Reference Alto

[gophersax]

Does anybody know anything about these altos? I know that they are in the market now, but I haven't heard of any information/reviews related to it. Do you think 3,300 is worth it?

[singlereed]

I don't know of any dealers who have any yet. Our local one reckons they will have them in June, however with Selmer, that could mean they get stock tomorrow, or June 2004. That prices sounds reasonable compared to other top line pro altos or a good Mark VI.

[gophersax]

Well, I just looked at saxshop.nl and saxopohone.co.uk, and they seem to have it for sale. I'm just wondering if anyone has tried these saxes, and if they are really as good as they should be.

[MBushaw]

Also I see that Saxofoonwinkle (saxshop.nl) is listing the solid silver alto.
I wonder if these are just advanced orders?

[cc]

Does anyone have any updates of interest? Can these horns be tested in any stores yet or has the release date been pushed back again?

[bary01]

http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/sax/saxs/sax12/sax12.htm
Alto reference

[cc]

Thanks for the link bary01, but I was looking for some info that might be a little more current. I'm suprised there isn't a little more buzz around here about this new horn.

[JfW]

I've tried a ref Alto head to head with my Yani A880.

It was a real nice horn. It shared a certain brilliant (complex?) tonal quality with the Ref54 tenor, Mk VII, and Mk VI tenor I also tried that day that wasn't shared by any other brand horn that I've yet tried. It has been claimed that Selmer has a certain element to it's tone that is unique, and that may be true. It may also be true that Yanagisawa, Kielwerth, Yamaha have their own particular signature tonal qualities that are not to be discounted as inferior except in the ear of the behearer.

It's tone and ergonomics I enyoyed. I was a bit underwealmed by the stiffness of it's action and the presense of annoying sticky pads as well as a few leaks. Being the most expensive alto on the wall, I would have expected better of it in those catagories and would have insisted on a free and rather extensive set up on the spring tension and pad situation prior to purchasing it.

does that help?

[tommyboy]

Sounds like Selmer is being Selmer. My Ref 54 tenor had the exact same problems you describe: very stiff (but smooth) action, sticky pads, and leaks. However, after a thorough setup they are top notch horns.

[SelmerSaksMan]

JFW, I would like to see you travel 4000 miles plus in a cargo hold and come out without a single bruise or scratch. When you buy a horn, if your dealer is a authorized Selmer dealer, he is supposed to go through it and adjust everything. when you get a new horn, you need to play it a few months before adjusting the action, or you may end up too soft in the end. As far as sticky goes, I have never heard of a new horn having sticky pads, maybe sticky sounding, but not sticky. All that is is the pad being a little raw, the noise on my III went away in about the first 5 minutes. (After my tech adjusted it.)

[Dave Dolson]

SelmerSaksMan: I've not only heard of new sticky pads, I've experienced it - on several new saxophones - mainly a new Serie III sop. In addition to having sticky G# and C# pads (the usual), the spring on the G# was so weak I could not solve the stickiness without having the whole stack dismantled. Goodbye Serie III, hello Yanagisawa S992. DAVE

[SelmerSaksMan]

Dave, wasnt it only recently that you were saying that one of Selmers biggest flaws is that all the keys are too stiff? You cant just make generalizations. Either you were to do the repair your self that you spoke of, or you have a garbage repair tech. You need to take off 1 key to get that spring out, it will take a little fenagling (sp?) to get out, but you can do it, in about 15 mintues. If you ask me, that one spring is a pretty poor reason to throw away about 800 dollars. (you wont get the same as you bought for.)

[JfW]

JFW, I would like to see you travel 4000 miles plus in a cargo hold and come out without a single bruise or scratch.

And Yamaha / Yanagisawas don't travel the same distance, yet none of these horns I've ever played off the shelf suffered from any of this? And how exactly does airline travel cause sticky pads and stiff action?

if your dealer is a authorized Selmer dealer, he is supposed to go through it and adjust everything.

This is groth music in Bloomington MN. They are indeed a Selmer dealer and seemed a bit confused when I pointed out the problems and the need to correct them.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Some dealers are better than others.

[JfW]

Some dealers are better than others.

True enough. It could have been simply that particular attendee however.

