theory question

[mbs]

I'm working on a Coleman Hawkins piece and i want to try to understand the chords. I know what basic chord symbols mean, ie Dmaj7(dom7th chord in D maj), etc. I came across a few that I'm not sure about. Here they are:

1. D6- does D mean maj, min, or what? what about the 6?

2. Abm7b5- i thought this meant Ab minor scale where the 5th degree is flattened. Is that right?

Thanks for any help!!

[BlueNote]

2. Abm7b5- i thought this meant Ab minor scale where the 5th degree is flattened. Is that right?

Thanks for any help!!

Yes, you are correct.

[mbs]

what about the D6? What does the 6 mean?

[Kareeser]

First Inversion, I believe.

That is:
D F A, but the F is the root note of the chord.

[Rex]

Whoa -- hold on!

0. Dmaj7 does not mean V7 in D major -- it means a D (major) chord with a major 7th above the D (root) added = D-F#-A-C#;
1. D6 does not mean first inversion of D (major) -- it means a D (major) chord with a (major) 6th above the D (root) added = D-F#-A-B;
2. Abm7b5 is not a scale -- it's an altered form of the Abm7 chord ("Ab minor seventh") that contains the Ab minor chord plus a minor 7th above the Ab (root) added = Ab-Cb-Eb-Gb, however Eb being the 5th above the root it's flattened, so that Abm7b5 = Ab-Cb-Ebb-Gb. This may be more easily spelled enharmonically = Ab-B-D-Gb, if just to understand the Cb and Ebb.

[gary]

Whoa -- hold on!
LOL. Good on ye, Rex.

Regarding inversions, in Figured Bass a "6" under the bass note tells you that bass note is in the first inversion of the chord implied above it. Likewise, "6-4" is a second inversion, etc. These numbers are not found above the music as part of a chord symbol, but (usually) in the bass clef as part of figured-bass inversion notation. Two different animals.

Also, all min7(b5) chords are not the same and neither is the accompaning scale necessarily the same simply because the chord is a min7(b5). When one sees, in major tonality, min7 one usually thinks ii7 (or dorian mode) but it could also be a vi7 (or aeolian mode). Likewise, a min7(b5) can be a chord based on the seventh degree of a major scale or the second degree of a minor tonality.

[Rex]

Gary,

I'm sure you are coming from a scales/modes/improvisation perspective when you say that "all min7(b5) chords are not the same"? I'm also pretty sure no figured bass/continuo part was present in the Coleman Hawkings number mbs is talking about! :wink: Chord symbols do represent chords, which are triads plus any added intervals (indicated by numbers, though some are implied and others are altered) above the root (indicated by the letter name of the chord). In that context, all min7(b5) chords are the same -- they contain exactly the same intervals, regardless of whether they fit the ii, iii or vi triad. Notice that the 7th above any of these is still a minor 7th, and these 3 are all just plain old minor chords (plus the minor 7th and the alteration of the b5). You are right though, that they are not functionally the same, harmonically. You are also right that they do not span the same relative set of "scale" intervals, such that in one popular improvisation technique the same scales/modes cannot be equally applied to accompany each ii, iii or vi chord.

[Roger Aldridge]

D6 = D, F#, A, B

[Rex]

Sorry if I seem to have belabored the point (above) :roll: . Many just starting out these days just look at the chord symbols and ask "what scale do I play with that?" Wrong concept. Even within a narrow style where this might apply with some effectiveness, it can lead to a bland, shapeless "bag of notes". You get a tonal color (that goes with the chord), but not much else interesting. God forbid anyone would actually outline a chord... :shock:

[gary]

How's this then?:

There are actually two min7(b5) scales which accompany the chords: the locrian mode and the so-called half-diminished mode. The only difference is that the half-diminished mode has a full step between the first and second notes of the mode while the Locrian has a half-step.

The half-diminished mode is actually a mode based on the sixth degree of the melodic minor scale. So a half-diminished mode on “D” would use the same notes as the “F” melodic minor scale. It seems much jazz theory is based on the melodic minor mode.

Actually, in minor the iimin7(b5) chord comes from the natural or harmonic minor modes which preceed the resolution in a minor ii-v-i progression, so one could rightly also think of playing the second mode of it’s parent minor scale on the iimin7(b5) chord in such a cadence, (which is the same as the locrian mode); just two ways of thinking of the same thing.

Some prefer the half-diminished mode instead of the locrian anytime there is a min7(b5) chord, regardless of function, because when you make a chord extension from the locrian, B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B (B-D-F-A-C) the C is dissonant, whereas when you use stack a chord from the half-diminished mode B-C#-D-E-F-G-A-B (B-D-F-A-C#), the C# is not as harsh…whatever.

vii7(b5) in the key of C major (locrian mode) = B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B
iimin7(b5) in the key of C minor:
Locrian = D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D
(second mode = D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D)
half-diminished mode = D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D

Rex - agreed that a chord is a chord is a chord (ie is an A min the vi in Cmajor, the ii in G major or whatever). But the most natural scales that accompany the chords are not the same, i.e. the C maj (ionian) scale on the C chord in C vs the F lydian scale on a F major (IV) chord in C. Both chords are major but two different modes are more appropriate for the two chords, not just one mode. But I'm sure you know that. My point being for some other readers that the accompanying scale to a chord depends on the function of that chord in its harmonic context and just not on the chord type itself.

Regarding the overuse of the chord/scale method, no argument here, as many of my other posts support, particularly regarding internalizing the style of music so that the melodic lines come naturally and not theoretically contrived.

[Rex]

Gary --

That's cool. Just a minor question here and there, but I think we've already agreed about functional use of chords and different scales/modes depending upon the degree of the chord root. There does seem to be a great deal of variation from, and extension of common practice theory in jazz theory -- in which I am certainly not an expert. One thing I observe is that terms for chords/intervals/harmony are borrowed to name and describe, or re-name and re-describe, scales and/or modes used in jazz (ex.: "dominant scale", "minor 7th scale", "diminished scale", "augmented scale"). Also, the expanded (generalized) use of the term "mode". I had to re-read your last post a few times, but I think I have been able to absorb all of it. A lot of stuff I've read about but haven't been able to exert the brain power on, or put in the shed time to actually put into practice.

* I think we agree that scales and/or modes are not equivalent to chords? You are describing scales/modes that "fit" or which can be used to derive each chord type. Perhaps we are just talking our way around the differences between tonal/harmonic (i.e. I, ii, IV, V etc. [and variations] chord functions in C Major, for example) and modal approaches to understanding melody and its tonal context?
* The notation with roman numerals and the "min" and "(b5)" notations for these ii, vi and vii chords looks a little different to me, as they are already either minor or, in the case of the vii, diminished in your examples -- BUT of course these notations are necessary when chord letter names (e.g. Bmin7(b5) or B half dim. 7) are used.