The truth about intonation?

[MikeS]

I stumbled across an interesting article on intonation: http://www.lightandmatter.com/music/saxtuning.html
It makes an interesting point. How close to dead nuts on do you really have to be to be perceived as playing in tune?

[Quijote]

Check this:

http://home1.gte.net/wwalker/tuning.htm

:roll:

[max]

Even though they're all "scientific-ish" and impressive-looking, these pages are pretty useless.

For one, there are so many variables that affect intonation, simple charts like these really have no meaning.

For another, hitting "0" on your tuner does not mean you will be in tune!

for more info, see the discussion at:
http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=2571
(particularly the posts by scale_master, bootman, and me)

[Ritchie]

The curve in the lightandmatter article quite obviously shows there is a systematic intonation error, since the intonation becomes flatter with a shorter air column. The author tunes to a D, so the intonation is correct for notes played with a long air column, becomes worse the shorter the air column becomes, is back to normal for d2, and really flat in the palm key range. He even tells us the mouthpiece almost fell off the neck, so what kind of scale does he expect for a set up like this? Having to pull out the mouthpiece so far can have several reasons, three come to my mind.

1) He plays a high pitch horn. High pitch horns are designed to play to a tuning standard of A = 450 Hz, so bringing it down to the modern standard of A = 440 Hz will require to pull out the mouthpiece too far. This is the reason why you should not buy a high pitch horn if you want to play with others!

2) The mouthpiece has a far too small chamber or a far too high baffle. The saxophone is designed for a mouthpiece volume equal to the volume of the "missing cone" of the body. If the chamber volume is to small, you have too pull out the mouthpiece, which will affect the notes played with a short air column more than those played with a long air column.

3) The mouthpiece has a tip opening which is too wide. The player compensates by biting or using a too tight embouchure, which pushes the reed to the facing curve to form a smaller effective tip opening. The resulting higher pitch is compensated by pulling out the mouthpiece.

The correctness of intonation cannot only be determined by beats of two long tones, why the author claims that 30 cents are acceptable in performance, but also in the playing of intervals. The more ear training you do, the more discriminating your verdict will become whether a certain intervall is played too short or too long.

Interesting that the conclusion in the wwade article should be that all mouthpieces have faulty intonation, even the ones by the late Jon VanWie and Ralph Morgan. Makes me doubt the method...

Max is right, the charts are quite useless, but we are talking about much greater errors than those which result from natural vs. tempered tunings and different intonations depending on harmonic functions. After all the intonation is the responsibility of the player, not of the instrument, like when playing a fretless string instrument. A wrong setup can make the goal of a good intonation a nightmare, but we should not use it as an excuse.

[frankbiff]

I don't have the books, but as I recall from physics the note must play for a minimum length of time in order to identify its frequency (pitch) within a certan accuracy. This time depends on the pitch itself. Low notes require more time. It's acctualy how many cycles are necessary to identify the frequency. The bottom line, the intonation of very short notes does not matter that much. It's the longer notes that matter most.

[Balladeer]

I am very sensitive to being out of tune. I have to be able to play sufficiently intune not to wince or hold back because of being out of tune with others. I don't know whether that is dead-on or just close.

[Razzy]

Doesn't really matter; the pitch will bend to match the other players with enough experience. Yes, you should tune to a relative pitch that brings all of your horns in the closest possible intonation, but then it's all up to the players and their own adjustments. Most of these are subconscious, so what seems like a great task may really just be a matter of time and practice.

I find that practicing long tones to an electronic keyboard every day lets me know how off certain pitches are on my horn, and lately I have been coming closer into pitch on these notes. It's not because I moved the mouthpiece or anything; the mouthpiece hasn't moved at all. It's that I am able to hear better now and to adjust with my lips/voicing/etc. to bring the pitch closer to spot-on.

The worst thing for a player is to play in a chamber ensemble of combo of some sort with players with very bad pitch. Then you will ALWAYS sound off even though you are probably closer to pitch than anyone else in the ensemble. You just have to let those players know that they must practice their long tones and practice with a piano or something such as you have, and their intonation will automatically improve. Otherwise, your pitch will suffer and YOU will be that out of tune player in an ensemble with more experienced players...

[paulwl]

You just have to let those players know that they must practice their long tones and practice with a piano or something such as you have, and their intonation will automatically improve.
But if you value being in the group at all, or value their friendship, you have to help them.

Saying "you're not in tune - you need to practice with a piano" to the rest of the group is talking down to them. No matter whether it's true or not. You just don't want to put yourself in that position with your peers.

Far better to put it this way: "We (the group) are not in tune. Here's what we should do, and our tuning will improve."

[Anonymous]

But then, aren't you talking down to those who are NOT out of tune?

I think alienating your good players is probably worse for the band than embarrasing the bad ones into action!

I got that from either "How to Win Friend and Influence People" or "Mein Kampf" I forget which!

