Bari Emrouchure

[philly_sax]

I went back to the tenor sax a few years ago after a ten year hiatus, and of course thought there was something wrong with the sax, when for the most part, it was my embrouchure (sp?).

Now, after a lot of hemming anf hawing and being afraid to take the plunge on e-bay, I picked up a brand new Buescher BU-6 for a very good price. It's a student model, but I had read postings that its tone was quite good. I demo'd it against a used Armstrong, and the tone was clearly superior.

I'm having difficulty with the D using the octave key - about half the time I get it, another quarter it's sort of growling n between both registers, but the right note, and another quarter of the time I'm hitting an A with it. It's the same note as upper octave A, so is it an Altissimo note? Any tips on adjusting the embrochure to deal with this?

[singlereed]

I think you have a leak in the sax somewhere or possibly a bad reed or ligature. The bari should not mean a major leap for a tenor player, I 'd have the horn checked out.

[philly_sax]

Thanks for the advice. The reed is new, but the only ones they had in the store were La Voz, Medium soft. The ligature is new as is the mouthpiece - ebonite Berg Larsen 105/2. I'll try a new reed, and if no good, I'll have it looked at before I drive myself crazy trying to compensate for a leak.

[Helen]

Since baris are very prone to regulation problems because of their size, and especially since (presumably) it was shipped to you, rather than you picking it up at a dealer, getting the horn checked for leaks would be a safe bet. The shipping could have caused leaks.

When I first got my bari (it was vintage), I played it for a year not knowing that it needed regulation. I kept trying to compensate with reed and mouthpiece experiments and was finally succesful. After my tech guy looked at it for the first time, it played like a different horn. All the things I learned to do to have it play well, I had to unlearn. Duh... :oops:

[DirkW]

Every player should buy a cable light to check for leaks. They're under $15 at the local hardware store. 18" is a good length. It's amazing how quickly horns can start leaking, especially if you move it around a lot.

[michael]

How do I use a cable light? Do I just stick it in my horn and look around the pads for leaks?

Thanks.

[DirkW]

Checking for a leak with a cable light (or rope light) is best done in a dimly lit room. Plug the light in and gently put it in all the way into the body tube. Close all the keys and look for light peeking out between the pad and the tone hole. You shouldn't have to press hard on the keys. Check alternative key combinations such as the bis Bb and the one-and-one Bb. Finger a G# and press a lower stack key, making sure the G# key fully closes.

If you have a low A horn, you may want to get a 24" cable light.

[jvickers]

I'm a little surprised that everyone immediately jumped to the possibility of the horn having a leak.

I've played the sax as a hobby for 20+ years and just recently started playing the bari in a couple of groups I'm in. I haven't played the bari since 1987 and I have the exact same problem.

I find that as I get warmed up, the problem almost goes away, but I still have to be aware of it, or I'll get the A overtone or the 'growl' when I play a middle D.

I find the A overtone much more of a problem, especially when playing a high A or G followed by a D. You might practice that some to make yourself aware of the embouchure changes you need to make when playing a D.

[philly_sax]

Jvickers, thanks much for your comments. Who would have thought someone else would have precisely the same issue. You did not state, but I assume, that you ruled out a leak in your bari. Otherwise, I suppose we could both have the same leak!

I guess I'll try to cover both bases.

[Grantibibitus]

I'm with the leakers on this one. It's most likely the G or the G# key that isn't sealing. Try playing the note a few times without attempting to compensate for the breaking of the D. Then try a few more times but with a friend pressing on the G, then on the G# keycups. If the D suddenly comes out clean with a friend assisting, whichever keycup he pressed on is the one that isn't sealing. Good Luck.

-Grant

[Cutoirexe]

Oh man, I know actually what you mean. I just got the same model last year and I've been having the same exact problem. Unfortunately, I have yet to figure out a solution. It really sucked doing auditions worrying if you're going to miss that high D, but at least the A is at a 5th so it somewhat fits in. IF anyone has any suggestions, I would also greatly appreciate them.

[Cutoirexe]

Unlike you 2 guys, I have been steadily playing the Bari for about 5 years, so I'm almost positive it's not my embouchure.

[Kosma]

I've been playing the bari for 4 days and I'm having the same problem.
My E also breaks to the overtone. I just got the horn back from a rebuild. I have the problem when I push hard. I don't think it's a leak but it could be. I think it's more likely a matter of learning to voice on the instrument. I'm a tenor player but started on alto. When I first started playing tenor I had the same problem-middle D breaking to the overtone.
BTW it's a silver plated big B aristo ca.1951...and it's very nice!

[Kosma]

Turns out I did have a leak. The pad above F. Suddenly I had to try to get that overtone. Voicing is still a big part of it though.

[philly_sax]

Never did I imagine I would generate such interest with my question. You'll have to stay in suspense a bit longer and I will reveal the answer to the question was it a leak or not? Why wait? Because I gave myself tendonitis in my thumb even using a Neotech harness and for now I'm playing a Yamaha WX5 electronic wind instrument with a V-70m tone generator and a really awesome bari voice patch.

Everyone have a nice holiday.

