Flute Upgrade for Doubling/Teaching/Secondary on Master's

[GenericGuy]

For the last four years I've been playing on a ratty (worn out pads, 1/3rd of the nickel plating is worn off) Artley flute that I bought used at a yard sale for $20. The flute did its job, served as a clunker for teaching woodwinds and doubling on big band tunes. But, the other day a student brought her flute for working on doubling... I pulled my flute out and quickly realized it is on its last leg.

Since my cheap Artley is not worth overhauling I figure it's time to upgrade to a much nicer instrument. A former teacher of mine used to let me borrow his Haynes (1950's, plateau, offset G) and it was a great flute. I play tested a few flutes at the local music store (Sonare 5000, 6000 and Armstong of the same price range) and the only one I'd consider was the 6000. The mechanics of the 5000 didn't feel as soft and natural, and the Armstrong was just too heavy and didn't speak as easily. They didn't carry any plateau flutes except for their most inexpensive beginner instruments.

I've read the debate on the open/closed hole flutes, so there is no need to go in to that again. When I inquired about intermediate plateau flutes the store manager told me they don't sell so they are not stocked, and I should just have a good open hole flute corked/plugged.

Another aspect I always look at when making any major purchase is resale value. I know the Sonare have been selling extremely well, and I was surprised to see none on eBay. So, I'm assuming that means people are liking them and not selling them / outgrowing them quickly. It also appears that there are plateau Haynes out there in the same price range that due to their age I assume will at least retain their value if taken good care of.

I don't do a huge amount of doubling, but if I'm going to get an instrument I want something that will last me the rest of my playing career. Plus I'm returning to university this fall to work on a master's in performance and do expect to take doubling lessons on flute and clarinet.

So, now I turn to the wisdom of the SotW flute gurus. I'm looking at a top-end price range of $1500US. Should I hold out for that right "golden years" Haynes, seriously look at the Sonare 6000 and plug most of the holes, or should I be looking at other brands or even $200-500 student flutes?

Jason H.

[gary]

Jason, Yamaha has a wide variety of options and selections in that price range. Frankly, I was surprised when I was talking recently with a friend of mine who plays flute in the Philadelphia Orchestra and he recommended looking into Yamahas. I would've thought he might've said Muramatsu or something like that, but, no, he said Yamaha.

[GenericGuy]

Well, Yamaha is worth investigating some more. I really hate the business that is the Yamaha dealer in Calgary, so I wouldn't give them my business and would snag a used one off eBay. Seems to be plenty of YFL481 II out there in the extremely reasonable price range. Also the 584 is in my ballpark... although a non-sterling body is a deterrent. But, head joint is the important part, right?

[bruce bailey]

I would skip the Sonare. There are a lot of used ones for sale and it is a nice head on a cheap body! Look for a Yamaha 400 series which should be (used) around $700 and don't overlook the closed hole models as they are a dog on the market and play every bit as well as the opens. Heavy wall silver flutes play darker and are more doubler friendly. I sell the DeFord (new type) and if you have a dealer near you, you may want to try them as they are durable and not too expensive. I think WW&BW have them now. They are like the old Haynes in construction with a new scale. Another sleeper would be a Yamaha 581H which was quite popular and is now called the 674H or similar. They tend to go for about $1,200 used and have nice keywork and gold springs.

[GenericGuy]

Thank you Bruce. Very helpful information.

As a doubler I definitely lean towards a closed hole flute. I sound better, and it's easier to play. Just wish they weren't so looked down upon in North America as the "student" instrument.

[gary]

Just wish they (closed hole fluted) weren't so looked down upon.... Jason - don't sweat the small stuff. If you're using the flute on non-classical gigs do you think anyone in the audience is going to even notice the holes or have an opinion on that? They probably can't even see that far, LOL.

If you think it might be a problem with a teacher when you return to school, just ask the teacher now before you get another flute. It's perfectly possible the teacher has no opinion and that'll remove any doubt you might have.

I now play a B foot, open hole flute with silver head joint, but I played a student model, C foot, closed hole Yamaha as a doubler at North Texas and my teachers there (and later as USMississippi) never said a word.

[sebastian17]

Just wish they weren't so looked down upon in North America as the "student" instrument.

It's interesting to know that, very often, in the whole wide world, closed holes were sometimes refered as 'American Keys', and Open holes were refered as 'French Keys'. But at the same time in the USA or N.America, people looked down at Closed hole flute - their own pride of invention.

[GenericGuy]

Bruce,
I did some research and the Yamaha 581H looks like it would be an extremely wise choice. Interesting marketing choice to bump the model up to the 600 series, but introduce a new 500 series without a sterling body. That's business... now the trick is going to be finding a good used one with an off-set G.

