Cause or Causes of Reed Death

[Steve J.]

Why is reed lifespan limited? Why do synthetics last longer? Why do plasticover reeds last less than synthetic but longer than cane? What does wetting/drying cycle actually do? Is there only so many vibrations in a reed? Does removal of cane effect longevity? Is reed life effected by mouthpiece and why?

[Mike Ruhl]

My, but we're just chock full o' questions, aren't we? :wink:

Yes, it's true: reeds wears out. Cane reeds wear out because the back-and-forth movement breaks down the structural integrity of the fibers. This breakdown process is actually slowed somewhat by wetting, which lubricates the internal structures. However, some believe that enzymes on our saliva facilitates the breakdown, and suggest that you wet with water, not saliva. And if the drying process is not controlled, a cane reed can warp beyond usability.

Synthetics don't break down as quickly, but they do break down, and usually catastrophically (very quickly).

An unbalanced facing on a mouthpiece can cause the reed to vibrate unevenly, or asymetrically in relation to its center axis. The result is excessive stress, which causes premature breakdown.

:USA:

[Vortex]

It's actually a good idea to soak reeds in saliva initially, because the fibers are too rigid and need to "break in". Water isn't as good an idea because it is conductive to mold and prevents reeds from breaking in properly, also a little absent-mindedness can lead to oversoaking. Oversoaking causes the reeds to warp, and eventually ruins the reed (this can be fixed with some sandpaper and a careful hand). They break down because the vibration eventually wears down all the fibers, as Meruhl said.

The whole point of plasticover reeds is to keep moisture out of the reed. Synthetics are basically just a non-cane reed, designed to last longer. However, they usually aren't as good as cane reeds. And next time use that little button up top that says "Search" :roll:

[colibri]

It's actually a good idea to soak reeds in saliva initially, because the fibers are too rigid and need to "break in".

The best and fastest break in procedure that I do is playing overtone exercises on them. Any stiff and stuffy unbalanced reeds can be fixed also with overtones. But they die a lot faster. 8)

[Steve J.]

Are you saying mold doesn't grow in saliva? Saliva is mostly water. What is the difference in effect to mold? I would think the added elements in saliva may possibly be more friendly to mold.

I don't follow that oversoaking causes a warp. New reeds are not warped. Soaking new reeds does not cause a warp. I notice only reeds that have gone through a wet/dry cycle warp. Soaking reeds that have gone through a wet/dry cycle long enough seems to eliminate the warp.

Meruhl's post seems quite logical and helpful. Assuming he is correct and wetting is needed to lubricate the fibers of the reed what is Plasticovers "whole point to keep moisture out of the reed"? If plasticovers do not need moisture why do other cane reeds need moisture?

In using the search button I found information that is not logical and I notice differing myths or facts. I would like to seperate fact from fiction. I think questions I posed can prompt some interesting fact finding discussion.

Vortex - if there are substantive answers to questions I raised already please point me in this direction and I apoligize for any redundancy.

[Cameron Wigmore]

I have been told by word of mouth, read in books and experienced myself the effect of playing overtones/altissimo on new reeds when breaking them in. Your reed will die fast. Also, if you play a brand new reed for more than a half hour it'll end up kicking the bucket way faster.

[Ritchie]

Oversoaking causes the reeds to warp I never ever experienced this. I prefer to wet my reeds in water because I think it is much more cofortable to put them tip down into a small glass than running around with a mouthful of reeds for ten to fifteen minutes. If a reed is warped after wetting it, I just put it back into the water and soak it five minutes longer. I never experienced a reed to be "water logged" or oversoaked (not even after permanent soaking, which I tried for a while).

The difference between soaking in water and soaking in saliva is only marginal. Yes, saliva contains some enzymes and they actually work as the first step in the digestion process, but the human body has some problems digesting fibres like reed.

It concurres with my experience that reeds last longer if you break in your reeds without playing altissimo and by playing them for a short time only (5-10 min) for the first couple of days.

[TetsuoK]

I apologize that I am bringing this up from waaaaay down below, but I was looking up some info on HMG reeds and found a reason to contribute:

Back 11 years ago when I was still getting lessons in highschool, my teacher suggested that I coat every new reed with skin oil. Now, I wasn't quite as oily as my dark skinned teacher, but every person that I know has oil between their cheeks and nose.

I have made reeds last as long as a year by oiling the reed before even considering soaking it.

I also never use water to soak my saxophone reeds (only bassooon reeds). I rely on saliva.

In general, eating before playing on a reed will break it down faster (and will make the horn and mouthpiece smell bad) as will drinking alcohol. I have seen beer mold transfer onto reeds, and the reed will not last much longer once it has the mold on it.

