What's that strange key on TTs, Aristocrats, and some others

[Gaijin-san]

What's that strange key down between the lower right hand keys? Almost looks like a RH bis key. It's not the F# trill key because you can see the F# trill in the pictures. See:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/buescher/true_tone/tenor/silver/197xxx_vs.jpg

There is one pearled key down there and one non-pearled key (the F# trill)



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[mostly alto guy]

The pearled key between F and E is a G# trill. Play G and wiggle this one with either F or E finger. The beauty of this key is two-fold. First, it's way easier to trill with a more powerful finger than a pinky, so you can get a nicer and more even G-G# trill. Second is that on most horns that have it, this key positively lifts the G# pad, making it a nice way to unstick it if that ever happens.

This key pretty much disappears after about 1950-52 on French-made horns, a bit earlier on American ones. But I could be wrong. Other posters could clarify those dates.

[paulwl]

Clarification you want, clarification you'll get... :wink:

This tenor is too early to have the trill key that changes G to G# when pressed. This is the old type that only trills to G - G# has to already be down for it to work.

The newer type key came in about 1931, on the first Conn 6Ms, and about 1934 for the 10M and Aristocrats.

I forget when G# trill was dropped altogether, but early 50s sounds about right.

[Hornlip]

I've got a '53 6M alto that's got the G# trill. I don't think Conn dropped it until nickel-plated keys became standard on the 6M & 10M, which was a year or two later.

I know the Buffet's "Dynaction" sax had the G# key, and that the "Super Dynaction", introduced in the late 50's, dropped it.

Dang. How do I know that? If only I had as much talent as I do knowledge about sax trivia!! :?

[Bootman]

It can be a very useful key for the G/ G# trill although I don't use it very often.

[Gaijin-san]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses so quickly! paulwl, I'm sorry, but your post was actually the most unclear... what do you mean it doesn't trill to G#? What do you suggest it trills to?

[MusicMedic]

An answer in Paul's absence:
(just to see if I can do it)

There are two types of G# trill keys on Buechers that work different ways. Both trill from G->G# but....

1. The kind that opens the G# Pad. This is the type you don't have. You play G and press the Trill key. It opens the G# pad and does the same thing as you pressing the G# key. So, your LH is playing G and your right hand is making a G# sound with the trill key. This type trills to G# because you press it and G# happens.

2. The kind that CLOSES the G# pad. This you DO have. With that one, you play G# (not G) and press the G# pad closed with that pearl. So, your LH is playing G# and the funky RH pearl makes it a Gnat. This type actually trills to G(nat) because you press it and a G(nat) happens...

Clear as mud. :?

[Gaijin-san]

No, that was clear as the Cleveland air... oh, no wait, that's not very clear is it?

Anyway, that was a perfect explanation, I understand it now. :)

[paulwl]

My humble apologies for causing confusion Mr. Non-Japanese Person.

What I meant to say about the "old type" G# trill key was that it will only trill TO G FROM G#. If you plan to use it on a trill STARTING on G, you must have the presence of mind to press BOTH the trill and LH G# plate down. This is a wee bit counter-intuitive to those of us who understand that G# must (usually) CLOSE to play G.

You want to hear me at my most messed-up, ask me about my Albert clarinet when it gets here.

[spiderjames]

Speaking of xtra keys. My york tenor has 5 keys for the right hand, F,E,D the G# trill and a 5th key below the D key that is just about impossible to reach. Anyone know what this is for? I have never finished repadding this horn so I can't play it to tell what note(s) this might produce.

[morgan]

Hey, Paul, how about your Albert clarinet!

[Dave Dolson]

Paulwl: I played a trad-jazz festival last weekend and ran into Peiter Meijers who plays reeds for High Sierra Jazz Band. He's a fiend on Albert clarinet and had a new German-brand Albert System (didn't get the brand name). The clarinetist in our band also plays Albert (sounds like a mixture of Dodds, Bechet, and Lewis -extremely gifted player), so they immediately tried each other's horns. Our guy has an 1887 Buffet Albert.

Anyway, I also tried the new Albert - found it a bit stuffy but thye said it may be the mouthpiece set-up I had (which works nicely on my Buffet Boehm). Anyway, they launched into a hi-speed harmonized chorus of CLARINET POLKA and I just put my clarinet down and walked away. Two fiends going at each other on Albert clarinets - quite a treat. Let us know about yours! DAVE

[morgan]

I have a Turkish clarinet in "G" that is Albert; and a nineteenth century Albert bass clar with a monstrous big sonorous voice. But I haven't practiced them enough-- I'm pathetic on them.

[paulwl]

Someone asked about my Albert. ("Don't ask," I almost said. But here goes...)

It's a 1922 Conn, very nicely restored and cleaned up, with white leather pads. Has a nice sound over all, but there are just too many flaws in venting and intonation, and the necessary positioning of the right hand is just too uncomfortable. Too often I find myself in a corner where a fingering is out of tune or stuffy and there is no workable alternate fingering. Even with years of experience getting around on vintage instruments, it's just no fun to play - especially since I don't notice much tonal difference from Boehm system.

[Pinnman]

I only joined yesterday, but find all this really fascinating! Thanks to everybody who contributes.

A small contribution to this debate.

The newer type of G/G# trill key was introduced by Buescher on Aristocrats, so 1934 sounds right to me. To my mind it is a pain because you have to press this key to trill with the LH little finger - hard work in my book - rather than depress the LH G# and then trill with the RH.

Buescher dropped the key on the Big B version around 1940/1.

I have a Dolnet Royal Jazz alto from about 1955 (currently up for sale on Ebay, folks!) which still has this feature AND a microtuner on the neck AND a forked Eb key PLUS additional RH D trill (I think) and LH F# (I think) palm key. Amazing horn; it is just so different. As I am primarily a tenor player, I do not want to take the time to adjust my technique to suit; hence the sale

My recollection is that the forked Eb key was dropped by Buescher when the Aristocrat was introduced. (Paul will probably be able to confirm this as the owner of a New Aristocrat.) A shame; it's a feature I rather like .............

Barry.




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[morgan]

The Pierret Super Artiste has the kind of G# trill key that raises a G to a G#. Other than that this looks like a 50s or even 60s horn -- I guess the French kept that tradition alive later than anyone else.

[paulwl]

My recollection is that the forked Eb key was dropped by Buescher when the Aristocrat was introduced. (Paul will probably be able to confirm this as the owner of a New Aristocrat.)
You're right. My 266k New Crat alto of 1933 has fork Eb; my 274k Crat of 1935 does not. Tenors may differ – anyone have an early left bell tenor? Mine's a 291k, no fork key.

I don't really use this key – the Eb can be too stuffy – but I like to have it working and not disabled. I suspect it helps the E, F and F# vent a little better. (Interesting that Conn kept the fork key on the first few thousand Transitional 6Ms, even though the leverage on pinkie Eb was so much improved that trilling was a snap.)