Too old for this taiwanese thing

[saxophil]

Hi there, as I already posted somewhere last year, I am a 44-old beginner on altosax, and I seem to have a serious philosophical problem about this.
Maybe it is even somewhat psychological too.. Studied classical piano till I was 18 and afterwards no musicplaying at all. Always been interested in saxophone through getting acquaintained with Mr Stan Getz when I studied at university. I have been going to lots off concerts allover Europe when I had the chance and have collected a hughe amount of CD's mainly in the jazz/soul/funk style.
Last summer I finally took up the sax myself, but for some reason I didn't take myself serious enough about it to buy one, so I just rent a .....taiwan thing for a year, hoping I would find out what suits me.
A. my teacher advised starting on alto although I prefer by far the tenor sound ( I am indeed a kind of light weight female, maybe the tenor is indeed too heavy to start with??)
B. I think it is impossible to evaluate my skills on this instruments, because it doesn't suit me as I would like.
C. maybe beginners should start on a pro instrument or am I wrong?
D. maybe I should buy or rent or a pro alto / or a pro tenor?
What do you advise me? I am kind of stuck in this crisis.
Is it possible that the instrument I play now inhibits my evolution for
a. not being a tenor
b. not being a good quality alto?
I figure myself not driving a rented Lada instead of my favorite sportscar I like to drive because of its mechanics and beautifull sound neither.
Thanx to anyone that can help me out of this questions.

[Roger Aldridge]

One thing you might consider doing is to try out a tenor (rent or possibly borrow a horn from a friend). In this way you can compare how it feels playing alto and tenor for yourself.

It sounds like you may be drawn more to tenor than alto. If this is true, then by all means play a tenor.

Once you settle on which horn you want (tenor or alto) let us know and we can then talk about various options to consider for buying a horn. Personally, I think that playing on a pro-level horn is the way to go. Another thing to think about is the new horn versus vintage horn option. There are pros and cons to both sides. But, let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

Please think of yourself as being in the driver's seat regarding this saxophone. At this point in our lives we should be able to do the things that we really want to do (within certain legal and ethical bounds of course). Thus, I'd encourage you to get the kind of horn that really speaks to you and inspires you.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Roger that you should at least try a tenor, so you'll know if that's where you really want to start. I also agree that there's no reason why an adult beginner should not start on a professional-level instrument. Good luck! :)

[saxophil]

Roger Aldridge & Mike R.,
that is exactly what I should have done already some months ago, I mean play a tenor of a friend, anyway not too late by now, maybe my feeling for the instrument itself has grown in the meantime. You can't feel anything when you even don't know how to hold an instrument anyway, at least I couldn't last summer.
In myself, I feel more attracted to tenors anyhow but I am the honest kind of person that always wants to give a chance to all possibilities. Also did I listen to my teacher who's a professional saxplayer.
I was very pleased with your saying to consider myself in the drivers seat of the instrument because you know, it is exactly the very same deep down there ( don't know the words in English for it) feeling I want to resent playing this instrument. A kick but more gentle, beneath the stomach somewhere. I always compare everything with sportscardriving as I am a bit into this too, not very female but who cares..
So off I'll go tomorrow playing some tenors here and there, and for honesty's sake I will try a pro alto too. I will let U know about it later, it would indeed be nice to discuss about pro's and con's of a used versus a new instrument. And in any case about which one anyway.
In fact maybe there is this thing called intuition, which never lets you down, maybe I should have followed it from the beginning.
Life is too short to drink bad wine or drive lazy cars, so why not just go for the dreamsax?

[Jerry K.]

Saxophil, when you go playing tenors keep in mind that the embrouchure and breath support are very different. Relax your embrouchure a lot and think about mving lots of air more slowly. In other workds don't blow real hard and relax.

I, like you, felt drawn to tenor after a couple years of playing alto. For me it wasn't the horn itself that was the problem as I have several good altos. It really was the sound of the tenor that drew me. The first couple times I tried playing them I sounded bad. After about a week the sound was much better on tenor. Today tenor is still my favorite. Play a lot of different horns and let us know what you decide. Enjoy!