However, a quick dip in bacardi 151 after playing when you've been sick hasn't seemed to damage any of my reeds.

In general thoguh, the two things that I keep as routine:

Oil the reed wtih skin oil as soon as its purchased

If I like the reed - Don't eat or drink while playing.

[playitfunky]

Out of all topics on saxophones, reeds has got to be the one with the most conflicting information. I think the most important factor is playing a reed for no more then 10 minutes out of the box. Break them in slow and they will last longer. Also you have to manipulate reed strength, you just can't expect a reed to perform great right away. Breaking in reeds and setting aside good ones is a never ending chore for me, but I stick to the basics of breaking in a reed, and then using a reed rush to soften it. Not very often do i trim reeds, but i have done it to save a really good sounding reed and maybe get one more night out of it.

[SilverNeck20]

Has anyone tried soaking them in gasoline and lighting them on fire to break them in? :D

Unfortunately, as stated, there's no difintive answer here. Everyone has their own theory. Try to keem them clean. My problem is I never remember at the end of the night to do this. But when your walking in the door at 3-4AM, it's usually the last thing on my mind.
When mine stops working.............I throw it out and go on to the next.

[Steve J.]

Very cool...... this thread is as valid to me as it was three years ago. Thanks for resurrecting. When I first saw it this morning I wondered how someone was using my user name! - lol. Hell to get older.

I would like to seperate reed fact from fiction still. The myths seem endless.

I've done determined experimentation in the last few years after my original post and my personal conclusions debunk many tried and supposedly true practices. It is a revelation to me.

Take playitfunky's& Cammythe cat post for instance. I found no evidence that breaking in reeds slowly will make them last longer. I am in the camp of no more than 10 minutes playing on new reeds but not because I've proven this truth. - I now realize with reeds I am like the bald guy (Loch?)in "Lost" who deems it imperative to punch in a series of numbers in a computer every 108 minutes - or survival will be in question.

I have tested this break in slowly concept and found 100% exception to this 10 minute rule! The key is the sealing of the pores front and back of a cane reed - this does insure longevity. Reeds do change in the break in period mostly getting a little softer. It is so easy to just "press the button" and alternate new breaking in reeds at 10 minutes that I do it.......in case there is validity that I missed. I suspect that playitfunky and others are similiar victims. - especially since he (she) thinks it "the most important factor". No way this proved true for me. I suspect that if you don't seal the pores or polish the reed and you play long enough the fibers do get distorted. By limiting the playing time on a virgin reed - after a couple three wetting cycles it simply seals up a bit.

Tetsuok's post about the skin oil has validity only because he (she) is polishing the reed and physically sealing the pores. It is not "oiling" the reeds. The use of skin oil simply adds some lubricant to the physical movement better enabling the pore sealing. The oil part is a myth. Prove me wrong with better evidence please.

Tetsuok do you have evidence that the eating or drinking before playing is promoting mold? How much before can I eat? An hour? - Like the hour before swimming myth? I say B.S. as far as effecting reed only. You say drinking alcohol "before playing on a reed will break it down faster" but dipping the reed in alcohol has no effect for you. You extrapolate evidence of "beer mold" transfering and effecting your reeds. Is this what is truly scientifically happening? I have serious doubts. Its like saying "the world is flat - look there it is."

One of my most astounding revelations is still ongoing. I have been practicing on one single reed each instrument (clarinet, soprano, alto, tenor) for over two years - averaging about 2 hours a week each horn. They aren't performance quality reeds now or when I started. They do sound unusual - played out - missing any real harmonic color.
All these reeds have hit the point that in years past I would have discarded. I spend needed time working them to get them back to response shape (sound is shot). - At least every other week they become almost unplayable but amazingly I can rework them and NONE have hit the point of no return as far as full response. - Oh - and I practice altissimo regularly - definitely disproving (in my mind) the altissimo reed break down myth. I do find the reed back is warping more quickly as time goes on. This is the more frequent repair. They have gotten soft - but fixed by trimming and rebalancing tip and sides. I pepare for playing them by soaking in water mixed with a little hydrogen peroxide. All reeds are very discolored but to different degrees the worst being Tenor and gradually getting more toward normal according to reed size. I would never have guessed that these reeds are indeed playable.

The real reason this longevity experiment is such a revelation to me is that I truly think it is helping my sound! Something I could not have predicted but now makes real sense. When playing these reeds - my tone is not at optimum so I find myself, not justifyingly blaming the reed, but almost unconciously having more focus on trying to milk the sound I expect to be forthcoming. I notice a real difference in performance with real reeds. Altissimo timbre is noticeably easier to make even with rest of register. Tone shading or purposeful sound changing has become more a part of my musicality.

