is doubling on other saxes good for you ?

[pepper]

often wondered wether playing different saxes is good for your playing or, unless your incredibly dedicated, can mean you end up taking your eye off the ball for your chosen horn.

i play tenor and am thinking maybe of giving the soprano a go. i know coltrane said that having played soprano made him change his approach to the tenor, now i may be many things but when it comes to playing jazz i'm certainly no john coltrane.

so basically do you think a kind of vaguely competent musican such as myself would benefit taking up a second horn, or do you think it might lead to spreading yourself too thin.

[Gandalfe]

I think this is an excellent question that seems to come up from time to time. As an intermediate player, I play soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone because it gets me more gigs. And playing each instrument does something good for the full range of saxes. For example, the bari player just has to be so in touch with the rhythm section, spot on for finding the beat. The soprano player has to work intonation all the time--every note will be heard because of the high frequency thang. The tenor has so many solos and the alto, especially lead alto sets the style, tone, and pace for the whole section.

As a long-time alto player, picking up bari sax was easy. Learning to play the tenor sax however has been a challenge and I can't really tell why. I make noises about Bb not being my favorite voicing, but it could be I just need to spend more time with the tenor. And the soprano, can I just tell you it is the hardest instrument I have ever tried to learn to play. I note that a lot of sax players buy a soprano and then within a year or so put it up for sale--it's that hard to master.

For the most part I use the same mouthpieces that work for me across the range of saxes. I like plubber ('taint just rubber) Otto Link pieces in a size 5 or 6 opening. And I like the metal Otto Link for the bari because I don't have to work as hard to get the volume I want in the jazz band. For the soprano sax I tried so many mouthpieces before I found one that I liked. Dave Kessler recommend the Morgon Protone and man was he right. So if you have a favorite mouthpiece, you might want to try it on your new instrument.

Reed strengths have remained the same. But while a bari sax reed always seems to work out of the box and last a long time, good alto reeds are much harder to find and they don't last as long.

Practicing time doesn't really change. I practice the instrument I am to perform with in the precious little time that I have to invest. So if I'm playing bari sax for the jazz band, I practice on that for the next gig.

[saxfreak]

There is a long debate about whether it's best to focus on only one instrument or branch out and double on various woodwinds, and this could also be applied to saxes, I suppose. If you are a total purist, the reasoning to concentrate on one woodwind instrument only (just oboe, flute, clarinet, sax, etc,) is that you will develop that instrument's skills to the maximum limit. This might be necessary for certain situations, like symphony orchestra playing, or touring soloist. However, you become limited to that instrument. The doubler becomes more versatile, and able to get certain types of playing opportunities that would be otherwise unavailable.
I fell into the doubling world rather by accident and ended up with a degree in woodwind instrument performance in college. I found that the new instruments were interesting to pick up and learn. There is a lot of carry-over, but each one is also unique. I found that I concentrated a lot on the new instrument because of the novelty. One surprise was that some of the skills that are developed on the new instrument can carry over to benefit the original instruments. When I picked up playing recorder (at about age 45 instead of 2nd grade like everyone else) I found that the complicated fingering combinations made the top octave on the flute seem a lot easier than before.
As respects playing all of the saxes, you would become more versatile and valuable to have all of the saxes available. It depends somewhat on what you want to do musically. One thing to remember is to have a lot of patience. Each of the saxes has its own quirks, and they all take a little different approach. You might find that if you explore another one of the sax family, it might take a lot of your attention and be a lot of fun to learn. When you go back to your original sax you'll probably find that you haven't lost anything on that sax but may have added something new from the other one, particularly regarding air stream or embouchure issues.

[Morry]

I play them all (SATB, that is) because I enjoy it. They each allow me to express a different voice. I would probably be a better player on alto or tenor, if I stuck to just it though. However, if I had it to do over again, I would have specialized in bari when I first played it my Freshman year of HS.

[Randall]

I think it is the best thing to do as a player.
The only pitfall is to not do all 4 with a fairly equal measure.