[Sassaphone]

Go for the tenor if that's what you want. Buy a pro quality instrument if you can afford it--it will make an big difference in the positive mental aspect you will bring to your practice. It will retain or increase it's value over time. I started on a rented alto, then went to an intermediate Yamaha tenor. A year ago I bought a SeriesIII tenor and I will never part with this horn. :D

[Roger Aldridge]

Saxophil,

Definitely trust your intuition and instinct!

Each saxophone has its own personality. A tenor has a different feeling about it than an alto....just as a soprano is very different from an alto. Also, the different makes and production years of saxophones have different qualities. This is one of the really GREAT things about the saxophone! Finding the particular saxophone that's a good match for who you are is very much like finding a particular wine or car that really does it for you.

Finding your horn can be a wonderful ADVENTURE!

Personally, I think it would be a good idea to read messages posted to both the old and new Sax On The Web Forums about various brands of saxophones. This can help you begin to get a sense of what's out there. There are MANY saxophones to choose from. Of course, the BEST way is to try out various horns for yourself and see what you like.

A new pro-level saxophone -- such as a Selmer or Yani -- is hard to beat. But, good quality restored vintage saxophones -- such as Buescher, Conn, or Martin (to name just three companies) have very special qualities. In particular, regarding their sound. Over the years I've had new and vintage horns. Both have their strong points. Some people love modern horns and some love vintage. It's simply a matter of personal choice. I've come to really love vintage Buescher saxophones in the 1928 to 1939 production years. These horns REALLY do it for me. But, they might not be what you are looking for. Thus, again, I'd encourage you to try out a good selection of horns and see what works best for you.

By spending some time reading about the pros and cons of the various saxophones on the market (both new and vintage) you'll learn A LOT. It can be really enjoyable. It's like entering a whole new world. But, the most important thing is that you'll be in a better position to make an informed decision about the kind of saxophone you want.

Please let us know how your saxophone adventure goes for you.

[saxophil]

Sassaphone, it is not a question of being able to afford a new sax.
Would you for yourself not find it a bit weired knowing someone learning to play on a tip top seriesIII for instance?
This is a question I asked myself time and time again before.
I didn't learn to play the piano on a Steinway neither...
Maybe I should have done so...
To be honest, the seriesIII is indeed one of the dreamsaxes I am thinking of, but in some awfull christian-education-way I think I have to earn my place on such an instrument by going through some lesser things first, although... 44 is maybe the right time in life to skip some of them?

[Roger Aldridge]

Saxophil,

Please allow me to jump in regarding the last part of your message.

Personally, I don't think that it makes any sense for an adult to go through beginning, intermediate, and advanced (pro) level instruments. This can be okay for a young child. But, you don't need to do that. You can go right to the top! Really, starting with an intermediate level instrument and after a period of time moving up to a better quality horn usually turns into a waste of money. It's MUCH BETTER to take the money that you'd spend on a beginning level instrument, add to it, and get a pro-level horn. Believe me, you'll be much happier in the long run.

[saxmanjack]

Agreed. Look for a good horn.

Enough about saxes; What do you drive?

[saxophil]

for normal driving with the kids and for working purpose an audi quattro 2.8 tiptronic; for fun, kicks, circuit and summer, a porsche carrera4 model 93 cabriolet with some nice options
..... and still playing that taiwanese horn..
but I earned driving those cars by learning how to in a correct way, so do I want to do with the sax too.

[Jerry K.]

"but I earned driving those cars by learning how to in a correct way, so do I want to do with the sax too."

Nah, go right to the top! The only reason not to buy a top level pro horn is financial. If you have the resources, and apparently you do, get the horn you really want. Now if money were no object I would look at the Bronz, the solid silver and the bronz and silver limited production horns by Yanagisawa. The one with the bronz body and silver bell and neck just floors me! Could be tough to find though as they only make a handful a year. You would also do well with a Selmer, a Keilwerth, a B&S or a Yamaha, depending on what just feels and sounds right to you. Good hunting!

[-j.]

