. I did check keys for leaks by pressing the pads tightly closed while she played, but could not make any difference) .

The sax remained like that the whole time that she had it up there. I did notice that if there was more air moving through it helped some, but it still warbled. I’m not sure if the atmospheric pressure had any effect on the instrument, or since we were up in elevation and not use to it, it made harder to play (lack of oxygen), just in walking around you would get winded a lot more easily.

When we got back home, it played fine. So, I guess what I’m saying is…changes can occur…not sure what caused it, I wish I did…Could it have been the elevation change? Could it have been the thinner air? Has other people noticed a change in there instrument as they traveled?

I just wanted to add what happened to me…maybe it will help someone figure out what causes this warble.

[magicpsn01]

Oh I forgot to mention that this was on an alto. Also, when I picked her up I heard a lot of people talking about how their instruments weren’t playing right…could this be coincidental?

[JL]

Air support. If it's not a mechanical problem (leaks), then I think primetime is on the right track. Even when playing soft, the low notes require a lot of air support. This is hard to explain, but you need your throat wide open with lots of air pushing through the horn, regardless of volume. This helped me solve most problems with low notes on the tenor.

[Paul Coats]

magicpsn01: As far as the elevation change, could have been, but anytime I travel to a different climate, I notice my horn has leaks. I bring a leak light, repair kit, including a torch.

A warble on a low note is from a leak. Sure, there were some Conns from the 1940's-50's with bad bows that the cork trick would fix, but for the most part, a low note warble is from a leak. And it can be much farther up the horn.