How long will it take before I become a "decent" p

[fballatore]

OK, just had my first lesson tonight, and it was great! One of the questions I asked the instructor was "Typically, how long does it take a new student to become a "decent" player?" His answer was "your entire life" and proceeded to explain that at 32 years old, he's been playing for 25 years, and still thinks he has much room for improvement. We moved on to another topic, and I really didn't follow up the question; I plan to ask him again next week. I know that the answer depends on the student, their drive and dedication, etc., but I'm looking for a ballpark. A year, two years, more?? I thought I'd post the question here to get different opinions... I'm not planning to go pro, but I want to hold my own eventually. Looking forward to all the responses.

Thanks,

Frank

[HC]

I really like his answer. No matter how much you know, there is always so much more to learn.

As for a "real" answer, like what you are looking for, it really depends on how much you practice.

[fballatore]

Let's say I practice up to an hour a day at least 6 days a week, and sometimes a bit longer on weekends. What would you say then?

[DanY]

I asked that same question of my teacher when I was just starting out (I was 18, he was 30). He gave me the same answer "Your whole life".

I thought he didn't understand me. I KNEW that if I only knew my major scales, I would be satisfied. Well... the answer is : you will never be satisfied with your playing. There will always be "one more thing".

I promise that if you practise an hour a day for 6 months, you [u]will[/] be a much better player, but your definition of a "decent" player will have moved further on.

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[Kareeser]

That answer is better suited to "How long will it take for me to become a good player".

In your question, the answer will be: Whenever you are satisfied with your playing.

Most people never will be. I am. That doesn't mean that I don't strive for improvement, I just like the way I'm going, and don't really want to improve all that much, because I like what I sound like, :)

[gary]

Frank. Why don't you tell us what YOU think a decent player is. What is your criteria? If you can't define that, we can't even guess at an answer because that could be different for each of us.

[fballatore]

Gary -

Excellent point. And I guess what I mean by decent (or perhaps I should say good player), is that I'd like to be able to entertain not only myself, but others as well. I want to be able to take part in a band if asked and not embarass myself. I'm not talking about being in a band that plays regular gigs, but just for fun get togethers or mini jam sessions. I'd like to be able to play music well; not expertly (although if I get to that point, great), but well enough so that people listening are entertained and enjoy what I'm doing, and are not repulsed. I want to get to the point where I can play something like Florida Straits by Spyro Gyra, and sound somewhat like how the recording sounds.

Geez, I think I understand what everyone is saying when they say that they're never satisfied...

I hope I've given you enough info.

Thanks,

Frank

[dpwadw]

here's a few over-simplified "ballpark" goals (timewise):

1) the mechanical basics: first year students learn a few notes and a simple rhythm and play short songs with those. Then they add a couple more fingerings, change the rhythm a bit and play more difficult songs. This continues such that over the course of the first year, the player will cover much of the scale of the horn, basic counting theory, and some articulations.

2) embochure and tone: second and third year students work on increasingly more demanding music, all the while focusing on improving their tone and embochure strength. By the end of the 3rd year many are beginning to be serviceable players.

3) During high school (years 4-7) some players plateau (maybe because of distractions). Others rise to the top. A few will become decorated locally and at the state level. These players are nearing collegiate level skill.

Beyond: Developing pro tone, attitude, improvisational abilities etc may indeed take a lifetime. As many have said, even if your audience likes you, you will still be your own best critic until the grave.

[fballatore]

Thanks dpwadw!

From your reply, I can see that it will be 2-3 years before I meet my definition of "decent" or "good". I'm sure I'll find that I'll never be totally satisfied with my sound, but at this stage of my life, I'm not looking to become a pro player. Hopefully it will help that my high school years are way behind me; I won't have the distractions you refer to, and will continue to progress beyond my 3rd year of playing.

One thing though - can you give me some examples of the "more demanding music" that second and third year students work on? That will give me an even better understanding.

Thanks,

Frank

[dpwadw]

Well, you're aiming towards jazz, and I was speaking more from a legit angle. But basically, etude books are excellent legit study material that even the most puritanical jazz player can benefit from.

Once you advance a bit, some examples are 'Selected Studies for Saxophone' and '48 Famous Studies' for sax.