I, too, would highly recommend bying a pro-level horn. I was in a similar situation: started out playing clarinet in elementary school, switched to sax in high school. I stopped palying altogether (unfortunately) when I went to grad school. Then, as I was writing my dissertation, I needed something to keep me from going insane... And I was mighty, mighty glad that the alto sax I'd started out with was a Mark VII. This way I knew I had a horn that would take me as far as I wanted to go, and I never had to wonder if it was the horn or me when I couldn't make it do what I wanted it to do (it was always me -- and still is...). If you have the cash, there's nothing wrong with getting the best there is. Just be careful: this saxophone stuff is highly addictive! Before you know it, you'll want a soprano. Then a tenor or alto. Then you'll get more and more curious about those vintage horns... I know, it's happened to me. No wait, it is STILL happening, HEEEEEEeeeeeelp........

Hope you find what you're looking for.

-j.

[Jon B. Bop]

To Saxophil,

I had the same reservations that you have about getting a 'pro' horn as a beginner. After 6 months on a Yamaha student tenor, I said "what the heck!" and bought a 1959 MK VI.

At first I really didn't hear that much of a difference, But I just took out the yamaha after about 7 months... unbelievable!

Do it with no regrets. In fact, enjoy the process of finding the right horn. The cats on this forum can give you a lot assistance.

Good Luck

[Pete]

Ladies and gents, please don't post people's private e-mail addresses. That's a violation of our rules listed in Forum General Info (http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16) under the banner of "invasive of other peoples' privacy". We've had problems with this before and I don't want these problems to happen in the future.

If the user has decided to make his e-mail address public in his Profile, then g'head and post it, because this IMPLIES the person wants to get e-mail, but if not, please don't.

If you don't want people to e-mail you make sure you click on NO for "Always show my e-mail address" in your Profile (http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/profile.php?mode=editprofile).

[Ronin1]

Saxophil - there are 2 philosophies about how to select an instrument. One si to say that since you are a beginner, you ought to get a beginner horn, and work your way up. The other way of looking at this, is to think about buying the best quality/level of horn you can afford, and then working on your skills on the higher grade of horn. Both are equally valid ways of learning an instrument. However, experienced players will tell you, that if you can afford it, the second option is perhaps a more efficient way of doing things. @ reasons . A better quality horn will be easier to play, stay in adjustment longer, and hence you will be ablt to play in tune, not have intonation problems, and it will also have better keywork, and hence it will be easier physically to play the horn. Plus the psychological benefite - a better horn will make you sound better, be easier to play, which will make the improvements come faster, and hence motivate you to practise, and get better. Since in an earlier post you had said that expense is not an issue, you might just want to go in and buy yourself a pro-level horn.
Just my 2 Cents. Best of luck
-Ronin1 :D

[saxophil]

:D thank you for all the answers, I am making up my mind about going to look for my own pro-quality sax to coninue with, as a matter of fact it is all about the joy of playing music and learning how to express myself in this way.
Although, one more question: some of my my favorite sound examples, let's say CDs I have always with me are: Joshua Redman, Stan Getz early things, Charles Lloyd, Branford Marsalis (Buckshotlefoncque), some Stanley Turrentine, Joe Lovano, just to name some of them, maybe you guys see something similar between these examples?
Has anyone of you an idea which saxophone I should look for?
Thanks, v.

[I. Fallon]

Hi Saxophil.

After following your thread, I wish to bring up one point that others have not picked up upon. In the saxophone family, the alto is much more like a sports car than the tenor. To continue the analogy, a tenor has a longer wheel base for freeway driving, and an alto takes the curves tighter.

Tenor saxophones are more expensive both new and used, and are less available on the used market. I love the tenor myself.

You have great taste in saxophone players and I think that you know what you want to sound like. I like that sound myself. The great thing about a good saxophone is once you develop "your" sound, you can play it on just about any manufacturer's instrument.

I agree with the other posters that an adult should look into pro instruments. But don't short change the importance of a good teacher.

Best of luck.

[Jerry K.]

I second I. Fallon's recommendation that you seek out a good teacher. For me as a fellow adult player, I really appreciate that my teacher is a very busy working professional player. Helps me to get a real world perspective on playing and what's really important.