[philly_sax]

I still have not had time to buy a leak light, but did pick up the bari yesterday and practiced. The overtone was absent. After about 45 minutes, I put it down and did something else, then went back to it, and lo and behold, experienced the overtone on the D2 a few times. Seems to me there would have been a problem from the git-go if there were a leak, but I'm going to break down and buy the light since I need one anyway.

I'll keep you posted.

[Kosma]

I've considered getting a leak light but what for? I can't fix it myself so what good would it do me?

[DirkW]

I first bought a leak light to determine if the problem is me or the horn. Leaks often develop slowly, like a car getting out of alignment. You don't really notice it until it gets bad. Before buying my leak light and key clamps, I would take my horn in every three months for an adjustment.

If I have a minor leak, I nudge my keys into adjustment. I don't have any training, I just do it through trial and error. The first couple took a long time, and I made it much worse before I got it right. With practice, I can now nudge keys without much effort.

I've got a question for the trained technicians. Am I setting myself up for longer term problems by nudging the keys myself? Is there a right way and a wrong way to nudge keys?

[saxboy]

Sax players love them at first.
Repair guys hate them.
You better have a repair guy you can get to 24/7 if you are gonna start messing with a light. You will want to try and fix the leak and will damage something else in the process; not every time, but once in a while - it will be a very bad time to have made something worse.
Many people don't understand how regulating the sax effects other parts of the horn too.
You can see your Biss Bb key not closing when you finger 1 and 1, and make an adjustment that throws of the whole left hand; and then if pressed too hard throws off many of the right to left hand adjustments.

I did repair, studied it and did it long enough to realize I was not that good, did not want to work on my horn and later could not justify working on others for money if I did not trust my work for me. I know = it sounds dumb but I was very young at the time.

Point being - I had great lights and a shop around for years. Just about everytime you play long enough to soak your pads, they will have a minor leak somewhere that the next day will be somewhere else. You can get pretty nuts fixing little things that just go away the next day or two.

I got rid of my repair lights and just get into the repair guy when there is a question. I am much happier. My sax is happier and I don't have a lame night because I saw a crack of light at the f# key before playing a gig.

It might just be me, but I love not knowing everything as much as I do knowing certain things.

As a rule of thumb. Always get new horns checked, traveled horns, and saxes you leave sitting too long. If you have a problem of any kind, get the sax looked at first to elliminate that as the problem or to fix the problem. You can't improve much if the sax is sucking. Then get to work and blow.

Don't use a repair need as an excuse to suck, or a "bad reed" either. Fix things that are bad and it starts being fun.

I love my repair guy and he loves me. I play lame reeds forever just because I can.
SAXBOY

[bari_sax_diva]

I dunno... if I were having a problem with notes jumping octaves, the first thing I'd do is get the horn checked for leaks. ESPECIALLY if it's just been overhauled. The pads should have been seated, but a few days' practice may very well cause something to settle slightly weird, and it only takes a minute for a tech to fix it.

Taking this topic a bit further, I would recommend finding a repairman you trust and get in the habit of taking the horn into him about a week before you have something really big coming up, like an audition, or a judged solo piece. Whenever I have to record I go see my buddy Greg, and when he's done I find a few little things just go so much more easily. These things are stressful enough without having to worry about your horn letting you down. Fortunately, Greg is an insomniac who I can call anytime, and he'll get most minor stuff done by the next day or so. A big bottle of Merlot as a tip certainly doesn't hurt, though. :-)

Cheers,
Leanne

[electricninja]

I got my bari yesterday and the notes were out-of-order. Wondered what was going on. Then I saw the G# just barely hanging off the tone hole. Checked the spring for that, no problem.

Then this morning I moved the keys with my fingers to try to find out the problem. Heard a "snap" that shook the whole sax. Looked down, the C# spring had come loose. Turns out it wasn't on the whole way and this was keeping G# open.

Popped it in, now I get to play "Return to Sender" for dear ma-ma. 8)

[hannibal]

I agree with the attitude 'leave it to the pro's'. My pop used to say that intelligence isn't what stuff you have in your head, but knowing what you don't have in your head. Kinda hillbilly version of Socrates i guess. All that time I'd spend on figuring out how my horn works I'd rather spend woodshedding.


hey electricninja

I was born and raised in Cincy before moving to the UK a few years ago.
Send me an email if you've got time and let me know waz happenin' in the old scene! jeffrey@demaree.fsnet.co.uk

[philly_sax]

Well, here it is 2004, and I never got the bari checked out. Have been mostly playing tenor and the WX5. However, I spent a few hours over the weekend before a gig where I was planning to use the bari on some Motown stuff and Lo and Behold, I was able to see that the G# pad was not sealing consistently. I investigated further and found that a very small piece of cork that rests on what I'll call a pivot pin had cracked in half and was still affixed with adhesive, but tended to slide around without actually falling off. So, sometimes I got a good seal, and sometimes I didn't. I did the unthinkable and took a very small piece of duct tape and secured the cork for a quick fix and it held for the evening, but now I am also noticing that in order to hit the low A consistently, I need to not only use the C key with the left thumb low A key, but also the low B key, which I don't think is the way the fingering charts show it, but I can see it creates a better seal. so, the morale of the story is - leave it to the pros and get the sax checked out and regulated by someone you trust. Now, all I have to do is find that someone.