What really makes me wonder is the story that was shared with me about how that particular Reference alto got to the dealer. The Sax symposium thing was in town just a few weeks before and this horn was brought to this illustrious affair by some Selmer bigwigs themselves before it arrived at Groth Music afterwords. I'd assume it would have been an example that was handpicked from the current crop for an event such as this. I'd also assume it would have been carefully set up to show off to everyone, yet it did have the issues I stated. Unless pads got sticky and springs stiffened up after the fact, I'd conclude that Selmer just didn't care to show off it's wares in proper condition. If that is the case, why?

[Hurling Frootmig]

You make a good point. You would think they would have taken the time to pick a great example but they may be so arrogant that they may have picked what came off the line that day. We're talking about Selmer and not Yamaha or Yanagisawa.

[Dave Dolson]

SelmerSaksMan: I don't recall ever writing that new Selmers were stiff. And, that is not my opinion. Where is the generalization?

I was told by a tech at the time that to reach the G#mechanism, it would require the whole stack to be removed. True or not, it was a process I did not want to have done. There were other issues with the horn and I was already in a selling mode. No need to go through that expense as well. True, I lost about $700.00 on that horn, but the replacement (an S992) was better in the long run.

As to "garbage repair techs", surprisingly enough, good techs are hard to find these days - even in L.A. Fortunately, I have access to maybe the best tech and consider myself extremely lucky to know him. When/if he goes out of business, there isn't anyone else I know of within 50 miles of me. And in L.A., 50 miles is a day's drive!! Oh, there are others, but GOOD? Who knows? DAVE

[jp3]

SelmerSaxMan,

You can't just make generalizations

You really should go back and re-read some of your posts before making such a comment to anyone else. For example, your rants about all Yamaha's being garbage.

I never heard of a new horn having sticky pads. Maybe sticky sounding.....

I play tested a new horn - still in the original packing with the foam blocks and ribbons holding the keys in place - and it had STICKY PADS (D, Low C, not the usual G#. And yes, it was a Selmer Serie III, not the Yani or JK that I played the same day.

BTW, If a pad doesn't stick, how does it sound sticky?

[Billy The Fish]

As far as sticky goes, I have never heard of a new horn having sticky pads, maybe sticky sounding, but not sticky.

That's odd. I have almost the opposite perception to you SelmerSaksMan. I have bought 5 horns from new - 4 experienced sticky pads to some degree. One was a Selmer (my beloved Reference 54 Tenor), which was the biggest culprit - especially guilty was the low C#.

I have also tried plenty of new horns when test driving them before buying. I would estimate that around half suffered from sticky C#s and/or G#s. I am a great admirer of Selmer instruments, and my Ref 54 takes pride of place in my collection, but there is no doubt that Selmers suffer from setup issues out of the factory, and the few new ones I have tried (including the Ref 54) invariably suffered some sort of sticky pad problem.

Mind you, to add balance, the Yamahas I have tried (including the YSS 475 I own) also suffer from this problem.

Billy The Fish (campaigner against horn manufacturer prejudice, and proud owner of a Yani, a Selmer and 2 Yamahas, bought solely on the grounds they sounded the best to my ears :P )

[SelmerSaksMan]

Dave, then your tech was screwing you over then, all you need to do is take off the G# key then push the spring out, it will be cumbersome, but possible. If he were to take the G# pad out, only about half the stack would have to go. I live in alaska, would you think that there would be many techs up here, in a state that has a population smaller than boston? There are 3 excellent techs in my state, 2 where I am, and one in juneau, the rest are trash. One of the techs is in the league of Emilio lyons, he can do anything. The other is also very good, not as good as the first, but very good. The other I know nothing of, except that he was trained at the same school that one of my techs were and he is a member of napbirt. I have been to LA 4 times before, we stayed in northern LA, we drove to vegas on the last 2 trips, in a single day, what is that, 250-300 miles? And we still had time left to explore the city.

JP3, your guys' rants are that Selmers are all inconsistant, and that Yamahas are very consistant. I have played one of every model, so according to you, they are all junk right? When I played the III in at the shop, I unwrapped it and cut the ties, it sounded sticky for a little while, but then quieted up, same with MY series III, (Only i didnt unwrap it.) after a few minutes of playing the sound went away. I use a humidifier in my sax, now it never makes any sound at all.

