finger gymnastics

[bluesax]

Hi,
i am looking for some kind of finger gymnastics for saxophonists to make my fingers stronger and more independent of each other. Did anybody hear of such a routine?

[Lyle]

Many hours of saxophone playing? :)

[Razzy]

Speed, not strength, is what you want. Except maybe in the right thumb for a soprano player. To gain speed, practice REALLY slowly, all your scales and chromatics and everything, making sure that you lift the fingers as little as possible and move them as quickly as possible. Then speed will come with time and practice. The Klose 25 daily exercises for saxophone are good for developing speed as well.

[Razzy]

And, just for an analogy, did you ever watch a true martial artist train? For example a student of karate. A classical dojo will have karate students practice "katas", slow motions that are basically all of the moves and positions involved, slowed down to a ridiculous degree. These exercises are designed to build perfect form, which is necessary before SPEED can be undertaken.

[colibri]

Larry Teal's "Daily Studies for the Improvement of the Saxophone Technique" is also a good book for finger technique. Plus, you get to play the exercises in all keys, so you can be more fluent with the horn.

[Toni Linder]

Speed comes from precision, not from trying hard or fast.

Besides, as we say in French, "les doigts roulent sur le son": fingers drive on sound!

[bluesax]

In this context, what is fast, and what is slow? Can it be figured as bpm or is it dependent on the technic capabilities of the player?

[EFlat]

Yes would someone be kind enough to offer what "ridiculously slow" is...
and for how long..... should I practice everything ultra slow..always? how do you find out if you have developed speed and dexterity?

Eflat

[averageschmoe]

yes, practice everything slowly, dexterity comes from extreme economy of movement. how do you know you have speed and dexterity? when you play it up tempo and it feels slow.

[Billy The Fish]

Yes would someone be kind enough to offer what "ridiculously slow" is...
Eflat

I am only a relative newcomer to sax myself, but this is the approach I used for piano and guitar.....and now use for sax. I play all new material that is supposed to be at 150bpm or less at half speed. This basically means nothing is played at more than 75bpm to start with (and usually less - between 40bpm and 65bpm for most Standards). If the normal tempo is above 150bpm, I start at my "starter" ceiling, i.e. 75bpm.

I play at my "starter" tempo until I have the rhythm, notes and articulation exactly right. If I struggle with any elements I slow the tempo even more ! I then gradually increase the tempo (+4 bpm each time) always making sure I have "perfect form", as Razzy put it, before I move on.

This approach may sound slow going (forgive the pun) but it isn't. You will get to tempo far faster playing a series of correct iterations that you are entirely comfortable with and where you are in full control, rather than hundreds of sloppy, poorly articulated, out of control attempts at full tempo. It is a much faster way of building confidence, technique and finger memory - and it makes sense. Practicing things correctly will improve your technique. Repeating mistakes at tempo again and again and again only builds mistakes into your finger memory !

Billy The Fish

[Benny]

I totally agree with the playing slowly thing. for me it was the most beneficial thing I've ever done. Playing fast is not about about developing speed, it it about developing control and this means developing the ability to subdivide and hear where the note goes so you KNOW where it fits. Practising scales in crotchets helps this. Start at 60, then when you've really nailed it, slow it down, don't speed up. Each time you slow down, make it by a small amount (say 4-5 bpm) until you're at crotchet equals 30. This is seriously hard to do - playing slurred and perfectly in time. The amount of control it takes is huge. Always remember that your finger takes the same time to change note at this tempo as it does about 280, but faster speeds don't require the finite control that very slow ones do.
happy practising.[/quote]

[Keith Ridenhour]

I had a teacher get me to do major scales, one octave with the met set at 60 BPM. Play the scale first in quarter notes, then eighths, then trips, then 16ths. The idea is to be as relaxed playing the 16ths as the quarter notes. And as a previous poster said , It takes a great deal of control at the slower speeds to close all the pads at exactly the same time for a smooth transition. Also interval training is great. Play slow Minor 3rds or 4ths up and down the horn, only increasing the met when you can do it perfectly. K

[Sue Terry]

Here are two methods for improving finger dexterity:
1. With your arms relaxed (as on the arms of a chair or hanging at your sides) do the following: Slowly move the thumb toward the palm, without letting any other fingers move. Repeat with the other fingers, one at a time, SLOWLY.
Repeat the exercise with the other hand.

This exercise can be done almost anywhere--on a bus, waiting in line at the bank, etc.

2. A variation (done without using thumb): Hold index/and middle finger together, and pinky/ring finger together. The space between will form a "V" shape. Next, hold the middle/ring fingers together and the pinky and index fingers separated. The spaces will form two "V's". Start alternating these two positions, slowly at first. When you have more practice at it you can start increasing the speed.

3. Another great exercise is done with Chinese metal balls that fit in one hand. They come in different sizes to fit your hand size. Get them in your local Chinatown for under 10 dollars. Roll both balls in one hand. After you get accustomed to the feeling, try to roll the balls without letting them touch each other. This exercise has the added benefit of massaging acupuncture points in your hand.

Please do the above exercises with as little tension as possible. Try to stay relaxed.

[Rick]

"158 Excerises for the Saxopone" Signud Rascher

[Martin]

You want speed?