[gary]

It's interesting to know that, very often, in the whole wide world, closed holes were sometimes refered as 'American Keys'...
Well that is interesting. I have never heard/read of closed hole flutes called "American". Is that universal?

[DaveKessler]

Chiming in on the original question:

I love the Sonare flutes (hence the reason I sell them). The 6000 is probably my overall favorite dollar per dollar flute that we have come across. The "feel" difference you noticed between the 5000 and 6000 is most likely the spring setup. The 6000 uses the gold wire springs where the 5000 is steel.

Now, the new Amadeus by Haynes flutes are coming out now and the initial reports that I have heard from other dealer friends of mine have been that they are a bit better then the Sonare, but are American made and in the same price range as Sonare. So we have a few sample Amadeus flutes en route to us to try.

Compared to the Yamaha, I like the headjoint on the Sonare better. The Yamahas are good but we think the Sonare plays better (hence the reason we dont sell the Yamaha flutes). This is of course personal preferrence and Yamaha does make Very good flutes.

Just thought I would post my opinion.

[DaveKessler]

edited... sorry, accidental double post.

[GenericGuy]

Thanks for the opinion Dave. I actually just got back from the music store who carries the Yamaha line. By luck they had recieved a 581H on commission for resale, and a also had the Sonare 6000. So, I did a bunch of side-by-side testing with the 481 II, 581H, 684H, and Sonare 6000.

The 481 II, was easy to play but the sound lacked character. It was focused and without depth.

The 684H was twice the price as as the 481 II (plus the clerk said I'd have to pay a premium if I wanted to order one with an offset G). It had a much richer timber that was more responsive.

The 581H didn't have the cut engraved on the headjoint, but it played similar enough to the 684H that I assume it was the EC cut. The flute was well used, and the springs felt a little weak. I think it needed a little adjusting, but the sound and construction was almost identical to the 684H.

The Sonare 6000 was between the 481 II and 684H for timbre. Between the 481 II and Sonare 6000 I'd go with the Sonare based on the headjoint alone. But the 684H sound/feel was in a totally different league. With the 581H being so similar to the 684H it is definitely worth searching for a good one. The one at the store was in-line, needed adjusting, and overpriced (they were asking only a few hundred less than the new 684H.)

New dollar-for-dollar the Sonare 6000 is the winner. If they put gold springs on the 5000, give it a name like 5005 series, charged $100 more for the better springs/feel I would have probably bought one on the spot. But, once I put a used 581H in the mix at the price new 481 II or Sonare 6000 it becomes the clear winner.

Thanks for all the help guys. Time to clear out some of the mouthpiece drawer on eBay to fund a good 581H with an offset G and EC headjoint.

[bruce bailey]

Only the 581H at the end had the EC head which I feel is one of the better heads out there, so try to find that combo. I don't see many on ebay and it is too bad you aren't in an area that doesn't like Yamahas. The last 581H I sold sat here for 6 months and I sold it for $1,000 like new! That Amadeus flute will be pretty much an Elkhart body (DeFord type) with an Asian keywork similar to Jupiter. I can't comment too much as my headmaker is making their heads and they should be a bit richer sounding than the Sonare but not as easy blowing or as responsive. BTW, that EC Yamaha head has quite a bit of dropoff on the front side and a rather high riser which is a doublers' delight! As far as the Sonare springs, I don't think you will see too much difference with the gold springs or the french arms. The nickel bodies will give you a better low register but not the ring in the middle and uppersthat silver provides.

[Tully]

I don't think I've ever played a 581, but I definitely would not recommend the 681. In that price range, I would recommend a Miyazawa or Muramatsu, but it sounds like you are looking for something for a lot less, anyway.

By the way, I wouldn't recommend a Haynes, either, because they are not as good mechanically as other comparable flutes. They were excellent a few decades ago, but they haven't improved a whole lot since then.

[sebastian17]

Dear Bruce and Dave and others,

Thank you all for your continous valuable information on different flutes and headjoints. Very helpful! You are all very experienced with different flutes and heads, I envy you guys. I have owned Lazer (bad), Jupiter 511 (good body, lame head), Yamaha F100 (for students, easy blowing), Yamaha 371 (OK head, easy blowing, but not much tone characters in it), Yamaha 313 (almost 100% same head as 371, but weak high registers), Altus 907 with 95.8% silver head (sweet tone, but a little hard to control, it is me, it takes a lot of energy to master it), Sonare 5500 (Powell Boston Signature is way too easy to blow, too much overtones & projection & hiss, blowing angle is too shallow, too much dropoff, too little lip-plate, thin tone; Too loud - that is because the EH is rectangle-shaped, overcut and even the undercut are rectanglar cut, guess Powell really wanted it to be VERY LOUD).