I liken practicing on these played out reeds as lifting weights in order to improve the football playing performance.

Anyway, thought I'd share, thanks for resurrecting what I think are still good questions (see my posts #1, #5) and I do hope for logic based comments.

[playitfunky]

I really feel that if you just break them in slow you will end up with great reeds that will last long enough. I'm no bamboo scientist or master of all that is sax so I can't give you reasons. But thats how I was taught, thats what I have always done. I don't soak them in anything special, wipe them off when im done, just stick them back in original reed case they came in. Am I missing out on something? I mean gross saliva coated reeds that stink like the inside of a pigs mouth are what work for me.

[Steve J.]

I really feel that if you just break them in slow you will end up with great reeds that will last long enough. I'm no bamboo scientist or master of all that is sax so I can't give you reasons. But thats how I was taught, thats what I have always done. .

Exactly my point. I do it also. You do it simply because you were told. It is exactly like the Loch character on "Lost" that was taught to punch in the computer code every 108 minutes. He was taught that if he doesn't it could be catastrophic! Or maybe its just baloney. He's afraid to not do it and its simple enough. So he continues with the unneeded action........ or is it unneeded?

You do it not knowing its validity, can't give reasons yet you claim it to be "the most important factor". Doesn't that demand to be questioned?

As long as I've done it this way - no real downside in continuing. I'm kind of caught in the habit even though I believe, based on trials, it has little to no merit if you seal pores.

Playitfunky - do you seal your reed pores by any other method? I found this is all that is needed and what truly is increasing longevity for me.

[Steve J.]

I I mean gross saliva coated reeds that stink like the inside of a pigs mouth are what work for me.

Oh - I was thinking your name was refering to something musical!...... (all in fun)

[playitfunky]

no i have never used any other substances to seal anything on my reeds. I just care for them like my instructer taught me many moons ago. I don't get caught to far up in reeditis or mouthpiecitits and feels most of the time when someone sounds like **** its because they stink. Truthfully my reeds last as long as they need to. I'm always breaking them in and putting them aside. I think it has alot more to do with the cane being cured enough etc. I'm not saying that reeds dont have pores, or that they cant be sealed, or that pores dont play some role in reed longevity. I am saying that i think breaking them in slowly works. Maybe it doesnt make them last longer per se, but it does make for a better sounding reed which is the main goal. Since when does it really matter how long the reed lasts as long as it gets you through some gigs or a playing situation you want to sound good at. I've talked to alot of pros around LA including Sanborn at a winery gig in temecula 4 yrs ago. He said that his reeds dont last much longer then a week or so and that he has a jar he keeps them in for humidity or something like that. Funny thing about sax playing is that theories are constantly changed and revised and thrownout etc. I think sax players are the most paranoid of all musicians when it comes to equipment, but thats what makes us special.

[Steve J.]

Anyone who is reliant on equipment can be obsessive, superstitious and paranoid about such. Sax players are nothing special in this regard. Athletes appear to be a rung up in my view.

[TetsuoK]

Tetsuok do you have evidence that the eating or drinking before playing is promoting mold? How much before can I eat? An hour? - Like the hour before swimming myth? I say B.S. as far as effecting reed only. You say drinking alcohol "before playing on a reed will break it down faster" but dipping the reed in alcohol has no effect for you. You extrapolate evidence of "beer mold" transfering and effecting your reeds. Is this what is truly scientifically happening? I have serious doubts. Its like saying "the world is flat - look there it is."


Unfortunately, I don't have any lab tested scientific evidence.

But if ever I'm going to a gig that there is beer, or i'm having beer during a practice, or I can still feel food particles in my mouth, I play on a set of reeds that I keep quarantined in a box seperate from my "clean" reeds.

Now When I stated that I dip them in Bacaradi 151, I don't dip them in guinness or Newcastle (Although, that might turn it into one hell of a tasty reed! ;) ). However if I'm drinking beer, it is ussually Tecate, Newcastle, or Guinness. And these reeds, I tend to get that slightly brownish-green mold to grow right on where my lower lip presses against the reed. - Which is funny, because i've never even really thought about doing a biopsy on the growth to see exactly WHAT it is, either. - Maybe if I get a chance in the near future, i'll check it out and post the results.

The reeds that get that mold growing in on them though, might end up breaking down their pores that I thoguht I had perfectly sealed because of the alcohol.

Who knows, we then begin to step into realms of pure stipulation alongside trial and error.

But thanks for that question though, I definitely will look into finding exactly where that mold (or growth?) is coming from and what it is exactly.