After walking in water with shoes, and you walk inside on a tile surface, your shoes sound like they are sticking, but they dont really stick right? I have played 2 different series III's, the laquered one at the shop, and mine. I have also played a mark VI with brand new OEM pads, no stickyness (sp) only a little sound until a few minutes of playing. When I dotn play my junker all summer, all the pads sound sticky usually for a couple days, then the pads quiet down. (Soon to change, got some jim schmidt pads!)

[Dave Dolson]

SelmerSaksMan: I can't resist . . . you've been in L.A. four times, and once drove to Las Vegas from north L.A. County. Well, that sure makes YOU an expert.

Just for the record, I spent 25 years in LAPD, retired as a captain from one of the traffic divisions. Then, after a stint as police chief in Whitefish, MT, returned to L.A. where I spent 12 years chasing video pirates for the MPAA.

I KNOW L.A. traffic. DAVE

[wiju]

WOW...

this is a great thread: traffic, cops and saxophones, nor even tarantino could think this better.

and it´s getting more interesting, jeje.

i stick around to see what happens.

hugs

[SelmerSaksMan]

I have driven to vegas TWICE, in the dead of summer, july 18th the last time to be exact, and we of course are tourists...

[King Bee]

Dave, bring out the cuffs! :lol:

[Dave Dolson]

I took off the harness a long time ago (but the cuffs still work!). DAVE

[averageschmoe]

dave, just curious but who do you go to? not that i'll be abandoning jeff any time soon...

[Dave Dolson]

averageschmoe: I go to Rhueben Allen in North Holywood. Besides the usual repair work, he's done two overhauls for me - terrific work. While he was out of the repair business and working for Boosey-Hawks, I was really hard-pressed to find anyone I trusted with my horns. When Rhueben opened his latest shop, I was relieved!

I don't know Jeff - who is he? Where is he?

DAVE

[averageschmoe]

rheuben? sweet, i've only met him once but i've seen a lot of his work. he's the best. i go to jeff peterson in mission viejo, a much easier drive and still an excellent tech. he does work for bill liston, jay mason, leo potts, sal lozano... a bunch of the long beach cats.

[Dave Dolson]

averageschmoe: Thanks. Would you please email his contact info to me? jazzdolsonATcomcast.net.

Mission Viejo is one of those drives for me that SelmerSaksMan would enjoy! Still, it is always nice to know someone else who can do saxophones correctly. I'll just have to factor in the cost of an overnighter to deliver and pick up. DAVE

[sabritas]

I loved the reference 36. Why did it take selmer so long to get that sound agian? The 54 was great but the 36 I think exactly replicated the old balanced action sound. The 54 I think produced a sound that was new and different.

If the reference alto is as good as the 36 then its a must have.

[T.J]

Woodwinds and Brasswinds (www.wwbw.com) has them now. Check it out.

[alsdiego]

Uh, T.J., WWBW doesn't exactly have them as yet.... if you click on the "Buy" button, you are informed of an "Anticipated Date" of November 3. Personally, I'm going to wait until the hype dies down and I can actually play one.

[AMASAX]

well, i once stayed at a Holiday Inn...in LA (!)...does that qualify me to know the repair scene in LA ? ... -not-

[dmcneill]

I have a black series III alto, which I own, a 90045 serial number Selmer mk6 alto and a model 74 reference 54 alto which I have on loan to compare.

The mk6 is in need of some tech work but is a particularly good instrument with good intonation and tonal quality.

I have been unhappy with a slight thinness to the sound above an A in the upper register of the series III. I thought it was just me until I tried the mk6, which has an overall richer, rounder, deeper sound than the series III and which shows no thinness of sound anywhere...my sound is consistent right up to the high F. The reference alto is also thin up top compared to down low but is slightly better than the series III.

I must say the reference sounds richer and deeper than the series III but is still not as good as the mk6.

I am going to sell the seriesIII, return the reference horn and get a good tech to refurbish the mk6, which I will buy. It is not a difficult decision to make as I am completely driven by sound and the mark6 wins easily.

Hope this is of some interest as it not often that one is lucky enough to have 3 such nice saxophones to compare side by side.