All of my heads are with short risers, I have always wondered how is the high EC riser affecting the tone and sound. I couldn't find 571 in my country. Could you please describe more what is it like with EC high riser? Many thanks!!!

[sebastian17]

I am stereotyping here again, but I believe all Japanese flutes are going for sweet tones and expression, American flutes are for volume, dynamics, overtones and projection.

[sebastian17]

BTW, what does Signature mean in Boston Signature, I couldn't find any signature on the head. Why is Boston better than Boston Signature? TIA.

[sebastian17]

Can anyone please tell me is my newly bought Sonare 5500 equiped with Gold Springs? Because I feel the keys are really very light!!!

My Yamaha 313 were with white gold springs, very light and smooth touching. Same feel on Sonare 5500.

I bought my Sonare 5500 $1000 only, inline G, french arms, open hole, B-foot, but no split E (I remember once some American said here on this forum 'we Americans don't need split E', LOL).

[Gordon (NZ)]

I don't think gold springs make a scrap of difference when compared with well-designed, good-alloy stainless steel springs.

The action of a quality oboe is far lighter that of a flute, yet all the springs I have ever seen are simply steel. No gold.

There is a lot of marketing BS attached to flutes and the materials from which they are made.

[Bootman]

Dont forget to check out Altus and the upper end dimedici models. A good body and an after market head joint by one of the pro makers is yet another option worth looking into.

[bruce bailey]

I use both gold and copper-berylium springs and I have to look at the build sheet to tell the difference!
BTW- there was a nice 581H with an EC head on ebay with a buy it now of about $1,250.

[GenericGuy]

BTW- there was a nice 581H with an EC head on ebay with a buy it now of about $1,250.

That seems to be around to the going rate give or take $100. None of the recent auctions have been with an offset G. For comfort reasons I consider offset G a huge benefit. However, I'm sure after playing inline G for a week it would stop bugging me. It also sounds like finding a later 581H (or current 684H) with the EC headjoint is worth it..

I've only raised about two-fifths of the funds so far. I'm not a fan of credit -- if I can't afford it than I don't need it. Plus, I'm not in dire need of the new flute. This has given me a great excuse to go through all my boxes of stuff and clear them out on eBay.

Personally I don't care about the springs beyond having an instrument that is comfortable to play and feels right in the hands. But in the case of the Sonare 5000 and 6000 there is definitely a different feel. I don't doubt that the manufacturer is well aware of this difference and able to make them feel the same if they wanted to. But it is to their advantage to sell you the more expensive model for a premium to get that "professional" feel.

[bruce bailey]

If the 6000 has the french arms, that may make it feel different, but not much. As far as the offset, you will find only about 10% that way and with an inline, you can just use a plug in the G. I have a few people who use a plug in an offset!

[Gordon (NZ)]

In-line is rare in New Zealand, and, I am told, in many other countries. It seems to be an irrational fixation largely limited to USA.

The mounting of the keys is far more solid with off-set, and this obviously improves mechanical reliability.

[Gordon (NZ)]

[quote="GenericGuy.....Personally I don't care about the springs beyond having an instrument that is comfortable to play and feels right in the hands. But in the case of the Sonare 5000 and 6000 there is definitely a different feel. I don't doubt that the manufacturer is well aware of this difference and able to make them feel the same if they wanted to. But it is to their advantage to sell you the more expensive model for a premium to get that "professional" feel.[/quote]

I think there is a lot of truth in that. With flutes I think there is an enormous amount of marketing conning going on.

[bruce bailey]

Most flute players are quite anal about the lightness of the keys. We sax players are happy if the key goes up and down! I would like to see a flute player need to deal with a Bari for once.
The best part about the offset (other than the obvious feel) is that on inlines the Bb wants to drag since it is riding with the A and double G keys whereas on an offset it only needs to ride with the A.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Quite right.
And if there is a split E as WELL as the in-line keys, the drag can easily be so much that the Bb key jams completely!

[GenericGuy]

It's been quite a few months, but the right flute finally came along.

I ended up purchasing a YFL-561HHV, same as the YFL-674HHV with an off-set G and heavy walls. Also managed to get it with an EC headjoint. I'm having it shipped to a friend in the US who's holding on to it until I get down there for grad school to save me some tax/duty. It was $1295 after shipping and looks to be in excellent condition.

Thanks for all the past advice and guidance on my flute hunt.

Jason

[hanklehrer]

Bruce,

"Most flute players are quite anal about the lightness of the keys. We sax players are happy if the key goes up and down! I would like to see a flute player need to deal with a Bari for once."

That is too funny. LOL. I have a very good friend who's wife had her Haynes overhauled and it took two trips back to Columbus to get the right "lightness." Just give me the old "up and down" and I'll be happy. If she has tried a bari, then she needs to wrestle with a bassoon. There are some laughs.

Hank