There was a point about 4 years ago when I didn't play tenor at all for close to 8 months due to all the band/work calling for alto. Admittedly, it was an odd thing to not play tenor for such a long time, but I noticed that when I finally picked up my tenor again I had some serious problems. I had lost my sound! :dazed:

I am fortunate that I now have regular bands that I play all 4 horns in.

[Keith Ridenhour]

I think what you focus on colors all the other horns. I played Bari and Sop back in college but I was 95% alto and it has taken alot of time and focus to get my tenor tone that I have now which I'm still not wild about. I can practice my alto and get a much better tone quicker. So I spend 95% of my time on tenor and just enough alto to not embarass myself giving a lesson. And as Randell said If I just play alto for a week or so my tenor tone suffers in a hurry. I don't seem to have the reserve of talent like others who never have to practice. If I don't play for a couple of days my skill level goes south in a hurry. Also, I can think of a local tenor player who is thought of as one of the best around but his tenor sound is thin compared to what I like because he spent years on alto and does alot of classical soprano work all of which effects his tone. K

[madgrocer]

I agree 100% with you guys on losing the sound on a particular horn if you don't keep at it.
I have to practice Tenor 10x more than Alto to maintain a barely decent sound. Tenor playing I believe helps my Alto sound. I usually sound better on the Alto after blowin Tenor for about an hour. But if I go the other way around.. the Tenor really suffers. Soprano.. doesn't matter, I can leave it in the case for a month, take it out.. and within a 5 minute warmup have the sound I want there.

[Greyduster]

Tenor player for four years. Yesterday I bought a second hand sop. I've been looking for one for about a year, on and off and finally found one I like. Strangely the decision was made at this time because I will probably be trvelling to and from Spain quite a lot in the future and I wanted a sax that I could check as hand luggage. I'm still a bit nervous about checking my Yani in the hold even though I have a hiscox flight case + it takes up a good wedge of the 20Kg weight allowance.

I have been playing it for just over 24 hours and I love it, but was amazed at how different it was from the tenor. Everyone says the intonation can be a problem with sops so I'll have to watch that but I just love the sound of it.

Should I be doubling on the sop.

Of course I should, I want to play it. I want to play like Sidney Bechet or like Coltrane on Favourite Things. How can I achieve that If I don't have a sop.

Now I must stop rabbitting on and go and practise. I'm 53 for God's sake. Time is running out.

[Razzy]

I've always found that somebody's sound on any given horn is reflected in how much they practice that specific horn. Tone suffers for me when I switch from soprano sax or clarinet to anything else, but never between any other horns (I think the same would probably happen on oboe: having to expel stale air is not a problem I encounter on anything else, so switching from that to a horn that pretty much takes all your air and requires a loosened embouchure is a tough thing to do). Still, I've heard guys who have practiced such switches (clarinet to flute, for example) and sound great on the second horn, simply because they've practiced doing that and going for the tone right off the bat.

Keeping up my long tones (including overtones and fundamentals) and technique on each horn every day tends to keep the sound and comfort levels intact. Makes sense to me... as long as you keep progress in mind and have worked your butt off at some point for over a year on that specific instrument, you can always get it back. By working your butt off I mean about 2 to 4 hours a day spent on that instrument alone. It's probably different for double reeds for all I know, but I guess I'll find out this summer!

[resom7fk]

i learned alto after playing clarinet for four years, and i just start playing a bari about 2 months ago. i have to say my situation is unique, because i started on the clarinet b/c it was cheaper, so when i learn the alto i didnt play clarinet as much. But i definatly have to say that playing the bari has improved my overall playing. mainly because of the air support that the bari requires to play ff. this has further developed my air support and now i can carry it back to the other horns.

[shmuelyosef]

I, too, just like playing all the horns. I have the good fortune to play in a big band, and there are two of us who swap the bari seat from time to time. There is an alto player who likes to swap in on tenor. We play lots of charts where tenor players double soprano and alto players double flute, so I get to work my chops regularly. I also play bari and tenor in a funk band so the big horn think is always going...these last few years have been great for this reason.