As to horns, among my tenors I play my silver plated B&S (German) the most, followed by my Prestini (Taiwanese), followed by my Martin (American). I play the B&S the most because it's got a great sound and really good ergonomics. The Martin has the best overall sound IMHO but is just not as comfortable for me to play.

If I were you I would try to play everything I could. If you don't mind going as far as Holland, Saxofoonwinkel in Deventer http://www.saxshop.nl/nieuw.htm has a great selection and are very nice folks to deal with.

Saxofoonwinkel Grote Kerkhof 31, Deventer, Holland
Telephone (31) 570612844 Fax (31) 570671609

[JEdge]

Just to play the devils advocate... It might be a better idea to stay with the beginner instrument and later, when you are more advanced switch to a pro level horn. The reason is so you dont waste 3000 on a sax that really isnt fit for you. With your limited knowledge of the saxophone im not sure you will give each sax the fair chance it deserves. You will go with what other people say to buy and not what you think because at this point in your sax career you simply are not knowledgeable enough to hear the discrepancies in sound and feel and quality and all the things that make a pro sax a pro sax. You say money is not an issue but 3000 is still 300 am i correct? I, for one, do not have the money and i was given the great chance to get a professional horn from my granparents. I did 6 months worth of research leading up to this purchase, i tried them all out, i did everything everyone told me to do to make a good choice, but now over a year after the purchase i cant help but think that i made the wrong choice. Well, not necessarily the wrong choice but i didnt give all the brands their fair chance and was extremly biased to what other people said. Now im stuck with a great horn, but i always have the lingering thought in the back of my head that i wasted 3000 bucks on a tenor im not completely satisfied with. You also should note that a professional horn will not make you better. Expecially this early in your playing. Dont go out and buy a pro-horn with the thought that you will become so much better with a 3000 instrument in your hands. Saxophone playing takes many many many hours of practice over a long period of time to become a decent sax player.

Anyways im done responding cause it is getting late and if i dont practice now then i wont be able to. :)

[JL]

I'm going to agree with all those who tell you to go for the Pro horn right up front. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend $3000, or buy a brand new horn. I definitely prefer vintage horns, but that's a personal opinion. However, you can still get a better value for a vintage horn, with the exception of a Mark VI. Just be sure you get a horn in good repair or be willing to get it overhauled, if you go vintage. Even if you get a great pro horn, vintage or otherwise, you may get the itch to try some other brand down the road, so don't let the idea that your sound concept or desire for something different might change stop you from buying a decent horn right now.

Here's one suggestion: The vintage Bueschers have excellent intonation, good keywork, and a marvelous tone. You can still pick them up for reasonable prices. Just one idea to look into. Best way would be to get something now, then spend time learning to play it. Of course, you'll want a good mouthpiece..........

Also, if you like tenor, I'd suggest going for it. Play the one you like best at first. These are all just opinions & you'll get plenty of them here.

Good luck in your musical pursuit.

[saxophil]

:lol:
all right Jerry K, guess I am forced to offer myself some days "blowing in holland" now I've seen the site of the shop in Deventer!!!
thx, x v.

[saxophil]

Some of you guys emphasized the enormous value of a good teacher, I hope I do have one, it is a family friend that we know for some 10 years now, in fact he came babysitting when my kids were younger and he always brought his sax with him. He studied classical saxophone at the Conservatorium at that time and has got his degree cum laude in the meanwhile, now he is teaching music at highschool during the day and he plays tenor and soprano in some different bands all the other time.
I was going to look for a "stranger" teacher and I did for a while, but did not find a person whose personality not to mention musical style matched so well with mine, btw this gives me also the opportunity to have my lessons whenever it suits me, so no strict time-regimen, which is an enormous advantage for me in my ...euh rather busy life (cfr mini bios topic).
Is it an advantage or a disadvantage to have a friend as a teacher, who can say? Maybe it is all the way the same the other way around, those of you with strange teachers don't they become friends also?
In fact our "lessons" are real fun and mostly take all the afternoon instead of the one hour sessions we agreed when starting, but indeed sometimes I would like someone to force me to do this or do that, then again I find myself too old for this school-approach, who can say what is right?
your opinions?
:?: x v.