[Brendan Muse]

No, the brownish-green stuff is just gunk on the reed. Soak it in hydrogen peroxide or mouthwash (the flavorless brown kind) and then rub it a bit and it'll probably be gone.

Granted, you shouldn't eat before you play anyway, but that's more for the pads than anything else.

As to breaking reeds in being a myth, well I don't think it really matters. I do it, my reeds last longer, therefore it doesn't matter to me if I'm wasting my time. I have friends who go through eight or ten boxes a month. I went through two boxes last year. And it's not because they're playing more than I am, since there aren't any gigs to be had around here. But whatever the reason is, I'm still spending less money than they are, so I think I win.

[Steve J.]

I have friends who go through eight or ten boxes a month. I went through two boxes last year. And it's not because they're playing more than I am, since there aren't any gigs to be had around here. But whatever the reason is, I'm still spending less money than they are, so I think I win.

I have trouble believing this if you are saying the reeds are not lasting after playing. Even a 5 pack would mean an average of less than a reed per day! I would think the friends are simply more selective.

"As to breaking reeds in being a myth, well I don't think it really matters. "

I have said I agree with this. I do find slow reed break in to be a superstition. - Along with other apparently non-fact based reed notions.
I am not truly dictating an intervention. - Just submitting a realization.

I would be interested in facts. I would like to negate and stop my (and apparently shared) neurosis.

"I do it, my reeds last longer, therefore it doesn't matter to me if I'm wasting my time."

My point exactly - what real proof do you have that your reeds last longer? A neurotic attitude isn't it?

[Brendan Muse]

I have trouble believing this if you are saying the reeds are not lasting after playing. Even a 5 pack would mean an average of less than a reed per day! I would think the friends are simply more selective.
That's probably an exaggeration. But, in some cases, I notice a different box of reeds every band class (we have two or three a week), so I assume they either throw out a ton or they wear through reeds like crazy. Now, granted, they all use Vandorens, and I use Alexanders, and I know that I'm the only one who uses any kind of reed cycling schedule. But the point stands.

"As to breaking reeds in being a myth, well I don't think it really matters. "

I have said I agree with this. I do find slow reed break in to be a superstition. - Along with other apparently non-fact based reed notions.
I am not truly dictating an intervention. - Just submitting a realization.

I would be interested in facts. I would like to negate and stop my (and apparently shared) neurosis.

I take a pragmatic approach: since I've started with a break-in procedure, my reeds have lasted for a goodly amount of time. Not forever, by any means, but still plenty of time.

"I do it, my reeds last longer, therefore it doesn't matter to me if I'm wasting my time."

My point exactly - what real proof do you have that your reeds last longer? A neurotic attitude isn't it?
Okay, maybe longer was the wrong word, and I can chop off my hand for weakening the language later. But they still average six months to a year. That's pretty good, and with bari reeds cheap at $25 a box, I think I'm winning out.

[Ari]

I'm always astounded at the stories that sax players have to tell about reeds. One of these days I'm sure I'll see a fist fight break out between the water vs. saliva soakers or the break-in vs. not break in etc.

my 2cents is to remind you that any experiment you perform with 2 or 4 or 6 reeds is likely to be invalid. Remember these are pieces of cane, they are organic and have a vast amount of variability between them. If you pick two reeds out of the same box, and treat them exactly the same; chances are one of them will blow out and sound lousy many more days before the second one. Personal anecdotes relating to specific treatment of reeds are usually based on experience with one particularly memorable reed and not on carefully controlled studies. So we are stuck with all these myths.

Why doesn't somebody who is studying sax seriously in one of these degree programs let us know if there is actually any independant research on how we should best be treating reeds.:)

[TetsuoK]

Yes, in general, I have to agree, that all reeds lasting less than a month (individually) is pretty ridiculous.

Are they storing them properly?

I know people who buy a new pair of socks for every day they wear them, and thats just wasteful, ridiculous, and crazy, and I feel the same way about reeds.

[playitfunky]

I've heard alot of pros say they don't play many reeds for more then a week or so after they are broke in. It's all in how picky you are, and of course how many reeds you can buy.

[TetsuoK]

No, the brownish-green stuff is just gunk on the reed.

I have to say, I love the scientific vocabulary on this explanation. I hope you can admit how hilarious it sounds when brought into this theoretical discussion.


haven't had a chance to manage a biopsy on my reeds yet, but I don't think the results will come up as "gunk" just yet.

[SilverNeck20]

Why doesn't somebody who is studying sax seriously in one of these degree programs let us know if there is actually any independant research on how we should best be treating reeds.:)

And there will still be disagreements on the subject.