[Razzy]

I fully agree. I always give my fellow bandmates things to practice, and help them out when they ask, or when I think they need it! Advice is useless unless it can be acted upon, after all :wink:

[noelpaz]

About intonation, I tune my horn a bit flat and usually I lay in tune. I have good ears and have good interval skills. I played a contrabass before playing the sax and I think that background has really helped me. I think instead of using the tuner while playing develop your interval recognition skills and it you can hear an interval in your head, try that on the horn and after a while your intonation will improve.

I also find to just stick with one or 2 setups especially mouthpieces. I am just playing 2 STM links and have been selling my mouthpieces except for the lakey which I use for electric gigs.

The Larry teal book about tounging, long tones and all those exercises also helps.

Thanks

[Ritchie]

If you tune the cold horn, it will become sharper after some playing because you heat up the air inside the sax. So if you tune flat for the right amount, after some time you may hit just the correct pitch.

Good ears are essential, because no matter how accurately you tune, the pitch is not set. I think of the sax as a "fretless" instrument in this regard.

[mark_m]

In reference to the minimum number of cycles to identify a pitch, I don't have the number handy although I believe I do have the book, and if I have the memory I'll look it up.

I do know that a common practice in jazz organ is to tap a low pedal note along with a left hand bass line. The brevity of the tap is such that the frequency is not identified, and it becomes a part of the bass note being played, as an accent.

In any case, I'd bet that anything above bass notes could be identified in a pretty small interval of time. Hopefully, those who have learned to play blazingly quick passages have also learned to play in tune already!

(myself not being in that category)

[Paul Coats]

The guy in the lightandmatter article could stand some serious lessons.

Clue, the mouthpiece is falling off the end of the neck, and the palm key notes are way flat... well, DUH!

He has a Berg "jazz oriented" mouthpiece.

And a worn out reed.

Well, does anyone want to raise their hand and explain to the group what this guy is doing wrong?

Ignore this article, please.

Wade Walker's... OK, now HERE is something we can sink our teeth into.

From Wade's charts, and these are general intonation tendencies of all saxes... look at C#2, open C#. This is a flat note on alto because usually you tune the alto's G to concert Bb.

Tenors usually have a pretty good C#, because they tune their C to concert Bb... a much "shorter" note on the horn.

A small amount of mouthpiece movement that will greatly affect the C and C# will hardly change D1 or D2. To tune the G on the alto, concert Bb, the mouthpiece has to be moved a certain amount, and any error is greatly amplified on the C#.

It would actually be better to tune the Altos' B concert D, or its C to concert Eb. The rest of the notes would fall pretty close.

This would make the palm key notes, on his charts, even sharper. But these notes can be brought down in pitch by adjusting the thickness of the cork bumpers on those keys, reducing the pad openings.

The whole horn is brought into better average intonation.

Or I could be wrong.

[Sue Terry]

The necessity of working with a tuner goes without saying. That said, let's also remember that pitch is a relationship (with other pitches.) Relationships change depending on context. For example, an E and a G have a certain relationship, and a 'correct' intonation, in a C major triad. In an F major 9 chord those same notes have a completely different relationship, and a different intonation to go with it. I'd like to recommend a great book on the history of tuning. It's called "Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff, published by Knopf. A real eye (and ear) opener. Thank God my horn was tuned at the factory :)

[Subtone Sam]

In my experience,working with a tuner is a good start but I wouldn't concentrate on that too much since it has so little to do with real life situations,performing that is.

The most important thing is to trust and develop your ear.When you play on a gig,there are couple of aspects to consider:

firstly,you play with other people so the most important thing is to play in tune with the rest of the band,especially with other horn players.I know some players,especially in the classical field who have tuners with clip-on mics on their horns all the time and I don't see the point;they focus on tuner when they should listen to the rest of the band and try to blend in.

Secondly,gig/performance situation means,in 99,9% cases,that you can't hear yourself the same way as when you are practising alone.Other instruments,monitors (or lack of them) and noises from the audience will make it much more difficult to hear your pitch properly.

My advice is to use common sense with playing in tune: if it sounds right (or even close),it is in tune enough.Trust your ears.

[Scottias4]

I completley agree with Paul and Ritchie. The guy who wrote this article seems to assume that if your embochure is contant than your pitch should be constant, and this couldn't be further from the truth.

I notice when I play D1, A1, and D2 with the same embochure. the pitches are way uneven if the mouthpiece is too far in or too far out. When I have it to far out, D1 and D2 are much less flat than A1. When its to far in, D1 and A1 are much less sharp than than D2. But when i have it in just the right amount, their all right on.(when i didn't have this knoledge earlier, i was upset because i thought my brand new sax was out of tune :roll: )

I also echo Sue's comments on how intonation is mean(human ear) not just(eletric tuner). It all has to do with the golden ratio being in nature. Obviously the person who wrote this article didn't know much about science as well as music.