Practise all your scales and excercises on a Baritone.
Much more metal to move around and the lag really gives you a new perspective on timing the note with your fingers.

Plus, the sound is just amazing.

I have a teacher who has shown me just how much can be done with the king of saxes......

If you can play a bari fast, the rest is easy.

[tubbycub]

The finger busters section in Eric Mariental's "Comprehensive Jazz Studies and Exercises" book might seem appropriate for finger acrobatics.

[alsdiego]

Benny wrote:

Practising scales in crotchets helps this.

What is a crochet? I always that's how little old ladies made sweaters :oops:


Al

[Razzy]

Yes, "ridiculously slow" is dependent on the technique and current abilities of the player, not tempo on a metronome. For a subjective definition (all that can really be offered for a subjective term), it is the speed at which right fingerings are not the issue, and you are very aware of the actions of your fingers between every pair of notes. You should be able to feel if something is off, if there is a sloppy connection, and be able to address it immediately. Your fingers should still move quickly, very quickly, but not rapidly. This is a common error.

For example, play a C major scale starting on low C. If you are playing it very fast, you will lift the right pinky very quickly to go to D. If you are playing it very slow, you will STILL lift the right pinky very quickly to go to D. Keep this in mind. There is a tendency to let the fingers fly up off the keys while playing fast. This should not occur. Slow it down to see this tendency and to fix it. You are working toward an economy of movement that involves very fast, very small, precise motions. This should be undertaken slowly.

A good analogy here is the motions of our body as humans. When we are young, we are awkard, and have not yet learned to walk. As small children, we still like to move around a lot and are a bit clumsy. Over time we become more steady as our body's muscles learn to keep it standing or in some sort of position by using very small, precise, quick muscle contractions. These motions are so small that we now think we are simply being "still" and notice no movement.

[bluesax]

I often have noticed no finger motion at all when i looked at a sax players fingers, when they played some kind of Bop, even if i was sitting only some meters away, whereas when i looked at a funky players fingers like Maceo Parker's i could see finger motion even 30 meters away from him.
It is my impression, that if you want to act in a strong rhythm like funk as a sax player you have to adapt the rhythm in a more expressive finger motion.

[Razzy]

I think the extra finger motion is more an effect than a cause ^_^ It's totally unnecessary, but yes there is a tendancy toward it when playing more rhythmically sparse music (such as funk or blues). I was playing some funk earlier today, and I notice this in my own technique. Whereas in bop or swing music, which is more rhythmically flowing and tonally diverse, I use my more classical smooth technique, which is how I always practice.

[colibri]

Moving your fingers way up is just bad technique. It doesn't matter who the sax player is or what he plays.

[alsdiego]

On the "how slow is slow?" issue, here's another way to think about it: our speed has a "natural" tempo based on genetics and practice. Think about it as analagous to typing. When you type, you settle in at your "natural speed", whatever that might be. Then, to improve your typing speed, you type at your "natural speed" while concentrating on the material. Pretty soon your typing speed increases, and your error rate stays within an acceptable range.

Sax technique is analagous to this. One way to find your natural speed is to first warm up, then play some scales/arpeggios in a difficult key, say G#. When you get your rhythm going, transfer it to your digital metronome by "tapping in" the beat (the Korg metronome has this feature; you tap a button at your "natural" speed, and it adjusts the metronome speed accordingly). Every couple of weeks, check your "natural" speed. Over time, it will increase dramatically. The idea is to play fast enough to improve, but slow enough to maintain high accuracy. Just like the touch typing programs. Thank you, Mavis Bacon 8)

Al

[MattC]

If I remember correctly "crochet" is Brit for eighth note.

[Billy The Fish]

If I remember correctly "crochet" is Brit for eighth note.

Not quite - A crotchet is the traditional (classical) name for a quarter note. An eighth note is a quaver (and a 16th note is a semi-quaver). To complete the picture, a whole note is a semibreve, a breve is two whole notes (ironic since the word is derived from the Latin for "short"), and a minim is a half note. Oh, and a 32nd note is a demisemiquaver !

Note the spelling of course. It is crotchet (crot-chet) as opposed to crochet (crow-shay).

The above terms are the official musical terms (not just used by Brits - indeed most traditional musical terms are Italian, particularly those expressing tempo and feel). Reference to things like "quarter notes" are simplifications, and only fairly recently fell into common usage. Pretty much in the same way that you would now only tend to see the term (for example) Larghetto used in classical music, having been replaced with "Fairly Slowly" (or the actual bpm tempo value) for more contemporary types of music. A shame really, there is something truly beautiful about the traditional musical terms.

Billy The Fish

[MattC]

I stand corrected - thanks man. I still consider it "Brit" though... :wink:

I'm the product of a fair amount of stateside musical education. I went to a performing arts high schoo,l I was a performance major at Hartt and, when I was much younger, have taken misc. courses in performance/composition/arranging at Hartt, Yale, City College, the New School and Juilard. . .

The only time I have ever heard crochet and quavers, or even semi-quavers, is when I went to England in '86 with a big band.


Now you see what a bunch of ruely, uneducated, upstarts we colonialists really are!! :lol:

PS. Now go answer my Halion question in the Midi sections - I've been waiting for you before I make a purchase!!!