On the jazz side, get yourself a good jazz theory book (there are many), and perhaps a improvisation book/cd from Jamey Aebersold. There are jazz etudes to pursue as well.

Remember the tone! So many students get great mechanically, but are relegated to sounding like sixth-graders. I've said it on SOTW before, tape yourself. Tape will humble you, tape humbles me. Tape doesn't lie.

Most importantly, listen to as many different players and styles as possible. As you attain skill, you'll reach points where you say things like, "ah ha! that's how Beckenstein did that" in a particular song.

Hope this helps.

[fballatore]

Very helpful, thanks again for your suggestions. One thing though; I'm not sure that I'm only aiming at jazz, I love all kinds of sax music. I would hope to be able to play some classical pieces, and other styles. Is it too far fetched to think that way? Are there different learning methods for jazz, classical, etc? I'd even like to be able to play some Christmas music next December!

And you've hit the nail right on the head. I don't want to sound like a sixth grader (although I'm sure that there are some very good sounding sixth graders out there, no offense! I'm thinking of how my son sounded on the bass clarinet in sixth grade!) I will be sure to tape myself. I'm guessing that's at least 6 months down the road.

Frank

[JL]

I think if you expect too much too soon, you'll be frustrated. However, for many players who practice regularly (!) the first two or three years will see marked improvement, followed by a relatively long plateau and more gradual improvement. Everyone is different and you really won't know until you try. Keep practicing and enjoy the journey.

[fballatore]

JL -

That's exactly why I was asking the question; I don't want to set high expectations for myself, I want realistic expectations. In researching learning to play the sax, I've seen many times where people have said that the sax is "easy" to learn, and I dont' see how that is. I definitely plan to practice as much as I can, and I'm already enjoying the journey!

Frank

[gary]

Frank, one of the most efficient resources I've seen for getting a perspective on one's level is the syllabus and materials available from the Associated Board of Royal Schools of Music (UK).

While any sytem has its arbitrary or non-measurable facets to it, I think the ABRSM system is an excellent resource. If I'm not mistaken, the various levels one must progress through culminate in a level equivalent to an entering music major at one of the Royal Schools of Music. So you can look at these materials (I think there are eight levels) and see where in the scheme of things you rate.

I have used their materials to mark my progression on secondary instruments, to include piano. Naturally these materials pertain to your primary instrument as well.

The materials contain scales, articulations, theory, and compositions from different musical eras. Originally not jazz-oriented, they have recently added jazz materials to their curriculla. Check it out at: http://www.abrsm.org/

By the way, although I might not characterise the progress exactly as dpwadw noted above (and that doesn't mean he's wrong by any means), I would agree that what you're looking to achieve is about a three-year venture; considering you age and "assumed" maturity, LOL, maybe a little less. As a "late bloomer" on one hand you should have a better ability to focus than an adolescent, on the other hand you have other responsibilities that can drain one's energies.

[Old Charlie]

Well, thanks dpwadw.

I'm a new player too and I can see that this is going to take a little longer than I hoped for, but I'm figuring I have the rest of my life to enjoy this thing.

Like Frank, I want to get to the part where I don't embarass myself and can play with a neighborhood band. So three years and lots of practice. Okay :roll:

Good stuff. Thanks guys.

[Helen]

Sax is definately an easy instrument to learn how to play badly. Having a teacher right from the start is a good way to avoid many pitfalls that beginning players fall into. Good for you for investing in lessons! That will go a long way in speeding up your learning process, and hopefully reduce the chances of learning all kinds of bad habits that you will eventually have to unlearn.

[dpwadw]

Frank,

Regarding your comment about sax being easy to learn...

I hear this often too and have even said it a few times myself. Please let me qualify the statement:

-Brass instruments require tremendous embouchure training early on to just 'hit' the right notes. Flutes have a difficult embouchure also.

-Double reeds and clarinets have open holes and fingerings that often change according to register.

-The saxophone has a pretty limited basic range (2 1/2 octaves). For two complete octaves no fingerings change at all (sans the octave key), and mouth effort is fairly consistent. The tone takes a while, but the mechanics go fast.

-The proof? with sixth grade band, the sax section advances (arguably) faster than other sections (except percussion...drummers don't need an embouchure).

[dpwadw]

Old Charlie,

Sorry to bear the news about the time required. I sincerely hope you reach your goals quickly and have tons of fun getting there.