[Bill Bauer]

I think doubling in general makes you better technically and artistically. Especially, If you read or ad lib SACmelTB and switch to different horns for coloration on various tunes you can't fall asleep because you must constantly be tracking key signatures and chords. The Bob Seger tune Down on Main Street wouldn't sound the same on a tenor. The ride in Baker Street is definitely for the alto. I gig about twice a week in different bands and I try to be ready for whatever they throw at me.

[Vortex]

I think we can pretty much all agree that the different voices in the saxophone family are all instruments unto themselves. Similarities exist, but great differences as well. Adolphe Sax believed that performers should learn to play several, if not all, members of the saxophone family (back then he had about 15!!) IMHO if you can keep your embouchures together for each, and remember the right approaches to each range, it's just fine - of course we all tend to migrate towards one horn that becomes our 'home', the first one that comes to mind when we think of a saxophone.

There are some peculiarites I've noticed with other woodwinds, such as that alto sax seems to be bad for clarinet playing - the embouchures for each are so different that it's easy to get mixed up and it takes work to straighten yourself out evenly on them. Clarinet playing doesn't seem too bad for alto sax, except that you'll sound like a clarinetist on alto, know what I mean?

I played guitar for a long time before I started alto sax, and a lot of stuff I learned playing alto transferred nicely to guitar. Likewise, guitar has given me a new outlook on how I play ALL other instruments. Electric bass was a double I took from the guitar, and I felt that it was 100% good for me. On bass you have fewer strings to work with, no whammy bar, and a smaller practical range, so it forces you to become more creative with what you have - I really enjoyed this and got pretty complex with harmonics, slap techniques, etc. There wasn't much physical interference because on guitar one frets with their fingertips, while on bass it's more the pads of your fingers. However, that meant on clarinet I now have to press pretty hard with my fingers so that the callouses really cover the holes up.

As long as your tonal and stylistic concepts remain clear, and your technique is refined for each instrument, I think doubling can only help your playing.

[Chu-Jerry]

It seems to me that one's pitch memory gets confused by switching to saxes in different keys. For example going from alto keyed in Eb to Sop in Bb. Both instruments share the same fingerings so my mind has trouble remembering a given pitch associated to a given fingering. It's not a problem when reading just when trying to play something by ear.

[CMelodyMan]

I think it is, at least for me. It makes me a lot more versatile, and it strengthens my embouchere and makes it unique to where I have a good embourchere for alto, tenor, and bari, instead of having a good embouchere on just one. BTW, I play alto, bari, and c melody. (I also play tenor some times in jazz bands)

[SanDiegoSaxMan]

I play by ear so this is my view. I have been playing alto for many years and thought I would try a Tenor so I rented one to see if I would like it before i jumped in and bought one. It was so strange to play a note and a different sound would come out. With my alto If I hear a song I can tell which key to play in, then when I tried the tenor it was so different. The great part is after a few minutes you start to feel the notes and your mind adjusts to the horns keys and your in there. When I go back to the Alto its no problem. I did notice like "madgrocer" said that its easier to play my alto after playing my Tenor. The tenor helped me become more expressive on my Alto because IM trying to sound as sexy on my alto as the tenor sounds. One other thing I noticed is that it takes less effort to play a Tenor. I don't know if its the specific horns IM playing or if its just a fact, but I had to learn to play softer on the Tenor.

[nealondnealond]

I am an alto player and took up tenor as i need to get a position in an awsome band. i found that tenor and alto are almost interily different instruments to each other! just like flute and clarinet. besides da fingerings is hard to get a steady sound on 1 if ur concentrain more on the otherr 1 and vice versa. its a fickled thing!

[Brendan Muse]

I just borrowed a tenor from school because I need to get a decent sound on it before going off to college where my choices will be alto AND bari or tenor AND bari. As of right now, since I haven't gotten the chance to sit down and seriously pick out a setup, I'm using an old Bundy piece with whatever tenor and bari reeds I can scrounge up around my house.