[tox]

Hi Saxophil
I remember ordering a Selmer tenor many years ago. The great guy in the shop let me borrow a shop "cheapo" tenor till my Selmer arrived. After a couple of weeks I thought "what have I done. Made a big mistake going for a tenor". Then my Selmer arrived. WOW the difference was unbelievable. No worries then I can tell you. I swear if I had kept the crap horn it would have ended up in the bin.
I play a MK Vl now but be carefull there are many bad ones about. I tried dozens before I found "the one".
By the way, keep the teacher. Seems you get on well and enjoy the process.
Tox

[alsdiego]

Saxophil,

I can really appreciate where you're coming from. About six months ago, I decided to get back into music in a servious way after a layoff of 30 years or so... like you, I agonized over whether to pay the money for a pro horn. I finally ended up with a King Super 20 alto, and it's one of the best decisions I ever made, especially after it was overhauled by a master sax tech. It was, for me, a great decision.

One point I don't believe has been made yet - a primary reason to start with a cheap horn (from the view of many parents), is to save money until they find out whether the child will stay with it. That's the way I started, and I can still remember the day my teacher brought in the Selmer Mark VI... it then became a different world. The problem with this philosophy is that some student horns are so bad that they discourage the beginner, so that quitting becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy. Also, because you are an adult with an obvious passion for music, the chances of you not staying with it are small. Therefore, buying a good horn probably makes sense in your situation. You certainly don't have to "earn it" by becoming a great player first.

Best of luck,

Al

[Greyduster]

I took up tenor two and a half years ago at age 49. Bought a student model which did me ok but I was beginning to get frustrated. I bought a Yanagisawa 991 three days ago. I knew it would be different but as soon as I started playing I just new I had to buy it. I definitely recommend you go out and try some pro saxes immediately and buy the one you like. I'mnever going to be a Stan Getz or a John Coltrane but I can practice, play, and enjoy what I do and why not on a decent horn.

[alsdiego]

Greyduster,

Amen to that! Remember, we must always have a better horn than our grandchildren!! :P

Al

[DR Prince]

I, too, fall into the Late Bloomer category. I played Alto sax from abut 10 years old and on into college. But my college major (Accounting) and career path took me elsewhere. I took it back up about a year and a half ago. Now onto my reply to your post:

All Taiwanese saxes are not created equal! I bought a Yanagisawa Alto when I started back and really enjoy it. But when I started talking about getting a Tenor, a friend here in Atlanta that is an outstanding Jazz player said that I may want to look at a Cannonball. He said one of his students has one and he was very impressed with the quality and the sound of the instrument. Coming from a guy that plays Guardalas and, of course, the required Mark VI tenor, I had to pay attention -- especially when he said the price was SUBSTANTIALLY less than the "big name" brands. Cannonball is a company out of Salt Lake City, Utah and has their instruments made in Taiwan (except the keys are forged in Japan) and then they assemble them in Salt Lake City. I bought my tenor from them and have been very pleased. Is it as good a quality as a Selmer Series III or a Yamaha Custom? Probably not. But at almost half the price, I still feel I got a pro-line sax that looks great, sounds great and will last me a long time.

The down side to them -- They don't allow their instruments to be sold on the web and not every town (even as large as Atlanta) has a local dealer. But you can get around that. Check out their website if you are interested...

[MarkSeven]

I believe that in the future, Taiwan will become the "Band Instrument Capital of the World". They still put out a lot of junk, yet they are improving . As time goes on they will have the experience and craftsmanship that was once the hallmark of the former "Band Instrument Capital of the World"; Elkhart, Indiana. I play a Selmer, but I have to say that Cannonball and Unison both give the "big four" a run for their money.

[Bartleby]

This nonsense about philosophical and psychological questions regarding the purchase of a sax all sounds a bit precious. If you can afford something decent and it's what you want then buy it. I am stuck with a Taiwanese sax precisely because I cannot afford something decent. But if things ever pick up for me I'm off to the shop to buy a sterling silver Yanagisawa alto and a Peter Eaton Bb clarinet even though I'll continue to sound crap. Remember you are a long time dead, so enjoy what you can while you can.