There are individuals that I've taught which possess just an amazing amount of natural talent. They learn so fast and seem to play effortlessly. I don't fit into that category however. Every bit of decoration and accolade I've received has required intense practice. In truth, most great players (not that I'm one of them) spend little time away from their axes.

Once you have a good foundation, you'll notice that faster passages, tough key and time signatures, yada yada will begin to come easier.

Best of luck to you! The saxophone is a blessing.

[BatteySax]

The question is - Decent as compared to what?

[AchyEars]

All,

I have not yet started to play the sax but recently bought one. I have been studying this site and others on how to start my new "career" in music.

I like many in this thread have wondered when I might be able to play music for people and actually sound like music. Hence my name. :dazed:

I believe all who are just starting are worried that we may develop "bad" habits or not get all the information to begin a journey to "saxual joy." :toothy7:

I have found that everyone here seems to be very helpful and optimistic in all the beginners interest which is an awesome change from the norm.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks and I hope that in 2-3 years my abilities will be strong enough to entertain friends but that I will find entertainment in it myself to continue finding joy in which to strive for a more complete understanding/playing of this beautiful sounding instrument.

[littlemanbighorn]

I really like his answer. No matter how much you know, there is always so much more to learn.

As for a "real" answer, like what you are looking for, it really depends on how much you practice.


It also depennds how you practice. How focussed you are and what you work on . It's not simply playing for 6 hours a day. It's how you spend those 6 hours.

[ilovejazzmusic22]

in a way it depends on how much you practice, but...

Like I'd say, start up to 30 mins then go on to an hour and so on
and third I'd say

I really think he answerd your question but with less description.
The more you practice, the easier things will be, the less you practice, you may not get anything in it at all.

If you went 2 times a week to your sax and practiced, you'd probably would not get as much as you would out of it, as if you went to practice your sax 4 times a week.

If you want to play everyday, then set a time limit! Too much practice can over do it too and make you not want to pick it up again, so really it all depends on you!

Hope that makes sence.

[cbcohick]

OK, just had my first lesson tonight, and it was great! One of the questions I asked the instructor was "Typically, how long does it take a new student to become a "decent" player?"

According to my calculations, it will take you exactly 6 years, 3 months, and 2 days to become decent. I had to fudge a bit on the "time spent thinking of new Kenny G jokes" variable, but I'd guess I am within a day or two.

Good Luck
:D

[CSharp]

I started at 38 and have been playing for 3 1/2 years. I made a recording of my first scale (C major) about 2 weeks after I purchased my first horn. Periodically, I play that recording just as a reminder of how far I've come.

Passion has no time limit!

[BlueNote]

It's not so much how much you practice, but how wisely you use your time. Practice what you don't know, not what you do know. Don't waste your time when you want to work on scales and chords.

More than half of my time playing horn is not shedding, but just playing (almost always with a metronome). That's where the creativity comes from. I love playing my horn. I can't go even an hour some days without picking it up and blowing for a while. If you never experiment, then you won't be as creative and original as you would be if you simply just worked off the books, listened to CDs and emulated. It's important to just play your horn and noodle around every once in a while. It's not pointless to do it.

I have grown tremendously with this:

Listening a lot + some transcribing + lots of group playing + shedding + lessons + noodling around + reading

Each one of those components is important to have. It's not enough to simply practice at home.

[mwhaa]

people have different standards of decent, but aroudn here in my high school im considered decent to pretty good and i have been play since february, but my director also told me, i've done some things and made gains that take most players years to learn.

[ilovejazzmusic22]

people have different standards of decent, but aroudn here in my high school im considered decent to pretty good and i have been play since february, but my director also told me, i've done some things and made gains that take most players years to learn.


exactly. I say time is important, and yeah what's being used during your time is important too, like a variation of excersizes plus the ones that are already used will help.

[iplaydasax]

hey guys and gals - good post but the answer has already been answered practice practice, practice and a good teacher. Although im only 16 (ive been playing around 2 and a half years and have the most amazing teacher ;) ) i am taking my grade 8 next term. you have to be dedicated to the instrument and the lifestyle and the practice. different people have different stages of talent. some can pick it up easily where as some take a little longer. Just keep at it and you will get to the stage you want to be at your own pace. Keep well everyone Love Nicky xx