I spent an hour playing on it, and when I picked up my bari, I heard a DISTINCT improvement in my sound. :D

[altosaxguy1]

i play alto, bari, and soprano and playing bari helped out my lung support a lot. and other things like that

[Tom Goodrick]

One obvious aspect here is the amount of time you have to spend on practicing. Back when I was working a demanding day job (engineering) and playing nights in a rehearsal band and weekends in a dance band and an occasional concert band, I barely had time to toot the horns I was working with. To take up a new horn is out of the question in such a condition.

But recently I have been retired from engineering and from performance music (though that may change) and have devoted the time needed to bring my tenor playing up to the level of competancy of my trombone and trumpet (first horns played professionally starting 40+ years ago). Recently I got into the soprano sax and that has been absolutely great. Anyone who has the slightest interest and curiousity about it should try it - IF you have the time.

As for the topic here, I have found the soprano has helped me with my tenor and with my other horns, particularly the trombone. With the sop, you must develop strength in the muscles surrounding the mouth, improving your ability to squeeze inward toward the center of the mouthpiece - just your lips, not any force from teeth. This has helped me control the low notes on the tenor and the high notes on the trombone where the same muscles can the mouthpiece off the teeth while manipulating the buzz very finely to articulate between the high notes.

I certainly have not seen any negative effects. I suppose if a person is just beginning his or her musical experience, that would be a different story. One instrument should be played for several years before trying another. For me that was the trombone. The trumpet came 5 years later and the tenor sax about 15 years after that. But the tenor was a part-time toy for a few decades. The sop came 6 months ago.

[T_J_h90000]

Being a student in a collegite music setting i Play Alto, Tenor and Bari on a daily basic, I take private lessons on alto, i am in a Touring jazz/funk/rock(http://www.frontstreetmusic.us) ensemble on tenor, and i play Bari in concert band. I usually play all three every day, weather it is rehersing or practicing. At first it was hard to go from horn to horn to horn, But after a week or two of adjusting to the different horns on a daily basis i don't look at them as being "different" but as ok, for this horn I do this, this, and this for the tone I want for lessons, band, etc... I believe in the end is you have to adjust and not think about adjusting to the horn just naturaly going to the horn and playing it.

[Alun Bliss]

Too inexperienced to know what is "good" for me, but I do really enjoy playing different saxes. I jave found that my tone is completely different for each (beyond obvious differences..) I have a softish tone on alto and a rougher edge when playing tenor. I feel this is the way I approach the instruments rather than the set ups. Have just acquired a soprano and will wait to see what practice brings to the tone.
Perhaps we all "hear" different instruments in our own way, influenced by the players we admire...and could this help to shape different tones when we move from one instrument to another??

[RCNELSON]

I play only alto and tenor, with some clarinet and flute. I have always thought that playing more than one sax is good. I have played many more hours of alto than tenor, but the more tenor I play, the more comfortable the alto is.:)

[Grumps]

I'm playing with an R&B group where in most songs, I'm the only sax player. It's nice to be able to play tenor, alto and bari to add more variety to the mix.

[jaysne]

Yes it is good for you--you'll make more money that way.

[Scott Ramminger]

I have an alto. But I actively play tenor and bari.

I am switching back and forth between bari and tenor with the rockers I am playing with. For me, to actively (like between songs) and effectively switch, I have to practice switching.

I only actively practice tenor and bari. I have between and hour and an hour-and-a-half to practice per day, so for now have limited myself to practicing tenor and bari. I generally play my long tones and octave excercises on the tenor as it is my main horn. Then I frequently switch to the bari to practice scales. The bari I have has clunky action. My logic is that if I can run the scales on that big clunky beast, playing them on the more manageable action of the tenor should feel like a piece of cake. Then I switch around between the horns for the rest of my practice time.

Sometimes I switch it up and play long tones on bari, scales on tenor, etc.

The benefits:

1) I think playing the bari has improved my dexterity on tenor.

2) Switching between Eb and Bb horns forces me to work in different keys. Of course, everyone has heard the virtures of learning tunes in all of the keys. But with limited time, it is also easy not do that. If you switch around, you at least get out get a couple of different keys going on. One time I might play bari on Tune A, the next time I might play tenor. That forces you to think a bit.

3) Actively switching horns forces me to pay attention to basics (embrochure, tone production, etc.).

4) A songwriter/guitarist I like was asked why he bought so many guitars. His response: "There are usually a couple of songs in each guitar." Translation: For some reason, picking up a new instrument jars him out of his comfort zone and makes him come up with something new. I think switching saxes bring has a similar impact on my playing.

The most important benefit: I like it. I like the sound of both horns. I like the way the feel. And that is why I play.


Scott

[Alun Bliss]

Having recently added a Soprano to my "stable", I have a few additional thoughts on this. I really enjoy the differences in feel that each sax has. I play and practice for fun rather than profit, so I tend to pick up the sax that best suits the mood I am in at the time. When I have more than an hour to spend playing, I tend to pick up the tenor; when I only have time for a short burst, it will be the alto.
To my surprise (I expected it to be much less fun and more hard work) I find the soprano is getting my attention at the end of the day - when I really want to play and relax. I play along to Bechet and love it. For some reason (and it may be my listening tastes....) I find I am much more able to hear and then play the notes with the soprano. Does anyone else find that one sax is easier for them to play by ear than the others? Any ideas why this might be?

Is multi saxing good for you? Playing the soprano certainly seems to be good for me. I am listening to myself more accutely.

[fenix424]

I play Tenor in Jazz Band, Bari in Concert Band and 4tet, and Alto in my private lessons. IMO they all help each other, My Tenor playing has never been better since i picked up Bari... Hell, everything hasnt been better since i played Bari! :P

[Pinnman]

A very interesting and informative discussion. However, it does concentrate largely - albeit not exclusively - on the positives of doubling, but there are some points IMO to consider from a different angle.

Good for you or not, there are certainly times when you have to play more than one instrument, particularly in a big band or pit orchestra for a show. The bari player needs an alto, the tenor player a clarinet and flute (thankfully not too often as I play neither) and the lead alto a soprano and clarinet.

Secondly, I think it necessary to be quite clear which instrument is the main one and which are there just for fun and/or to derive the many benefits other posters have identified. Being a jack of all saxes can have its drawbacks, however much fun it provides.

[benedictbranca]

In my experience of playing both Alto and Tenor I have a little bit to add to such a debate! I started out on Alto as a beginner playing for a year without the Tenor, and now I play both! But I find as others have experienced that my Alto tone comes a lot better, and quicker when I pick it up! It takes time to find a good sound on the Tenor having practiced on the Alto quite a bit, but once it is mastered I find it really helps my Alto playing in terms of projection and control!

[bjornblomberg]

In my experience, doubling on a bigger sax is always beneficial for the smaller sax. Particularly, I find that playing tenor improves the sound on the alto, and I imagine this is because tenor playing increases the air volume and abdominal support for the tone. Also, the tenor demands a relaxed embouchure, which I think is important for playing all saxophones. (Originally I switched to sax from clarinet, and it took me some time to realize that the mouth needs to relax more on the saxophone...). I am not quite sure about the soprano, though, since it seems to be the instrument that is more different from the rest of the sax family, but my overall impression is that playing tenor and alto improves soprano tone as well. I spend most time on the tenor, and find it very easy to switch to alto or soprano, although it is often good to allow for a few minutes to adjust the embouchure on the soprano. On the other hand, it seems that spending more time on the soprano makes one get a bit out of touch with the tenor. I think, among the various saxes, at least the 3 I play (SAT), the bigger horn / the tenor is the instrument that needs more practise/playing time. However, as others have mentioned, I fully agree that doubling (or tripling) with other instruments is good in terms of giving you new ideas on playing and improving technique.
Bjorn